The 1989 Hart Trophy

[BladesofSTEELwFIRE]

Any way you want to look at it, Mario got screwed.

Exactly! One of the biggest injustices in the history of hockey! Did you guys around that time Lemieux actually filmed a spot for ESPN on what it would take to score 100 goals?

ESPN knew the player most likely to score 100 goals wasn't Gretzky or Hull but Super Mario!

 

[tazzy19]

Exactly! One of the biggest injustices in the history of hockey! Did you guys around that time Lemieux actually filmed a spot for ESPN on what it would take to score 100 goals?

ESPN knew the player most likely to score 100 goals wasn't Gretzky or Hull but Super Mario!

It's still not as big of an "injustice" as when Gretzky outscored Lemieux by 74 points in 1985-86, with the highest point total ever (215) and the most audacious assist total ever known to man (163 assists), and still lost the Pearson to Lemieux and his sub 50 goal season and 141 points. At least Gretzky took his team to the 4the best of the NHL (from 4th worst the year before) during his Hart year in 1989.

 

[The Panther]

(accidentally deleted my post in editing it!)

The gist of this post was to say, let's not overrate Coffey's effect on teams' offense. Gretzky scored 164 points at age 19/20 on a team with Coffey scoring 32 points. And, as noted, his PPG in 1988 was slightly higher than in 1987 with Coffey.

The Oilers scored 372 goals with Coffey (and Gretzky playing 80 games) in 1987, and then scored 363 goals without Coffey (and Gretzky missing 16 games) in 1988. Negligible difference. And the Oilers scored more goals per game in the '88 playoffs without Coffey than in the '87 playoffs with him.

(I mistakenly said, when I first posted here, that Coffey played every game in the '87 playoffs. He actually played only 17 of the 21 games. However, in one of the games he didn't appear in, the Oilers scored 13 goals.)

 

[The Panther]

ESPN knew the player most likely to score 100 goals wasn't Gretzky or Hull but Super Mario!

I did not know a network could "know" something that didn't happen.

 

[BladesofSTEELwFIRE]

I did not know a network could "know" something that didn't happen.

I said "most likely". (Mod)

 

[BladesofSTEELwFIRE]

It's still not as big of an "injustice" as when Gretzky outscored Lemieux by 74 points in 1985-86, with the highest point total ever (215) and the most audacious assist total ever known to man (163 assists), and still lost the Pearson to Lemieux and his sub 50 goal season and 141 points. At least Gretzky took his team to the 4the best of the NHL (from 4th worst the year before) during his Hart year in 1989.

All you Gretzky worshippers should realize that without that team of hall of famers in Edmonton the highest point total Gretzky ever had was only 168 points and he never came close to that again! Even Yzerman had over 150 points in that era!

Can you imagine how many points Lemieux would have scored if he was on Edmonton instead of Gretzky? I remember ESPN analysts discussing it and they said 300 points! I know that was hyperbole but the point is Lemieux would've shattered Gretzky ' s records if he were on the Oilers!

 

[The Panther]

I know that was hyperbole but the point is Lemieux would've shattered Gretzky ' s records if he were on the Oilers!

Fail.

 

[Irato99]

All you Gretzky worshippers should realize that without that team of hall of famers in Edmonton the highest point total Gretzky ever had was only 168 points and he never came close to that again! Even Yzerman had over 150 points in that era!

So you're assuming that getting 163 pts two years later isn't really close to 168... Double fail.

 

[Wrath]

All you Gretzky worshippers should realize that without that team of hall of famers in Edmonton the highest point total Gretzky ever had was only 168 points and he never came close to that again! Even Yzerman had over 150 points in that era!

Can you imagine how many points Lemieux would have scored if he was on Edmonton instead of Gretzky? I remember ESPN analysts discussing it and they said 300 points! I know that was hyperbole but the point is Lemieux would've shattered Gretzky ' s
records if he were on the Oilers!

What...

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/EDM/1982.html#skaters::

Gretzky put up 212 points, 107 points above 2nd highest point getter Glenn Anderson in Edmonton.


Tell me which teammate carried Gretzky there.

 

[Sentinel]

What...

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/EDM/1982.html#skaters::

Gretzky put up 212 points, 107 points above 2nd highest point getter Glenn Anderson in Edmonton.


Tell me which teammate carried Gretzky there.

This. Attributing Gretzky's success to his teammates is ludicrous.

Btw, I still don't understand who was scoring goals on all those hundreds of assists, if the next best player on his team had less than half the points.

 

[shazariahl]

Exactly! One of the biggest injustices in the history of hockey! Did you guys around that time Lemieux actually filmed a spot for ESPN on what it would take to score 100 goals?

ESPN knew the player most likely to score 100 goals wasn't Gretzky or Hull but Super Mario!

Too bad Mario was never on pace for 100 goals then. The next closest to Gretzky was... well, Gretzky with his 87 in 74 (pace for 94). Lemieux is 4th with 85.

All you Gretzky worshippers should realize that without that team of hall of famers in Edmonton the highest point total Gretzky ever had was only 168 points and he never came close to that again! Even Yzerman had over 150 points in that era!

Can you imagine how many points Lemieux would have scored if he was on Edmonton instead of Gretzky? I remember ESPN analysts discussing it and they said 300 points! I know that was hyperbole but the point is Lemieux would've shattered Gretzky ' s records if he were on the Oilers!

Imagine if Lemieux would have had some guys who were HOF worthy? Like if he would have had a 5 time Art Ross winner with him, or maybe an all-time great defenseman like Coffey or someone. Sky would have been the limit then. Guess we'll never know what crazy records he would have set.

 

[BladesofSTEELwFIRE]

I'm not saying Lemieux was perfect. Far from it. One of his biggest faults is he never worked out early in his career. When he was drafter he couldn't even run 3 miles or bench 180 lbs! There are junior high kids who can do that!

But in an interview even Gretzky admitted "I'm not as talented as Mario". In Gretzky ' s autobiography both Orr and Gretzky said as far as pure talent goes Lemieux is the best there is. Lemieux was bigger, faster, and stronger than Gretzky. He scored 199 points playing with Rob Brown and other minor leaguers while Gretzky only managed 168 once without the Oilers juggernaut with him!

I readily admit Lemieux could've done more to stay is shape but didn't do it. But as far as pure hockey talent goes you are in denial if you don't realize a 6'4" 200 lb.+ guy with Lemieux ' s skill is better than a 5'11" Gretzky. Size has always had some relevance in hockey!

 

[tazzy19]

I'm not saying Lemieux was perfect. Far from it. One of his biggest faults is he never worked out early in his career. When he was drafter he couldn't even run 3 miles or bench 180 lbs! There are junior high kids who can do that!

But in an interview even Gretzky admitted "I'm not as talented as Mario". In Gretzky ' s autobiography both Orr and Gretzky said as far as pure talent goes Lemieux is the best there is. Lemieux was bigger, faster, and stronger than Gretzky. He scored 199 points playing with Rob Brown and other minor leaguers while Gretzky only managed 168 once without the Oilers juggernaut with him!

I readily admit Lemieux could've done more to stay is shape but didn't do it. But as far as pure hockey talent goes you are in denial if you don't realize a 6'4" 200 lb.+ guy with Lemieux ' s skill is better than a 5'11" Gretzky. Size has always had some relevance in hockey!

Yet Gretzky has the 4 best point seasons of all time, the 7 best assist seasons of all time, and even the 2 best goal scoring seasons of all time, which is the one area Mario should easily win according to your theory of being so much more talented, etc (Mario doesn't even have the 3rd best, which belongs to Brett Hull). Oh, and let's not forget that Wayne absolutely destroys Mario in PPG average over their prime years (first 12 years), and also destroys him in playoff PPG average (pick any time period, even their entire career). Mario's best assist season is tied for Gretzky's 8th worst! Ouch. Mario once scored 199 points. That's great and all, but Wayne has 4 seasons better than that, and has another one at 196. Not bad for a guy who was "less skilled" than Mario.

 

[Wrath]

Mario was more talented.

Gretzky was a better hockey player.

 

[Killion]

Mario was more talented.... Gretzky was a better hockey player.

Not according to Dominik Hasek.

 

[tazzy19]

Not according to Dominik Hasek.

Hasek thinks Mario was less talented than Wayne?

 

[Killion]

Hasek thinks Mario was less talented than Wayne?

No. He thought he was MORE talented. Better than Gretzky. Way better. He quite frankly & honestly when asked "who is the greatest player youve ever faced and who scares you the most" (?) without hesitation says "Mario Lemieux". He demanded Double Coverage on Lemieux even if it meant, and it usually did, one Defenseman or a Forward leaving whomever wide open on the Penguins front line. He'd rather face a shooter of lesser talents the Mario any day of the week. Even then, a nightmare because Lemieux had eyes out the back of his head. Blind passes. Ricochet shots like he was Minnesota Fats. Hasek Stoned Gretzky on numerous occasions. Lemieux? Something else Man. Total Giant of an intellect when it came to offense & press, when press came to shove. Many, many many MANY people consider Lemieux the greatest player who ever laced them up.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hasek didn't play a single NHL game until 90-91 and wasn't a starter until 93-94, so I don't think he had some special insight into Wayne Gretzky. He definitely didn't have any insight into the 1989 Hart Trophy...

 

[tazzy19]

No. He thought he was MORE talented. Better than Gretzky. Way better. He quite frankly & honestly when asked "who is the greatest player youve ever faced and who scares you the most" (?) without hesitation says "Mario Lemieux". He demanded Double Coverage on Lemieux even if it meant, and it usually did, one Defenseman or a Forward leaving whomever wide open on the Penguins front line. He'd rather face a shooter of lesser talents the Mario any day of the week. Even then, a nightmare because Lemieux had eyes out the back of his head. Blind passes. Ricochet shots like he was Minnesota Fats. Hasek Stoned Gretzky on numerous occasions. Lemieux? Something else Man. Total Giant of an intellect when it came to offense & press, when press came to shove. Many, many many MANY people consider Lemieux the greatest player who ever laced them up.

What?! Hasek thinks a prime Lemieux was better than a past his prime, mid to late 30s Gretzky?? You don't say!

 

[Killion]

Hasek didn't play a single NHL game until 90-91 and wasn't a starter until 93-94, so I don't think he had some special insight into Wayne Gretzky. He definitely didn't have any insight into the 1989 Hart Trophy...

What does that matter from the comfort of your keyboard?

What?! Hasek thinks a prime Lemieux was better than a past his prime, mid to late 30s Gretzky?? You don't say!

Damn straight he said it including Gretzky prime.. "The most dangerous player Ive' faced". And I'm no Dominik Hasek fan. Hated his style. But hey, respect his opinion. Live with those words.

 

[tazzy19]

What does that matter from the comfort of your keyboard?



Damn straight he said it including Gretzky prime.. "The most dangerous player Ive' faced". And I'm no Dominik Hasek fan. Hated his style. But hey, respect his opinion. Live with those words.

The only problem is by the time Hasek was a regular in the NHL, Gretzky was well past his prime. You cannot go by the handful of games he played against Gretzky in the Canada Cup. Hasek faced a prime Lemieux all the time, as they were in the same conference, so he had ample opportunity to assess him as a player. The same cannot be said for a prime Gretzky.

 

[Killion]

The same cannot be said for a prime Gretzky.

He saw enough of 99 in his prime to be trusted. In the inimitable words of Pete Townshend "Who the Eff Are You" to be questioning it?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Peak seasons
Gretzky 205 points in 74 games 2.77 ppg

Lemieux 160 points in 60 games 2.66 ppg.

Very close

 

[Iain Fyffe]

All you Gretzky worshippers should realize that without that team of hall of famers in Edmonton the highest point total Gretzky ever had was only 168 points and he never came close to that again! Even Yzerman had over 150 points in that era!

And without Gretzky, Kurri never managed more than 102 points. And without Gretzky, Coffey never managed more than 113 - and that was playing with Mario.

I remember ESPN analysts discussing it and they said 300 points! I know that was hyperbole but the point is Lemieux would've shattered Gretzky ' s records if he were on the Oilers!

Well, if ESPN analysts said it, I don't know why we're still discussing it. It must be true.

 

[tazzy19]

He saw enough of 99 in his prime to be trusted. In the inimitable words of Pete Townshend "Who the Eff Are You" to be questioning it?

I wasn't aware that Hasek played against Gretzky in the 1980s in the NHL. Please elaborate...