The 1989 Hart Trophy

[The Panther]

Gretzky bombed in LA except for that one season when got blown out by the Habs.

You might want to be a bit more informed before making wild, absurd claims.

The season ('92-'93) in which the Kings were "blown out" (1 win, 3 OT losses, lol!) by the Habs was Gretzky's worst season to date of his career, L.A. or otherwise. He missed half the season to back injury and wasn't anything like himself when he came back. He and the Kings got going around March, and he then led the playoffs in goals and assists.

As for other seasons in which he "bombed" in L.A., I guess you are referring to the following:
1) 1988-89: Hart Trophy winner, 2nd-highest PPG
2) 1989-90: Art Ross winner
3) 1990-91: Art Ross winner (highest PPG, won by 32 points), 2nd in Hart voting, 1st-team All Star, 7th-best plus/minus
4) 1991-92: Most assists
5) 1993-94: Art Ross winner (highest PPG) on a crappy team

So, yeah, nice analysis you did there...

I even saw a Gretz interview where he really regretted not doing better in LA and not winning a Cup.

Well, duh! Of course. He went there to help them win, and they failed (but came very close, which was remarkable).

This must be in contrast to all those Gretzky interviews where he talked about how he is the greatest thing since sliced bread and everyone is his inferior. He's known for those kind of interviews, of course.

By the time he got to St.Louis he was a shell of his former self.

What does any of this have to do with the 1989 Hart Trophy?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Gretzky bombed in LA except for that one season when got blown out by the Habs. I even saw a Gretz interview where he really regretted not doing better in LA and not winning a Cup. By the time he got to St.Louis he was a shell of his former self.

With Hull at his side you would thing Gretz could've set up Hull for 90 goals but they never jelled and Gretzky admitted that himself!

As far as pure hockey talent goes Lemieux was better just like Orr said and Gretzky agreed!

The Kings got blown out against the Habs by losing 3 of 4 games in OT? Okay buddy, you sure seem to know a whole lot of nothing about Gretzky's time in LA.

Gretzky really didn't have a second line center in LA to support him. Kurri filled in but was out of place and wasn't benefiting much from the move at center, least on the offensive side of the game. Gretzky led the playoffs in scoring in '93.

 

[Regal]

Yeah... okay.

It's actually laughable logic

 

[BladesofSTEELwFIRE]

The Kings got blown out against the Habs by losing 3 of 4 games in OT? Okay buddy, you sure seem to know a whole lot of nothing about Gretzky's time in LA.

Gretzky really didn't have a second line center in LA to support him. Kurri filled in but was out of place and wasn't benefiting much from the move at center, least on the offensive side of the game. Gretzky led the playoffs in scoring in '93.

Come on you guys! You know exactly what I mean!

Gretzky won FOUR Stanley Cups in Edmonton but couldn't even win ONE in LA! It gives credence to all the naysayers who say Gretzky only won in Edmonton because he basically played on an All Star team but couldn't cut it on his own!

Lemieux made temporary stars of out career minor leaguers like Rob Brown. Lemieux REALLY made everyone around him a lot better and while Gretzky did that too it wasn't to the same extent Lemieux did. I readily admit Lemieux didn't win a Cup until he got Coffey and some other stars BUT it wasn't nearly the same galaxy of stars Gretzky had!

Even Don Cherry (loved in Canada) said back then those Oiler Cup teams were the greatest collection of talent EVER assembled in hockey history! Gretzky was just a part of a constellation of stars!

 

[Irato99]

Come on you guys! You know exactly what I mean!

Gretzky won FOUR Stanley Cups in Edmonton but couldn't even win ONE in LA! It gives credence to all the naysayers who say Gretzky only won in Edmonton because he basically played on an All Star team but couldn't cut it on his own!

Lemieux made temporary stars of out career minor leaguers like Rob Brown. Lemieux REALLY made everyone around him a lot better and while Gretzky did that too it wasn't to the same extent Lemieux did. I readily admit Lemieux didn't win a Cup until he got Coffey and some other stars BUT it wasn't nearly the same galaxy of stars Gretzky had!

Even Don Cherry (loved in Canada) said back then those Oiler Cup teams were the greatest collection of talent EVER assembled in hockey history! Gretzky was just a part of a constellation of stars!

When Lemieux won the cup he had 5 other Hall-of-famers on the team, 7 if we assume that eventually Jagr and Recchi will get in, that's 8 HoFers on the team.

And by the way Lemieux bombed big time in 93 and 94, getting eliminated by a weaker team in the 2nd and 1st round respectively. It's also a fact that Lemieux missed the playoffs half of the time while Gretzky missed only 4 times in a 20 years career.

 

[BraveCanadian]

When Lemieux won the cup he had 5 other Hall-of-famers on the team, 7 if we assume that eventually Jagr and Recchi will get in, that's 8 HoFers on the team.

And by the way Lemieux bombed big time in 93 and 94, getting eliminated by a weaker team in the 2nd and 1st round respectively. It's also a fact that Lemieux missed the playoffs half of the time while Gretzky missed only 4 times in a 20 years career.

I'll never understand why people always try to downplay the Pens cup winning teams.

They were stacked and won with and without Lemieux. (although he did decisively put them over the top)

I remember articles at the time questioning whether or not their top 6 was the best ever when they had forwards like Stevens / Lemieux / Tocchet / Mullen / Francis / Jagr / Recchi to choose from I think it was..

 

[BladesofSTEELwFIRE]

About Lemieux missing games and getting injured I will readily concede he was NOT good at staying in shape until later in his career. If he had simply stayed in shape he could've avoided at least some of the injuries he had.

I recall reading an article on Lemieux that when he showed up at training camp as a rookie he couldn't even bench 180 lbs. and he's 6'4"! He also couldn't even finish a 3 mile run and dropped out after 1.5 miles! Gretzky said in his autobiography how he was always LAST in strength AND endurance tests on the Oilers!

Look I love hockey and it's my favorite sport but these are the 2 best players EVER! It just shows that you can be a skinny out of shape weakling and still be one of the greatest hockey players EVER! In other words you don't need much strength or endurance to play hockey!

 

[shazariahl]

Come on you guys! You know exactly what I mean!

Gretzky won FOUR Stanley Cups in Edmonton but couldn't even win ONE in LA! It gives credence to all the naysayers who say Gretzky only won in Edmonton because he basically played on an All Star team but couldn't cut it on his own!

Lemieux made temporary stars of out career minor leaguers like Rob Brown. Lemieux REALLY made everyone around him a lot better and while Gretzky did that too it wasn't to the same extent Lemieux did. I readily admit Lemieux didn't win a Cup until he got Coffey and some other stars BUT it wasn't nearly the same galaxy of stars Gretzky had!

Even Don Cherry (loved in Canada) said back then those Oiler Cup teams were the greatest collection of talent EVER assembled in hockey history! Gretzky was just a part of a constellation of stars!

I would argue that Gretzky did a lot more to make the players around him better than Lemieux. The Pens consistently missed the playoffs (5 of Lemieux's first 6 seasons) and went no where until they assembled a HOF cast around him. The early years in Edmonton Gretzky had less help statistically than Lemieux. He had back to back seasons where he more than doubled any of his teammates in points. And Gretzky wasn't just "part of a constellation of stars", as you it, he was the guy who was leading the entire league in points, just off his assists alone.

There was a thread here a while back that showed the number of times players led the league in % of team scoring. Gretzky was #1 more often then any player in history. A different thread from a couple years back had a breakdown among playmakers on primary and 2ndary assists, and Gretzky had the highest % of primary assists as well. He did far more to elevate his teammates than any other player I've ever seen. And that includes Lemieux.

When he went to the Kings, he was able to turn the franchise around and make them a contender. Sure, they didn't win. But they weren't a very strong team (especially defensively) so I'm not sure why anyone would have expected them to do so. Bourque never won in Boston, that doesn't mean he wasn't great. It takes more than 1 great player to win, as Lemieux proved definitively by not even being able to make the playoffs most seasons until the Pens started getting him some talent to support him.

No one faults Lemieux for not single handedly taking the Pens to greatness, so I'm not sure how you could fault Gretzky for not doing the same in LA, especially considering he was leaving his prime and would soon suffer major injuries of his own which would reduce the window of time LA had to win.

 

[BladesofSTEELwFIRE]

It's just that with Gretzky there was such a HUGE dropoff.

He won 4 Stanley Cups and had 4 200 point seasons in Edmonton compared to ZERO Cups in L.A. and he the highest point total he got in L.A. was a paltry 168 points which is relatively low for him. That's a big disappointment anyway you look at it. Plus Gretzky was only 27 when he went to L.A., hardly an old man!

I will say one huge accomplishment Gretzky had that Lemieux couldn't do eventhough it was off the ice. When Gretzky was traded to Cali there were only 21 teams but within 10 years there were 30! That is largely due to his influence and impact he had on the sport. Decades before many couldn't imagine multiple teams below the Mason Dixon line but thanks in large part to Gretzky there is!

 

[Plural]

It's just that with Gretzky there was such a HUGE dropoff.

He won 4 Stanley Cups and had 4 200 point seasons in Edmonton compared to ZERO Cups in L.A. and he the highest point total he got in L.A. was a paltry 168 points which is relatively low for him. That's aa big disappointment anyway you look at it. Plus Gretzky was only 27 when he went to L.A., hardly an old man!

I will say one huge accomplishment Gretzky had that Lemieux couldn't do eventhough it was off the ice. When Gretzky was traded to Cali there were only 21 teams but within 10 years there were 30! That is largely due to his influence and impact he had on the sport. Decades before many couldn't imagine multiple teams below the Mason Dixon line but thanks in large part to Gretzky there is!

You obviously are not familiar with the 80's hockey.

 

[BladesofSTEELwFIRE]

You obviously are not familiar with the 80's hockey.

I know a LOT more than you. I grew up on 80s hockey and saw many NHL games live. You obviously can't count because that is a HUGE dropoff any way you look at it!

 

[MAJackson]

I know a LOT more than you.

Your comments in this thread are showing that you don't.

 

[shazariahl]

It's just that with Gretzky there was such a HUGE dropoff.

He won 4 Stanley Cups and had 4 200 point seasons in Edmonton compared to ZERO Cups in L.A. and he the highest point total he got in L.A. was a paltry 168 points which is relatively low for him. That's a big disappointment anyway you look at it. Plus Gretzky was only 27 when he went to L.A., hardly an old man!

I will say one huge accomplishment Gretzky had that Lemieux couldn't do eventhough it was off the ice. When Gretzky was traded to Cali there were only 21 teams but within 10 years there were 30! That is largely due to his influence and impact he had on the sport. Decades before many couldn't imagine multiple teams below the Mason Dixon line but thanks in large part to Gretzky there is!

Except his last couple years in Edmonton were 180ish point seasons. So considering he went to a vastly inferior team than Edmonton, a 12-20 point drop isn't really so drastic at all (about 10%). You can say he was hardly old, but by then he'd already been playing pro hockey for nearly 10 years. He'd already played more games than people like Bossy and Orr did in their entire careers.

Obviously he was still good in LA, but expecting him to get 200 points there is rather silly IMO. No one stays at their absolute best for their entire career. Gretzky had a 6 year peak averaging 200+ pts per season. It was inevitable that his totals would start to decline, which they'd started to do even before the trade.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

We don't need another general Gretzky vs Lemieux thread. This one isn't even attempting to be about the 1988-89 Hart Trophy anymore.

Closed