Golden_Jet
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The 10 best listed players are ... You can vote for 10.
- Thread starter Ben Grimm
- Start date
blundluntman
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If you look at the raw numbers they seem comparable, but adjusting for era, things start to look differently. 93 and 86 are actually around .943 and .937 (89 is at .936).
Now to be fair, Brodeur's 95 season is also a masterclass and actually stands at the top of the list at .944 (2000 and 2003 see a pretty significant dropoff though). I have to give Brodeur credit, I honestly didn't realize 95 was that good statistically. At the same time though, Roy did more with less and has 3 seasons in the top 10 that all came during his time in MTL, a team that wasn't the defensive juggernaut NJ was during Brodeur's time.
Golden_Jet
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I think the poll will show more than 5% or less, but am curious to see numbers.
Wonder if it’s been done before.
Lmao at that.
MTL was 4th in goals against the year before roy got there, and had consistently multiple top selke candidates, including a guy who literally made the HOF based on his defense alone in Carbonneau, and multiple norris candidate HOFers in Chellios and Robinson. Let's cut the crap about those MTL teams.
They had Brian Hayward getting vezina votes right alongside Roy.
Lets cut the bullshit.
HugeInTheShire
You may not like me but, I'm Huge in the Shire
This is a common argument that I see but in Montreal Roy had Larry Robinson leading the D and 2 o the best defensive forwards ever to play the game in Bob Gainey and Guy Carbanneu.
While Brodeur may have the edge in overall roster, people make it seem like it was Roy all by himself and Brodeur had a stacked roster.
I'm not trying to say Brodeur is better, because I don't think that he is but a lot of time Roy gets pumped up for his teammates and Brodeur never gets any credit because of his.
Don't forget Chris Chelios.
Roy wins all his vezinas with lemaire around, crickets.
Roy gets HOF dmen in front of him, crickets. But it's the first thing people bring up when it comes to broduer.
Trying to spin 0.934 as a masterclass for roy in 01 but not special for broduer in 03 (with SEVEN shutouts).
Ignoring the puck handling that actively prevented shots against.
Ignoring Broduer playing an extra 20 games a year
Roy took over a team that was 4th in Goals against the previous year.
VistamarCroissants
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Golden_Jet
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HugeInTheShire
You may not like me but, I'm Huge in the Shire
Marty certainly had some good defensemen sure, but don't act like Roy didn't have good guys when he had Robinson, Chelios, Ray Bourque, Rob Blake plus the 2 best defensive forward to play the game in Guy Carbanneau and Bob Gainey on his rosters.
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Stevens and neidermeyer are the FIRST thing mentioned (along with Lemaire) to discredit broduer.
But lemaire being with the habs for every single one of Roy's vezinas is crickets.
Chellos never mentioned.
Robinson never mentioned.
Ray Bourque never mentioned
Blake never mentioned
Golden_Jet
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brentashton
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I remember wrong from the beginning, but I look at the facts on this one again you has right.
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I said something similar to this in a different thread comparing old timers versus today. While I agree from watching hockey since the 80s and reading a lot that the big 4 are the big 4, I would bet at least to some extent with these type of polls, younger users just go along with the big 4 because it has been almost put into law on this forum. I never saw Howe, Orr play. I know that when I saw Lemieux and Gretzky play they are a tier above all other hockey ive watched. Thought the same about Crosby and Ovi when comparing them to the rest of the players they played with. I never saw Shore, Hull, Beliveau, Harvey so I cant give input other than looking at stats. Mcdavid imo, could get as high as 3. Really dont know what he could do to surpass 99/66.
Golden_Jet
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Poster made a poll
When did you start watching/following the NHL?
Curious of the age of the posters here, what is the earliest NHL you actually watched live (or on TV)
blundluntman
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He didn't have Chellios, Robinson or Gainey in 93 (which is the season that is at the top of the list with 95 Brodeur). Roy has played on some strong teams obviously, but his best performance came when those defensive HOFers were basically all gone outside of Carboneau. I've already given credit to Brodeur for his 95 cup run but outside of that one, his other runs don't even place in the top 25 on that list while Roy appears in the top 25 4x (3x in the top 10 alone). The 86 and 89 Canadiens were strong teams with good defensive support, but they weren't the 70s Habs dynasty; performing at that level is never an easy feat, let alone doing it 3x.
I brought up the chart to show Brodeur's 95, 00, and 03 cup runs weren't all equal to Roy's cup runs and that's still true. 95 vs 93 favors Roy because his defensive support wasn't the same caliber as NJ's trap. Even if you wanna argue Roy didn't "do more with less" every time, he still did "more".
I didn't call 01 a masterclass, I called 93 and 86 masterclasses, his 01 run is probably his 4th best playoff run which is saying a lot. Roy played with some great defensemen in his career, but he proved he could do it without them or Jacques Lemaire in 93. Nobody here is saying Brodeur isn't a great goaltender, he's obviously one of the greatest of all time, I just don't think he's on the same level as Roy and Hasek at their best.
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Lemaire was with MTL in 1993. He moved to NJD after that season. MTL was running a similar system.
If you don't think Brodeur's 03 run of 7 shutouts and a 0.934 is one of the best runs of all time I don't know what to say.
The habs were running a similar system to NJD. They couldn't do it exactly the same way because Roy was nowhere near Brodeur as a puckhandler tho.
A key factor missing from sv% is just how many shots Brodeur would prevent with his puck play, or even just the threat of his puck play forcing teams to play differently. Or the fact that brodeur would play an extra 10- 20 games a year along the way to the playoffs, so those cup runs in 00 and 03 were 100 game seasons for broduer.
Roy is below Broduer, and it wouldn't even be close if Brodeur didn't get robbed of a year in his prime by the lockout.
blundluntman
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Looks like I was wrong, Lemaire actually only coached Roy for a whopping 20 minutes of his career. He retired in 85 and returned to coach New Jersey in 94.
Brodeur's 03 run is stellar, but it's not better than 86, 89, or 93; it's right there with 01 and I wouldn't be upset if someone said it was a bit better.
The Habs were not trapping like New Jersey. It was a collective effort from their players (especially in 93), they definitely weren't a structural boa constrictor like NJ.
Brodeur's puck handling and the trap indeed played a role in his sv%, and he does get credit for being a workhorse (However, I don't think that's a good explanation for his numbers being lower, and actually suggests it's a bad thing. The Devils weren't making the playoffs by the skin of their teeth, he could've very easily taken games off if it actually impacted his performance). All that being said, it was very much a two-way street with Brodeur and NJ's system, and outside of his GP and win totals, nothing about his resume suggests he's better than Roy and Hasek let alone on their level. I'd actually slot him right in with Belfour as far as peak performance is concerned. He gets credit for his durability and outside factors, but that's what separates him from a Belfour/Lundqvist/Price, not what puts groups him with Roy/Hasek.
Also, if Brodeur was robbed of a prime season (which I can only assume would matter if this was about trophy counting), then it all evens out by that logic considering Luongo was robbed blind in 04 (Turco too more than likely but I won't even get into that).
