Terrible world cup ideas

[Jussi]

I'm Canadian.

The same applies to Canada, they haven't applied to host is since 2008.

 

[sandysan]

You're speaking as if the Olympics and World Cup are equal in the players' eyes. They are not. The players want the Olympic glory. They want the Olympic gold medal. They want to be etched in the pages of 100 years of Olympic history the same way they want to be part of Stanley Cup history.

The players don't want to replace that with a tooty fruity World Cup that has organized teams in a style more appropriate for a WWF pay-per-view event. Even if the World Cup had 8 regular nations teams and even if it was a TRUE best on best (of which it is not), the players would still prefer the Olympics because there is no lore attached to winning a World Cup. It's the very same reason some players turned down offers to play in the WHA in the 1970's for more money- there was no glory in winning the Avco Cup. They'd rather play for the Stanley Cup for less pay.

Your argument simply doesn't work because the Olympics and World Cup are not equal. It's not as simple as creating your own tournament and giving it a catchy name and creating your own trophy. It doesn't matter if you have all the talent in the world participate. The NHL through the World Cup cannot offer the players anything meaningful to play for besides money. If it was that easy, why is Wimbledon more prestigious than the Canadian Open? Why is the Olympics more prestigious than the World Championships of Athletics? They all have best on best or have the potential to be best on best. Some tournaments have built up prestige and lore through decades of history. The NHL cannot replicate the prestige of the Olympics for the players any more than the English/Spanish/German soccer leagues creating a new best on best soccer tournament to replace the FIFA World Cup.

The ship has sailed for the World Cup in hockey. If the Canada Cup was played regularly every 4 years since 1976, if they hadn't skipped 2000, 2008 and 2012 giving us 40 years or continuous hockey, then perhaps they could have built up some prestige along the way. The days of Wayne and Mario and Brett Hull and Brian Leetch playing for glory in the Canada/World Cup are over. They grew up at a time when the Olympics was not a possibility, so understandably they valued the Canada Cup/World Cup as a best on best. And even in 2004, a few of the old generation remained. It is 2016 now. This current generation of NHL players haven't grown up with the World Cup. If the NHL wanted to revive the World Cup and make it the premier international hockey tournament, they will need 40 more years of continuous, uninterrupted hockey to build up history. And even then, that is a maybe. So why would the players give up the Olympics during that time? You need to look at the bigger picture and be realistic.

Try to keep up. What the players "want" what they think of the relative value of the two tourneys is MOOT. The players want to play in the olympics because it is best on best, not because of the 5 rings. If it was simply representing your country the players would be clamoring to play in the world shampionships.

An Olympic final in god knows where with has been sent and never will bes is NOT the crown jewel of the winter olympics.

From now on, best on best needs the consent of the owners under any format. If the players don't go to Korea, the ONLY best on best tourney is going to be the world cup, warts and all. The owners are willing to abide this artifice one time ( and the bellyachers) in return for controlling the purse strings.

There was a time when the olympics did represent the best in amateur sport. Those days are gone. It is a non profit that simply is doing what it can to maximize profits ( including violating their charter to ensure that athletes are not exploited for commercial benefits).

The ioc can't hide behind the " soldier" canard any.more. They allowed pros in because it benefits them, provided that for 2 weeks we can ignore reality and pretend that the talent are not pros and like a born again virgin, deserve to play their trade for free.
In case you missed it, what the players want while the owners drive the bus is moot.

 

[Jussi]

Try to keep up. What the players "want" what they think of the relative value of the two tourneys is MOOT. The players want to play in the olympics because it is best on best, not because of the 5 rings. If it was simply representing your country the players would be clamoring to play in the world shampionships.

An Olympic final in god knows where with has been sent and never will bes is NOT the crown jewel of the winter olympics.

From now on, best on best needs the consent of the owners under any format. If the players don't go to Korea, the ONLY best on best tourney is going to be the world cup, warts and all. The owners are willing to abide this artifice one time ( and the bellyachers) in return for controlling the purse strings.

There was a time when the olympics did represent the best in amateur sport. Those days are gone. It is a non profit that simply is doing what it can to maximize profits ( including violating their charter to ensure that athletes are not exploited for commercial benefits).

The ioc can't hide behind the " soldier" canard any.more. They allowed pros in because it benefits them, provided that for 2 weeks we can ignore reality and pretend that the talent are not pros and like a born again virgin, deserve to play their trade for free.
In case you missed it, what the players want while the owners drive the bus is moot.

Yeah, probably in the 70's. Since the 80's, pros have been there. Or did you think Carl Lewis was an amateur?

 

[BayStreetBully]

Try to keep up. What the players "want" what they think of the relative value of the two tourneys is MOOT. The players want to play in the olympics because it is best on best, not because of the 5 rings. If it was simply representing your country the players would be clamoring to play in the world shampionships.

An Olympic final in god knows where with has been sent and never will bes is NOT the crown jewel of the winter olympics.

From now on, best on best needs the consent of the owners under any format. If the players don't go to Korea, the ONLY best on best tourney is going to be the world cup, warts and all. The owners are willing to abide this artifice one time ( and the bellyachers) in return for controlling the purse strings.

There was a time when the olympics did represent the best in amateur sport. Those days are gone. It is a non profit that simply is doing what it can to maximize profits ( including violating their charter to ensure that athletes are not exploited for commercial benefits).

The ioc can't hide behind the " soldier" canard any.more. They allowed pros in because it benefits them, provided that for 2 weeks we can ignore reality and pretend that the talent are not pros and like a born again virgin, deserve to play their trade for free.
In case you missed it, what the players want while the owners drive the bus is moot.

Oh don't worry, it's not hard to keep up with you. You only have one argument: that this decision is up to no one but the owners, and everyone else just needs to suck it up. No one here disputes owners can refuse permission to go to the Olympics.

Bottom line is players don't care about the World Cup. Ask any NHLer who's ever won Olympic gold post-1998 if they'd ever trade that in for a World Cup gold. You won't find one. And the fans don't care about the World Cup. So I keep asking what is the point of 2016 other than to line the owners' pockets? There is no point. Understand? Players don't care. Fans don't care. No point in World Cup. Except money.

 

[sandysan]

Oh don't worry, it's not hard to keep up with you. You only have one argument: that this decision is up to no one but the owners, and everyone else just needs to suck it up. No one here disputes owners can refuse permission to go to the Olympics.

Bottom line is players don't care about the World Cup. Ask any NHLer who's ever won Olympic gold post-1998 if they'd ever trade that in for a World Cup gold. You won't find one. And the fans don't care about the World Cup. So I keep asking what is the point of 2016 other than to line the owners' pockets? There is no point. Understand? Players don't care. Fans don't care. No point in World Cup. Except money.

Your comparing things in the future to things in the past. The olympics are valued because they were best on best. When that possibility goes poof, the uber competitive players will flock to the de facto best on best world cup.

And for someone decrying the money grab and giving a pass to the ioc that chose to allow pro players but never intended to pay them a freaking dime, yeah you might want to try harder keeping up.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Your comparing things in the future to things in the past. The olympics are valued because they were best on best. When that possibility goes poof, the uber competitive players will flock to the de facto best on best world cup.

And for someone decrying the money grab and giving a pass to the ioc that chose to allow pro players but never intended to pay them a freaking dime, yeah you might want to try harder keeping up.

It makes no difference to me who makes money. If the players preferred the World Cup, then the NHL can make all the money it wants. But I am not interested in an emotionless tournament that no one cares about.

So why would I care who makes money. I am not an NHL owner and I am not an IOC member. Are you? Yeah didn't think so. I'm sure the NHL owners appreciate you fighting on their behalf, but I'm sorry to say they won't share the wealth with you.

 

[Gaps]

And for someone decrying the money grab and giving a pass to the ioc that chose to allow pro players but never intended to pay them a freaking dime, yeah you might want to try harder keeping up.

I know you have already been told this, but I shall repeat it: the players don't care that they don't get paid for the Olympics. They don't get paid for the WHC either (unless they medal, which usually gives them a bonus that many players then choose to donate to charity). NHL players are millionnaires who get their money basically as mercenaries from the NHL owners, and they don't care whether international games make them any richer because that's not what it is about to them.

And hockey is not the only sport where players don't generally get paid for international play. They don't care about that either. You know why? Because to them, abstract things like honor and national pride are more important than money. That's why nobody should shed a single tear over the IOC not paying the players.

 

[FiLe]

The olympics offer an athlete something all the $$$ they make over their careers can't buy - a chance to lasting recognition and relevance.

For example, an average Finnish Joe (or should we say, Jussi) is far more likely to remember any Finnish player who made it into the olympic squad, even once and no matter the role, than one who had a decade-long career in the National Hockey League, but never bothered with the national team. The former will always find somebody willing to offer him a pint and a friendly chat, any bar in any town. The latter may get recognized as well, but he shouldn't expect similar treatment. Most likely people will give him a passing glance and figure he's better than well equipped to buy his own.

 

[Theokritos]

an average Finnish Joe (or should we say, Jussi)

 

[sandysan]

The olympics offer an athlete something all the $$$ they make over their careers can't buy - a chance to lasting recognition and relevance.

For example, an average Finnish Joe (or should we say, Jussi) is far more likely to remember any Finnish player who made it into the olympic squad, even once and no matter the role, than one who had a decade-long career in the National Hockey League, but never bothered with the national team. The former will always find somebody willing to offer him a pint and a friendly chat, any bar in any town. The latter may get recognized as well, but he shouldn't expect similar treatment. Most likely people will give him a passing glance and figure he's better than well equipped to buy his own.

You are buying into the notion that the Olympics means legitimacy. It doesn't. It's merely a best on best tourney, and simply.making an Olympic team means didly, or should.

Its not about money, it's about not looking through.nostalgia glasses to keep thinking the olympics are something they are not.

As for player prestige, the nhl Stanley Cup exceeds Olympic gold, as does the nba championships, tennis ( Wimbledon) and lots of other sports
But this isn't the 1970's, and you might not care if the players get paid but they will. The ioc is number 2 or three as most corrupt ( ncaa/fifa) yet you still view it through cloudy revisionist glasses like it's the 70's. FCS wake up.

The olympics are so inherently legitimizing that they have a hard time finding single cities to bid. They are an albatross ( look at the venues in Athens and bejing) and if the draw ( the athletes) start not going, the olympics start losing their shine that the rings can't save.

It still is true that the IIHF and IOC don't do a damn thing that the NHL can't do for.themselves.

 

[Theokritos]

It still is true that the IIHF and IOC don't do a damn thing that the NHL can't do for.themselves.

Apart from the fact that the NHL actually needs IIHF consent, whether you want to believe it or not. But apart from that, yes, you got a point. Unfortunately the NHL dropped the ball with that Bettman Cup tournament scheduled for 2016 and mislabeled as World Cup of Hockey.

 

[sandysan]

Apart from the fact that the NHL actually needs IIHF consent, whether you want to believe it or not. But apart from that, yes, you got a point. Unfortunately the NHL dropped the ball with that Bettman Cup tournament scheduled for 2016 and mislabeled as World Cup of Hockey.

The nhl needs iihf consent for what? To run a tournament of their design on their dime.

I don't think so. The league and the pa could tell mr. Mustache to go pound sand. The iihf is toothless.

 

[FiLe]

As for player prestige, the nhl Stanley Cup exceeds Olympic gold, as does the nba championships, tennis ( Wimbledon) and lots of other sports
But this isn't the 1970's, and you might not care if the players get paid but they will. The ioc is number 2 or three as most corrupt ( ncaa/fifa) yet you still view it through cloudy revisionist glasses like it's the 70's. FCS wake up.

Have you considered that it may be a matter of perspective? That the entire world may not think the way you do? I'd say that's a fact you need to wake up to.

Only those grown straight into the NA culture consider their pro league championship the biggest merit there is. For the rest of the world, it's mostly a handy way to grow a nice retirement fund, given that you're good enough. But if you truly want your name in the stars, there is no greater prize than the olympic gold.

It still is true that the IIHF and IOC don't do a damn thing that the NHL can't do for.themselves.

Think again. If the NHL wants to organize a true best-on-best international tournament (no joke teams), they actually can't do so using NHLers only. Currently only three countries, Canada, USA and Sweden can build the best possible squad using solely their top talent in the NHL. Even if we just limit our examples to the top-six, Russia, Czech Rep and Finland could not complete a squad without digging around the minors - so they must be allowed to use better players from other leagues. If they don't, it's hardly best-on-best if you have to use AHLers, and in worst case NCAA and CHL players to put together a squad.

And in order to get those players from Europe and elsewhere to participate... the NHL very much needs the IIHF's consent.

 

[Jussi]

The nhl needs iihf consent for what? To run a tournament of their design on their dime.

I don't think so. The league and the pa could tell mr. Mustache to go pound sand. The iihf is toothless.

Nope, they can't run an international tournament with national teams without IIHF consent. This has been covered already years ago. There'd be major legal ramifications to countries taking part and those countries alone would not do anything without IIHF's consent.

 

[sandysan]

Nope, they can't run an international tournament with national teams without IIHF consent. This has been covered already years ago. There'd be major legal ramifications to countries taking part and those countries alone would not do anything without IIHF's consent.

It's a private invitational tournament, they can do whatever the hell the like. It's not being run by a country but by a private company, and these are, very much, NOT national teams.

What is the iihf gonna do? Punish players for participating in a tourney organized by their employers and their union?

I can see the iihf wanting to be associated with this because if it goes well the demand for their diluted product drops precipitously. If the iihf had any teeth, how come they can't force the nhl to participate in the olympics by threatening withholding something from the owners or players? Because both would laugh

 

[Jussi]

It's a private invitational tournament, they can do whatever the hell the like. It's not being run by a country but by a private company, and these are, very much, NOT national teams.

What is the iihf gonna do? Punish players for participating in a tourney organized by their employers and their union?

I can see the iihf wanting to be associated with this because if it goes well the demand for their diluted product drops precipitously. If the iihf had any teeth, how come they can't force the nhl to participate in the olympics by threatening withholding something from the owners or players? Because both would laugh

There's 6 national teams there, the properties of which belong to the national fedeations and the IIHF. The usage of them requires permission from the IIHF. It's why EA's NHL games have not always had official national team jerseys becasue they didn't have an official IIHF license. For example, no Finnish player or coach would risk getting banned by our federation and IIHF from playing or coaching if they played for an unsanctioned national team. You have no idea what you're talking about here, son, so go do some research before you embarrass yourself any further.

 

[FiLe]

It's a private invitational tournament, they can do whatever the hell the like. It's not being run by a country but by a private company, and these are, very much, NOT national teams.

But there are national teams involved. As it has been told you twice or thrice already, apart from the Euro Leftovers and U23 YoungStarz, the remaining teams are put together by various national feds, as in Hockey Canada, USA Hockey, the Russian Hockey Federation, the Swedish Ice Hockey Association, the Finnish Ice Hockey Association and the Czech Ice Hockey Association - and they are NOT restricted to using NHLers or players in the minors under NHL contracts. The involvement of these national feds makes them very much national teams, and also means that the IIHF must bless the entire thing.

A friendly tip: Deliberately ignoring the things that do not fit into your version of the argument do not make them go away and turn said version into god's honest truth. All it does is make the one spewing the senseless arguments appear very, very silly.

 

[BayStreetBully]

There's 6 national teams there, the properties of which belong to the national fedeations and the IIHF. The usage of them requires permission from the IIHF. It's why EA's NHL games have not always had official national team jerseys becasue they didn't have an official IIHF license. For example, no Finnish player or coach would risk getting banned by our federation and IIHF from playing or coaching if they played for an unsanctioned national team. You have no idea what you're talking about here, son, so go do some research before you embarrass yourself any further.

The perfect response to an arrogant statement.

 

[PanniniClaus]

So a team like Latvia, featuring an over the hill sandis ozolinsh and a Canadian coach who trap the hell out of everyone, that's good for growing the game? A team that finishes 8th?

And I'd you want to root for an underdog, what team is more under doggy than a team full of young players who would likely be excluded by a nations depth?

As for who to cheer for, we don't have a problem cheering for fish, cats, bears and climatic events.

As for "growing the game" that's not the freaking NHL's job, they are a private company. Latvia has what 5000 hockey players total, let their federations grow the game, because, believe it or not that IS their job.

As for the anthem, bon Jovi has two albums of songs for young guns 1 and 2 (perhaps dead or alive or blaze of glory?)

Germany and Slovakia earned their keep at the previous tourneys and even if Germany lost their spot to the Swiss, you know the Swiss would have been competitive.

This is a desecration of the sport of hockey - this is pissing on it's very fibre. I am trying to think of a sport that would do this to itself and i can't come up with one at the moment.

 

[Yakushev72]

Half a century of antagonistic behaviour by the IIHF toward Canada (and USA to a lesser extent) and it isn't exactly surprising that the IIHF's tournament is an afterthought. If the IIHF hadn't designed a tournament it calls the "World Championship" so that it excluded the world's best players for its first five decades of existence, perhaps the demand for the tournament would actually be substantial in North America. None of that has anything to do with the complete stupidity of both the NHL and this World Cup though.

There is no way for the IIHF to win this argument with NHL fans. If they wait until the Stanley Cup is over, that means starting it around June 15 and ending it around July 5. Then the NHL crowd would say that it encroaches on their time off by falling in the middle of summer. You would probably get fewer participants then than at the current schedule. Any change would just create new criticisms and shortcomings. Don't blame the IIHF, blame the NHL!

 

[Jablkon]

It's a private invitational tournament, they can do whatever the hell the like. It's not being run by a country but by a private company, and these are, very much, NOT national teams.

What is the iihf gonna do? Punish players for participating in a tourney organized by their employers and their union?

I can see the iihf wanting to be associated with this because if it goes well the demand for their diluted product drops precipitously. If the iihf had any teeth, how come they can't force the nhl to participate in the olympics by threatening withholding something from the owners or players? Because both would laugh

You smoking weed or what?If you are so much just on money and bussines as you presented yourself here, you did not really recognize that using national logos etc without national federations consent is impossible?you also have not recognize that those national federations are members of IIHF so they probably barely could enter to any tournament they want without IIHF approval? And even if they teoretically could, why would they cause such a diplomatic trouble? You obviously lack basic knowledges about international games, you probably never attended an olympic event so please save our time.....

 

[JackSlater]

There is no way for the IIHF to win this argument with NHL fans. If they wait until the Stanley Cup is over, that means starting it around June 15 and ending it around July 5. Then the NHL crowd would say that it encroaches on their time off by falling in the middle of summer. You would probably get fewer participants then than at the current schedule. Any change would just create new criticisms and shortcomings. Don't blame the IIHF, blame the NHL!

I agree that there is no reasonable way to fix it at this point. I don't think there is any reason for a person in North America to complain about anything the IIHF has done since around 1977. It does a decent job of balancing the demands of various members. The reputation of the IIHF WC in North America is clearly the fault of the IIHF though. Perhaps if the IIHF hadn't spent over half a century tarnishing the tournament in North America then there would be some desire for accommodations to be made. As it stands now, the IIHF World Championship at least looks much better than this upcoming World Cup abomination.

 

[Canuckistani]

It's a private invitational tournament, they can do whatever the hell the like. It's not being run by a country but by a private company, and these are, very much, NOT national teams.

What is the iihf gonna do? Punish players for participating in a tourney organized by their employers and their union?

I can see the iihf wanting to be associated with this because if it goes well the demand for their diluted product drops precipitously. If the iihf had any teeth, how come they can't force the nhl to participate in the olympics by threatening withholding something from the owners or players? Because both would laugh

Just stop. You have no idea how international events are organised. No idea whatsoever.

National federations have to sign on in order for the national team and its best players to play. End of story. Even previous NHL-run Canada/world cups have had full IIHF and federation support. Why do you think that was done, just as an act of politeness by the NHL and its owners? Without the IIHF and the federations all events would have had nothing but Leftovers and Younggunz. Not that such a setup would have lost you as a fan.

 

[Hanji]

It's a private invitational tournament, they can do whatever the hell the like. It's not being run by a country but by a private company, and these are, very much, NOT national teams.

What is the iihf gonna do? Punish players for participating in a tourney organized by their employers and their union?

I can see the iihf wanting to be associated with this because if it goes well the demand for their diluted product drops precipitously. If the iihf had any teeth, how come they can't force the nhl to participate in the olympics by threatening withholding something from the owners or players? Because both would laugh

 

[KriminellPipa]

It's biggest audience is in Europe, only European countries want to host it, so naturally it's scheduled shortly after the European leagues are over. If that's not fine with you, perhaps you should ask the NHL to shorten their season and/or start it sooner?

...and with that in mind the scheduled today makes perfect sense, since it does not clash with any other major european sporting events, like the start or the end of the major football leagues, or the finals of the domestic football cups, or the finals of the UEFA cups. And so on...