Terrible world cup ideas

[Faltorvo]

don't get me wrong, i loathe the format they are using BUT

is there not a timing issue with the other leagues around the world and gaining access to players to build rosters from nothing but NHL/AHL players?

the germans

swiss, slovaks and the likes?

 

[ForumNamePending]

Many of the reasons I have heard in favour of this format, from the NHL or otherwise, don’t really IMHO hold up to any level of scrutiny. The 6 most common I think I have heard and my responses are as follows...

The ‘all-star’ teams are more compelling than Slovakia, Switzerland, etc - I think it is fair to say that on paper (and paper strength doesn’t always translate to the actual ice) the all-star teams, especially team ‘Euro-Miscellaneous‘, are stronger than what any country outside the top 6 can offer up, but as others have said, if the idea is so great how come the NHL hasn’t tried it out in the SC Playoffs? Surely team ’bottom half of the Eastern Conference’ would be more compelling than whatever team finishes in 8th place. Team ’bottom half of the Eastern Conference’ featuring the likes of Kessel and Voracek would also keep Leaf and Flyer fans engaged in the SC Playoffs… It would apparently be like the Leafs and Flyers are still in the running for the Cup! Finally, if it was such a great idea I don't think the NHL would already be hedging on it for future (at this point hypothetical) WCups.

NHL owners should be able to make money off of international tournaments players contracted to them are playing in. - Fair enough, but if this is one of the main drivers behind the tournament its continued existence is always going to be under threat by the owners themselves. If the WCup does make $100 million it would mean each owner would take home just under $1.7 million. I don’t think any owner who has a $5+ million/year player blow out his knee at the WCup is going to feel much better about the situation because they made $1.7 million off the WCup instead of $0 off of the Olympics or some other IIHF tournament.

If any country beyond the ‘big 6’ is included there will be tons of blowouts. - Just looking at Slovakia and Switzerland first… If we set the threshold for a blowout at a 4 goal deficit then over the last 3 Olympics Slovakia has the same amount and Switzerland, at a total of 2 (none since ‘06), has one more blowout loss than each of the Czech Rep, Finland, Russia, Sweden, USA. If we expand this to include all games featuring a ‘big 6’ country playing a minnow (including Slovakia and Switzerland) close games (2 goals or less) are considerably more common than blowouts. Since ‘06 minnows have played ‘big 6’ teams 54 times, 28 games have been close (including 8 Wins and 4 Ties/OTL) and 20 games have been blowouts.

Minnows can keep games close but they are boring to watch. - If aesthetics is going to be used as a major qualification for this thing why even bother after Sochi? I think we can agree that ‘14 wasn’t the high point for eye catching hockey but I don’t think the minnows were the only countries lacking ‘style’. If it is about style points international hockey should have probably ceased to exist after the '04 WCup… Hell, if it’s about style the NHL should have probably closed up shop sometime in the late '90s.

Inviting only 6 countries is fine as hockey isn’t soccer and these are the only 6 countries capable of winning. - Soccer is obviously multiple times deeper and more competitive than hockey could ever dream of being, but a couple of points about this one… A) I don’t think any sane person thinks hockey’s WCup should feature anywhere near 32 teams. B) For as competitive as soccer is the majority of teams that qualify (Qualifying! What a concept!) for the WCup have no chance of actually winning it and the late stages of the tournament have historically been dominated by a select few. In the last half century (that would include 13 tournaments) 8 different countries, all either European or South American, have played in the final and those same 8 nations account for 39 of 52 SF/Top 4 spots - 75% and 63 of 104 QF/Top 8 spots - >60%. On the other hand during that same period of time North/Central America, Africa and Asia have combined for 1 SF and 9 QF appearances, despite the relative lack of success countries from those confederations haven’t been forced, for the sake increasing competitiveness, to merge into regional ‘all-star’ teams… Why? Probably because it would be kind of lame.

It’s the NHL(/PA)’s tournament and they can run how they please. - This is actually a valid argument. It’s sort of the equivalent of taking your ball and going home, but it’s one viewpoint I can’t make a reasonably intelligent argument against… It’s their toy and they can do what they want with it.

 

[Theokritos]

It’s the NHL(/PA)’s tournament and they can run how they please. - This is actually a valid argument. It’s sort of the equivalent of taking your ball and going home, but it’s one viewpoint I can’t make a reasonably intelligent argument against… It’s their toy and they can do what they want with it.

The valid counterargument is: They can do what you want with it, but we can also do what we want with our time and attention and money, so let's show them the finger and go home as well.

 

[seventieslord]

If I recall correctly, when it was announced on TSN they said something along the lines of the NHL not wanting Canada/USA and the Young Gunz to be in the same side. Deep down they know that the optics of people playing against their own country would be bad.

wait, is it really Young Gunz with a Z?

 

[Canuckistani]

The ‘all-star’ teams are more compelling than Slovakia, Switzerland, etc - I think it is fair to say that on paper (and paper strength doesn’t always translate to the actual ice) the all-star teams, especially team ‘Euro-Miscellaneous‘, are stronger than what any country outside the top 6 can offer up

What Bettman and company fail to understand on this point is that if on-paper talent resulted in memorable hockey then the NHL all-star game would provide fans with endless classics instead of pointless games of shinny.

Player names are meaningless if they don't feel they're playing for anything.

The Euro leftovers and U23 kiddies might as well be playing for Team Toews or Team Foligno.

Will Mark Streit be blocking shots for the leftovers and will Jack Eichel give it his all for the kiddie squad? Why the hell would they? What's in it for them aside from a complete lack of national pride and a whole lot of embarrassment? What would they celebrate for after a win?

Inviting only 6 countries is fine as hockey isn’t soccer and these are the only 6 countries capable of winning.

As you point out, this isn't seen as problem in any other sport.

Of the 20 FIFA World Cups held since 1930, five teams (Brazil, Germany, Italy, Argentina, Uruguay) have won 17 of them! In any given WC field of 32 teams, only seven or eight have a realistic chance of winning.

In baseball there are seven powerhouses (USA, Dominican, Japan, Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Puerto Rico) and the few others (Mexico, Netherlands, Canada, Italy) with an outside chance of an upset or two.

Basketball: USA, then a huge dropoff to Spain, Serbia, Lithuania, Argentina, Croatia, and then no one else of consequence.

Cricket: No one outside of the British Empire. India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, England, and the West Indies (the only non-country team that I know of in all of international sports). No one else has a chance.

Rugby: dominated by Australia, New Zealand, England, South Africa, France, Wales.

Yet all these sports have championships involving plenty of teams, most of them with no hope of a win. Why? Because they're not dominated by a single league of greedy know-nothings like the NHL.

 

[Canuckistani]

Using Bettman's "logic" we should include several "best-of-the-rest" teams in the NHL playoffs made up of players whose teams wouldn't otherwise qualify so that we get to see the likes of Kessel, Hall and Eberle in the post-season.

Sure enough, it turns out the NHL is in dire need of my idea.

In the NHL playoffs since 2006, #1 ranked teams have defeated #8 teams in 14 of 18 series.

Clearly the NHL has a serious problem and needs to address the way in which #8 seeds are getting wiped out. So let's replace that 8th place team with an all-star squad of players from non-playoff teams and see if Bettman really believes his own logic.

 

[FiLe]

It’s the NHL(/PA)’s tournament and they can run how they please. - This is actually a valid argument. It’s sort of the equivalent of taking your ball and going home, but it’s one viewpoint I can’t make a reasonably intelligent argument against… It’s their toy and they can do what they want with it.

The intelligent argument to this is that they're trying to pass it off as a "genuine" international tournament. It is NOT an international tournament if it does not involve 100% national teams.

Start calling it what it is and remind people that it has nothing to do with the IIHF events, and that's it. Nobody uses word "international" in relation to, say, Spengler Cup and nobody complains. The NHL execs stop using said word in relation to the World Cup and there's no reason to complain here either, really.

If they don't stop doing that, their intentions are pretty clear. They're trying to pull wool over our eyes by making it pass as a shiny new replacement for a genuine international event - the olympic tournament. Interestingly, we have Bettman on the record stating that the organization of the World Cup will have no bearing on that decision, but obviously you can never tell the real motives with him. Could be he's saying that simply because he doesn't want to see the papers flooded with comments from the players defending olympic participation.

 

[Urbanskog]

Will Mark Streit be blocking shots for the leftovers and will Jack Eichel give it his all for the kiddie squad? Why the hell would they? What's in it for them aside from a complete lack of national pride and a whole lot of embarrassment? What would they celebrate for after a win?

Mark Streit will likely not participate, as he has expressed his displeasure regarding the tournament format.

 

[JackSlater]

Interestingly, we have Bettman on the record stating that the organization of the World Cup will have no bearing on that decision, but obviously you can never tell the real motives with him. Could be he's saying that simply because he doesn't want to see the papers flooded with comments from the players defending olympic participation.

Reading between these lines is pretty easy:

"I think the World Cup may be influential in terms of how we ultimately decide, because if it's as successful as we hope it'll be and we think it'll be, the Olympics becomes far less important, to the players, even," deputy commissioner Bill Daly said. "If the World Cup's a big deal, best-on-best tournament, why do we need to go to the Olympics?"

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl-announces-world-cup-of-hockey-to-return-in-2016-1.190879

 

[seventieslord]

Reading between these lines is pretty easy:

"I think the World Cup may be influential in terms of how we ultimately decide, because if it's as successful as we hope it'll be and we think it'll be, the Olympics becomes far less important, to the players, even," deputy commissioner Bill Daly said. "If the World Cup's a big deal, best-on-best tournament, why do we need to go to the Olympics?"

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl-announces-world-cup-of-hockey-to-return-in-2016-1.190879

OK, so then there will be NHLers in the 2018 Olympics then. Because there's no way this will be a success with the fans or a large number of players.

 

[xxxx]

It’s the NHL(/PA)’s tournament and they can run how they please. - This is actually a valid argument. It’s sort of the equivalent of taking your ball and going home, but it’s one viewpoint I can’t make a reasonably intelligent argument against… It’s their toy and they can do what they want with it.

The valid counterargument is: They can do what you want with it, but we can also do what we want with our time and attention and money, so let's show them the finger and go home as well.

These two quotes are right. You can do anything you want. I will watch cause it will be interesting. And, no there won't be any empty arenas, lol. Don't live in the bubble that everyone hates it. We will see after the tournament.

 

[JackSlater]

OK, so then there will be NHLers in the 2018 Olympics then. Because there's no way this will be a success with the fans or a large number of players.

Depends on who is defining success. Obviously the fans and players won't prefer it. The NHL will certainly make more money than it does from the Olympics and won't have to interrupt its season, so they will probably dub it a success regardless.

 

[Xokkeu]

Do we know if NHL players will be contractually obligated to play? Like an all star game?

 

[Canuckistani]

OK, so then there will be NHLers in the 2018 Olympics then. Because there's no way this will be a success with the fans or a large number of players.

The NHL doesn't have to worry about the fans because its being held in Toronto where the fans will pay to watch absolutely anything.

Whether the players turn up is the real question. I know that it wasn't uncommon for players to decline participating in past World Cups. In 1996 Jeremy Roenick, Mario Lemieux, Ray Bourque, Ulf Samuelsson, Tomas Sandstrom, Michael Pivonka, Dominick Hasek and Petr Svodboda all declined. In 2004: Sami Kapanen, Darien Hatcher, Nikolai Khabibulin, Valeri Bure, Sergei Fedorov and Alexei Zhamnov.

I'm guessing that the two joke teams make declines a serious posibility this time(especially among the insulted players of Slovakia and Switzerland) so I wouldn't be surprised if the NHL/NHLPA puts on some extra pressure to show up.

What this event needs is for some high profile players to annouce their refusal to play. The more it fails the more likely it is that we won't be left without a best-on-best event.

 

[FiLe]

I'm guessing that the two joke teams make declines a serious posibility this time(especially among the insulted players of Slovakia and Switzerland) so I wouldn't be surprised if the NHL/NHLPA puts on some extra pressure to show up.

If they intend to tighten the screws, they're actually creating a rather precarious Catch-22 situation, especially with the joke teams. The players may show up, but the organizers can consider themselve lucky if they bother to put even a half-arsed effort. If they pass on those who say "pass", they'll have teams that may actually bother to play - but a lot of the marketable names will be missing.

 

[seventieslord]

These two quotes are right. You can do anything you want. I will watch cause it will be interesting. And, no there won't be any empty arenas, lol. Don't live in the bubble that everyone hates it. We will see after the tournament.

No, everyone hates the format, that much is true. But I;m not going to lie, I'll watch it because watching it is still better than not watching it.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Look at the poll at the bottom. Do you like the new world cup format?

YES 52%
NO 48%

who and where are these people that like this format? I haven't met a single one.

 

[xxxx]

Do we know if NHL players will be contractually obligated to play? Like an all star game?

guys, the NHL made a deal with the NHLPA. What is NHLPA? The players of the NHL.

 

[Faterson]

The NHLPA is not a 900-member Soviet politbyro where everyone is obliged to share the same opinion. You cannot force passion if there is nothing to play for, because you took that away from the players.

 

[stars33]

Imagine if FIFA decided to have combined North America team to compete in the soccer World Cup. Because our nations were not able to compete with top euro teams. We as hockey fans can not accept this.

 

[stars33]

If bettman will not listen to the fans than maybe the fans must tell the players about their disgust of this World Cup format. I am asking all fans who use twitter please contact NHL players with twitter accounts. And tell them your dissatisfaction with this horrible idea of two joke teams in the World Cup.

 

[Xokkeu]

guys, the NHL made a deal with the NHLPA. What is NHLPA? The players of the NHL.

That's a great meta comment but doesn't answer my question.

 

[Faterson]

If bettman will not listen to the fans than maybe the fans must tell the players about their disgust of this World Cup format. I am asking all fans who use twitter please contact NHL players with twitter accounts. And tell them your dissatisfaction with this horrible idea of two joke teams in the World Cup.

I expect something may happen in the summer, not now mid-season when everyone is worried about making the play-offs. Usually, European NHL players go back to Europe for summer vacations, they meet in person there, etc. Well, at least Slovak players do that. So far, from among Slovak players, I've only heard Halák say he's OK with the new format, and Hossa say he dislikes it. I don't know what Chára thinks, but his voice as the potential captain of that Leftovers team will be very important. If NHL veterans like Chára, Hossa, Gáborík, Višňovský, Sekera issue a common proclamation in the summer, saying they don't wish to play on such a Leftovers team, and if they perhaps combine with Swiss players to issue such a proclamation (Streit said he hates the new format), this might still help persuade the NHL to change their minds, although the chances are slim.

I don't expect young NHL players like Tatár, Jurčo or Marinčin (let alone the Columbus rookie Daňo) to be openly critical of the format. Although the new format is especially punishing for those up-and-coming NHL stars. If Slovakia played in the World Cup, then Jurčo, Marinčin and Daňo would be 99% certain to be on Slovakia's roster. As it is, there's a 99% chance they won't be invited.

So, the stance of NHL veterans will be crucial here. If they unite in the summer and jointly say "No," (politely, but firmly), then I don't think Bettman & Fehr will be able to go ahead with the plan.

 

[TheTwelfth]

guys, the NHL made a deal with the NHLPA. What is NHLPA? The players of the NHL.

I don't think Hossa and Chara believed it would entail a Team Euro Leftover team over their national team...

 

[ForumNamePending]

Ya... Just because the PA signed off on it doesn't mean every single member thinks the format is awesome, or even tolerable. Players from team 'Euro-Miscellaneous' countries would make up under 10% of the PA membership so we aren't talking about a huge voting block (if a vote was even held). I would imagine support for the event was built through the PA potentially making up to $50 million. Perhaps some (many?) went along with it in hopes co-operation now could lead to co-operation later when it comes to Olympic negotiations.