Eye of Ra
Grandmaster General of the International boards
With no best on best tournament anymore, the WC should have higher status.
WC: TEAM USA
- Thread starter Gold Standard
- Start date
Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
William H Bonney
Registered User
Europe may care about the WC more than the WJC but it doesn't mean only North America cares about the WJC. The WJC is not popular in the US outside of die hard fans. I've seen far more welcome home celebrations for European WJC champions than I've ever seen in the US.
The reality is we have no best on best tournaments right now and it's a shame for hockey. I like most of the tournaments we still have but they're all flawed in one way or the other.
I have to think it would if it was held a different time of the year when all players could be made available. As it stands, it's aligned more with the European professional league schedules.
AmericanDream
Thank you Elon!
It should be but when you have to compete with horse derbies and multi millionares trying to earn Philosophy degrees over the early summer...good luck getting top talent lol
William H Bonney
Registered User
I'm not sure if it's a good or bad sign that we have only heard about 3 players planning to play. The US hockey media is a joke so it's probable we have more commitments but they don't care to find out (or don't have the sources) but it's been eerily quiet.
WarriorofTime
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2010
- 32,247
- 21,797
The World Championships is I think the better tournament since it involves professional players. The World Juniors is the better proximation of overall hockey strength since it's a "best-on-best" of Junior players (some people argue this point because of 19 year old NHL players that don't play in it, but to me, those are no longer "Junior" players and in the long-run it all evens out a bit... Canada may miss more guys than Germany but that one German guy not playing likely has a bigger impact than a single Canadian because they have more depth)... other than for smaller countries that don't have a lot of NHL players (i.e., you can make a better guess as to where Norway and Austria stack up with each other via the World Championships).
The World Championships biggest issue for North Americans is that they run concurrently with the NHL Playoffs. That alone just makes them a bit of a non-starter for popularity purposes. American NHL fans are going to watch their NHL teams in the Playoffs, they don't really care about a hodge-podge team of American-born players playing in some tournament. And the other big factor that runs with that is that the tournament is often in Europe (which makes sense, the sheer raw number (not weighted) of International Teams skews European so if everyone got a turn hosting, it'd be in Europe much more often), so that means the games are on at inconvenient times.
Even amongst NHL fans, the World Juniors aren't super popular amongst general fans, but the USNDTP has succeeded in building excitement/enthusiasm amongst the players, whereas back in the 1990s it was more so a random collection of players that didn't much reason to care to be there. For fans, the tournament being so frequently held in Canada makes it easy to watch, but the fact that the tournament is so often in Canada, or at best, a border town that is easy for Canadian fans to access, does show that it doesn't have nearly the same degree of enthusiasm as it does up north. The games are aired on NHL Network and they don't get a lot of attention quite frankly. It's a small contingent of diehard Team USA fans but it doesn't go too much further. I don't think it's super reasonable to expect NHL players to have a buy-in for the world championships to the same level. There are just too many factors going against it.
Even amongst a more popular sport like Basketball, there isn't much enthusiasm for the World Championships (now re-named the World Cup). We are a bit spoiled to have so many of the world's top sporting leagues in our country that.. for as patriotic as people claim Americans to be... international sporting competition isn't ultimately that big of a deal compared to our domestic leagues which people already regard as the "best of the best" going at it, with lots of local community pride/spirit behind it. Once a player hits the NHL, that becomes their job/primary focus. Risking injury and just overall wear and tear to go play in a competition that isn't seen as having much value in and of itself just doesn't make sense.
I think it is worth pointing out though, that the 'raw depth' approach has been producing better results. The USA has just been stuck on that Semifinal barrier. Last year, they lost 4-3 to the eventual Gold Medal winners and host nation, Finland in the semifinals, albeit after a pretty poor group stage. It was a pretty competitive game, with shots 28-26 in favor of the U.S. The year before they took first place in the group stage in a group that featured Canada and Finland, and ultimately fell to Canada 4-2 in the Semifinals and then won the Bronze Medal game. The 2020 tournament was cancelled. 2019 was a bad showing. 2018 was another bronze medal finish. 2017 finished first in the group stage in a group with Russia and Sweden, but drew a tough matchup with Finland in the Quarters and got knocked out. 2016 was another semifinal appearance. 2015 another group stage win and bronze medal finish.
Those are much better results than what the USA used to see. Canada will likely always have the edge on the "raw depth" approach of winning even with high NHL Playoff/decline invitations rate (and frankly, knowing they can win and the more intertwined nature of Hockey in Canadian identity means they will get better participation), so it's tricky to beat them, let alone the Europeans that have their Euro-Pros available and more enthusiasm from eliminated NHL stars. However, I do expect with NHL numbers by nationality being what they are (highest American rates ever) and given the results the last 8 years or so, an American team will break through one of these days. It took until 2004 for the USA to win their first world juniors gold, and 2010 for them to win their second, but since then the USA has been competitive at that level. I expect the same thing to happen at the World Championships as enough time goes by. Hopefully once the first team wins a Gold Medal, other players will see that it is possible and they'll want to join the party next time.
The World Championships biggest issue for North Americans is that they run concurrently with the NHL Playoffs. That alone just makes them a bit of a non-starter for popularity purposes. American NHL fans are going to watch their NHL teams in the Playoffs, they don't really care about a hodge-podge team of American-born players playing in some tournament. And the other big factor that runs with that is that the tournament is often in Europe (which makes sense, the sheer raw number (not weighted) of International Teams skews European so if everyone got a turn hosting, it'd be in Europe much more often), so that means the games are on at inconvenient times.
Even amongst NHL fans, the World Juniors aren't super popular amongst general fans, but the USNDTP has succeeded in building excitement/enthusiasm amongst the players, whereas back in the 1990s it was more so a random collection of players that didn't much reason to care to be there. For fans, the tournament being so frequently held in Canada makes it easy to watch, but the fact that the tournament is so often in Canada, or at best, a border town that is easy for Canadian fans to access, does show that it doesn't have nearly the same degree of enthusiasm as it does up north. The games are aired on NHL Network and they don't get a lot of attention quite frankly. It's a small contingent of diehard Team USA fans but it doesn't go too much further. I don't think it's super reasonable to expect NHL players to have a buy-in for the world championships to the same level. There are just too many factors going against it.
Even amongst a more popular sport like Basketball, there isn't much enthusiasm for the World Championships (now re-named the World Cup). We are a bit spoiled to have so many of the world's top sporting leagues in our country that.. for as patriotic as people claim Americans to be... international sporting competition isn't ultimately that big of a deal compared to our domestic leagues which people already regard as the "best of the best" going at it, with lots of local community pride/spirit behind it. Once a player hits the NHL, that becomes their job/primary focus. Risking injury and just overall wear and tear to go play in a competition that isn't seen as having much value in and of itself just doesn't make sense.
I think it is worth pointing out though, that the 'raw depth' approach has been producing better results. The USA has just been stuck on that Semifinal barrier. Last year, they lost 4-3 to the eventual Gold Medal winners and host nation, Finland in the semifinals, albeit after a pretty poor group stage. It was a pretty competitive game, with shots 28-26 in favor of the U.S. The year before they took first place in the group stage in a group that featured Canada and Finland, and ultimately fell to Canada 4-2 in the Semifinals and then won the Bronze Medal game. The 2020 tournament was cancelled. 2019 was a bad showing. 2018 was another bronze medal finish. 2017 finished first in the group stage in a group with Russia and Sweden, but drew a tough matchup with Finland in the Quarters and got knocked out. 2016 was another semifinal appearance. 2015 another group stage win and bronze medal finish.
Those are much better results than what the USA used to see. Canada will likely always have the edge on the "raw depth" approach of winning even with high NHL Playoff/decline invitations rate (and frankly, knowing they can win and the more intertwined nature of Hockey in Canadian identity means they will get better participation), so it's tricky to beat them, let alone the Europeans that have their Euro-Pros available and more enthusiasm from eliminated NHL stars. However, I do expect with NHL numbers by nationality being what they are (highest American rates ever) and given the results the last 8 years or so, an American team will break through one of these days. It took until 2004 for the USA to win their first world juniors gold, and 2010 for them to win their second, but since then the USA has been competitive at that level. I expect the same thing to happen at the World Championships as enough time goes by. Hopefully once the first team wins a Gold Medal, other players will see that it is possible and they'll want to join the party next time.
William H Bonney
Registered User
Lalonde, Gordon, Warsofsky Named Assistant Coaches for 2023 Men's National Team
Support staff also named; 2023 IIHF Men's Worlds is May 12-28
teamusa.usahockey.com
Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
It will be funny with so much Sharks' representation on the U.S. staff and they can't get someone like Labanc.
Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
To me, USA Hockey is going to have to simply open up the checkbook to get more NHL participation in events like this. It's in Finland, which is a nice place to visit. All expenses paid for the players/families to spend a couple of weeks. Live it up. Make it worthwhile. Otherwise, they are going to go to their cabins, the beach, or the golf course.
SanDogBrewin
Righteous bucks!
My biggest point. Timing of the tournament is awful.
ORRFForever
Registered User
- Oct 29, 2018
- 20,259
- 11,398
I disagree.
Unlike the WJR's, the WC is way too long. While I am happy to watch any World Junior game, the Round Robin World Championship games are often a bore / painful to watch.
I'd take the World Juniors in a blink.
AmericanDream
Thank you Elon!
WarriorofTime
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2010
- 32,247
- 21,797
Better as far as quality of play, obviously entertainment is in the eye of the beholder. But yeah, the fast paced nature of the WJC is definitely a bit more exciting. I agree that the bloated fields (16 vs. 10) makes the group stage (7 games vs. 4 games) a bit of a slog, and all of the Austria/Denmark/France/Kazakhstan/Latvia/Norway type of teams that are Top Division mainstays make finishing in the top half/Quarterfinals a formality that requires a lot of games to get to (while the WJC has a bit of a joke of a QF qualification process with 4 out of 5 teams reaching, it's much quicker and honestly feels more like a tune-up while players gel and find chemistry).
WarriorofTime
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2010
- 32,247
- 21,797
Also nobody wants to say it, but the downstream effect of not having Russia these tournaments (true whether it's Senior World Championships, U20, U18, etc.) is kind of brutal. Removing one of the few teams that you know will be competitive really just puts a bigger spotlight on the countries that really can't hang as all those nations "move up a spot". At least Germany is getting a bit better and Czechia is starting to get back on track as far as how they can compete with the big nations.
Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
That's one of the challenges of international hockey. The pool of top nations is very small. Taking a country like Russia out really eats into the prestige of a tournament. It's been good to see a Czech resurgence though.
therealdeal
Registered User
- Apr 22, 2005
- 4,742
- 383
Guys you’re somewhat overthinking this. Just enjoy the tournament or don’t. It’s super fun most of the time. The parity has come leaps and bounds, and (especially when Russia is in) there are like 5-6 teams that have a chance at winning every year.
Sucks the good US players turn it down for whatever reason, but it makes them a fun underdog which you won’t ever be able to say about U-18’s, WJC, best on best, and especially women.
Cheer on the guys that go, and forget about the ones that don’t.
Sucks the good US players turn it down for whatever reason, but it makes them a fun underdog which you won’t ever be able to say about U-18’s, WJC, best on best, and especially women.
Cheer on the guys that go, and forget about the ones that don’t.
Zero Pucks Given
American Hero
The WCs in the 2000s had 4 team groups for the preliminary stage. Perhaps the IIHF could roll with that again but remove that weird "qualifying" round in between?
As much as the Russians are actual competition in IIHF tournaments... **** their invasion.
AmericanDream
Thank you Elon!
We can still bitch at these guys consistently turning down playing for their country & enjoy the tournament same time. Some of us have 20 years of experience on here doing just that...
Eye of Ra
Grandmaster General of the International boards
Really? I thought all Americans did not Care about wc? Do you only watch USAs games?
Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
No, we watch Sweden's as well. The real powerhouse.
William H Bonney
Registered User
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