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Team toughness

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nyr2k2 said:
Right. And this is the case because more often than not, if one of our guys is getting run, it's not by 4th-line-goon, but by some other random guy in the lineup. The enforcer isn't out there to enforce anything because he's generally ****ty. And then you can't just send him out there to beat the guy's ass later because a) you expose yourself and b) there's an instigator penalty. It's why the concept of a real enforcer has disappeared.
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Yeah, and you get an instigator if the guy will even fight you. Most of the times, he won't, so the payoff is getting maybe one good shot in before he turtles and everyone else jumps in and the risk is a two-to-seven minute penalty kill. No one is being deterred by that, especially since a disproportionately high part of the cheap shotting community are fringe NHLers who very financially motivated by not showing fear.

GeorgeKaplan said:
I’m not saying it lasted all that long, but I remember that being a big story the year he got his selke
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I bet AV would believe his own legend.
 
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True Blue said:
Team toughness starts with a certain type of mentality. That mentality can only be instilled by 1) coaches 2) FO that brings certain types of mentalities into the locker room. There is a blend that has to take place, but the tone from the top sets the pace.
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So how many players are on your list?

It's great to say bring in toughness who also has talent, I'd be all for it but those players who actually play above a 3rd line or bottom pair are pretty rare.
 
Off Sides said:
It's great to say bring in toughness who also has talent, I'd be all for it but those players who actually play above a 3rd line or bottom pair are pretty rare.
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I am not disputing that they are rare. As I said, there is a tone from the top. Make it a point of finding the Roussels of the world. Heck, even the Gallaghers . Find and develop. Meanwhile make it a point to draft guys who do not shy away from corners. Or at least have those players in mind when drafting.
 
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nyr2k2 said:
It is kind of a curiosity that AV espoused this "turn the other cheek" mentality yet always wanted a designated goon on his roster. It's like he was totally averse to any type of after-the-whistle stuff unless it came from one specific player. Bizarre.
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My take on it is that it originates with his AV's own role as a player back in a day. Consciously or subconsciously AV has been protecting the role of a 4th line goon by requiring everyone else to turn the other cheek.
 
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True Blue said:
I am not disputing that they are rare. As I said, there is a tone from the top. Make it a point of finding the Roussels of the world. Heck, even the Gallaghers . Find and develop. Meanwhile make it a point to draft guys who do not shy away from corners. Or at least have those players in mind when drafting.
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There must be a reason those players are rare though.

Perhaps it's because the game has changed to the point where those who are more talented are gravitating towards the talent aspect, where as the lesser talented players are gravitating towards the toughness aspect?

So while the two traits may not be mutually exclusive, both being embodied into one player is becoming exceedingly rare?
 
kovazub94 said:
My take on it is that it originates with his AV's own role as a player back in a day. Consciously or subconsciously AV has been protecting the role of a 4th line goon by requiring everyone else to turn the other cheek.
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That's an interesting take. Could be.
 
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True Blue said:
I am not disputing that they are rare. As I said, there is a tone from the top. Make it a point of finding the Roussels of the world. Heck, even the Gallaghers . Find and develop. Meanwhile make it a point to draft guys who do not shy away from corners. Or at least have those players in mind when drafting.
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The problem with finding them is that they’re usually getting points in juniors because they’re bigger or stronger than their peers rather than being skilled enough to play when competition gets tougher, they’re about as hard to predict as goalies are. We’ve drafted a decent amount of them, the most successful being Dale Weise, or I guess Kreider if you think of him as one of these types of players
 
You need tough guys but you need them to actually be good.

It's better to draft them because if not teams wind up overpaying for these types.
 
These "discussions" always go well...

*Moar ToFFness
*Skill over ToFFness
*Complicated Stats
*ToffNess is obsolete
*(enter team name here)....won the Stanley Cup w/o Toffness
*blah, blah, blah
*rinse and repeat

Will not be dragged back into one of these again.
 
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Pizza said:
These "discussions" always go well...

*Moar ToFFness
*Skill over ToFFness
*Complicated Stats
*ToffNess is obsolete
*(enter team name here)....won the Stanley Cup w/o Toffness
*blah, blah, blah
*rinse and repeat

Will not be dragged back into one of these again.
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Thank you for your contribution.
 
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This might be crazy, but I would say that there are already a number of tough guys on the Rangers. But they have been coached to extremely turn-the-other-cheek, so to speak. I have a feeling that a guy like Kreider would be more willing to mix it up under a coach who supported it more. He had quite notably-higher penalty minute numbers pre-AV. I mean, PIM isn’t necessarily good or bad. But just my sense.
 
It's interesting that one guy we had who was meant to be a bit in-your-face and PIA to play against was Miller. That was a big part of his pre-draft write ups, and even the narrative for the first season or two after he started playing NHL/AHL. The scouting report was that even if the points didn't come (and many, including me who was a fan {and still am} but didn't see 50+ point upside) he would be a hard-nosed PIA 3rd line center.

Obviously there were some other issues at play with Miller, but did that 'edge' diminish naturally, or was it suppressed by AV, and if the later, was that one of the bigger 'issues' between he and AV?
 
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mike14 said:
It's interesting that one guy we had who was meant to be a bit in-your-face and PIA to play against was Miller. That was a big part of his pre-draft write ups, and even the narrative for the first season or two after he started playing NHL/AHL. The scouting report was that even if the points didn't come (and many, including me who was a fan {and still am} but didn't see 50+ point upside) he would be a hard-nosed PIA 3rd line center.

Obviously there were some other issues at play with Miller, but did that 'edge' diminish naturally, or was it suppressed by AV, and if the later, was that one of the bigger 'issues' between he and AV?
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This is one I would absolutely credit to AV.

I wrote about it three years ago: Rangers Unlimited | Confusion Over Miller’s Fight is Confusing and I’m Confused
 
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Rangers have been very soft the last couple/three years—that’s somewhat or even a lot on AV but really I think there was only a handful of players he was ever holding back. The last straw was Nashville this year. Two guys concussed on separate plays within a minute with no credible response.

Look at the Bruins who have a well earned reputation for team toughness. If someone says of one of their players ‘he plays like a Bruin’ you know exactly what they’re talking about—the reputation precedes itself and practically every rookie on their team will get into a fight or two in their first year almost as a rite of initiation. They are a proactive physical team led by a nasty agitator Marchand but there’s always two or three someones who can take care of business—if it’s not Lucic or Thornton—it’s Chara, McQuaid or Kevan Miller.

There are tough guys out there but they don’t all have to be in your top 6 forwards or top 4 d-men but it’s necessary that they can play like a Roussel or a Foligno. The Rangers the past several years have not tried to get guys like that.

I’ll note one other thing—the unpredictability factor. Goons are usually very predictable. Having some crazy on your side is not always a bad thing.
 
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I guess this post applies for both the JG and this thread.

AV doesn't allow for "toughness" simply because he thinks that the time/energy spent making a hit is better served just focusing on moving the puck into the offensive zone and creating chances, all while completely dismissing the benefits of playing a physical game.

Take the opposing players out/off their game.
Wear them down physically and mentally, especially their D.
Clear your own crease, block shots and give your goalie a chance to make saves.
Create time and space.

Hockey is a very competitive and physical sport and with that comes emotion which leads to character.

Voynov = shit character.

Stamkos = great character.

This isn't rocket science.

The best teams in the league have great character, leadership, skill and grit.

See..Winnipeg, Tampa, Boston, Nashville, LV..Etc
 
mike14 said:
It's interesting that one guy we had who was meant to be a bit in-your-face and PIA to play against was Miller. That was a big part of his pre-draft write ups, and even the narrative for the first season or two after he started playing NHL/AHL. The scouting report was that even if the points didn't come (and many, including me who was a fan {and still am} but didn't see 50+ point upside) he would be a hard-nosed PIA 3rd line center.

Obviously there were some other issues at play with Miller, but did that 'edge' diminish naturally, or was it suppressed by AV, and if the later, was that one of the bigger 'issues' between he and AV?
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It was pretty obvious they would be canning AV, so I doubt they traded Miller in favor of AV.

Miller always seemed stubborn. Idk. Had high hopes him.

He’s a natural center who isn’t great at center in the NHL.
 
Pizza said:
Nothing personal. Just one too many turns on that carousel.

The guys that think some level of toughness is important rarely change their minds same with the other side of the discussion.

Almost a political/ideological discussion in some respects.
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I don't disagree, just find it out when someone joins in a conversation to let everyone know of his lack of interest in participating in the conversation.
 
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