Team sucks despite having alot of last year's problems correct themselves. Why?

[Leonardo87]

stepan has been invisble most of the year. We dont need him to score 25 goals but he needs to be more active on the puck and make better passes to nash and kreider. With those 2 on his line there is no reason why he shouldt be getting a ton of assists

Yeah totally agree. Maybe need to swap Richards and Stepan, and pair up Stepan with Cally and Zucc.

 

[kvakklunch]

Cally needs to earn top minutes. I think Hagelin has earned top 6 minutes more than Callahan. He needs a wake up call anyways.

 

[JCrusher*]

Yeah totally agree. Maybe need to swap Richards and Stepan, and pair up Stepan with Cally and Zucc.

Not sure about that. Nash-Richards-Kreider didnt seem to work. Nash and Richards dont have teh type of chemistry we originally thought.

 

[Machinehead]

Cally needs to earn top minutes. I think Hagelin has earned top 6 minutes more than Callahan. He needs a wake up call anyways.

Neither one has earned anything even resembling top 6 minutes.

 

[Puckface NYR*]

Cohesion and communication are good points! I watch Rangers games and I see the same problem that we seem to be suffering, a general discombobulation and total inconsistency.

Good news is there's lots of season left.

On a side note, you guys also seem to be suffering from the same problem we have where your big guns mysteriously stop producing. I have a feeling it's the way the organizations handle these type of players that leads to this.

Can't wait to play you guys in the Stadium Series! Haha

We have two big guns on the team. Anyone else who is saying otherwise is mistaken.

Nash is a big gun and he has been producing. And McDonagh is the other.

Hopefully we have another in Kreider. Stepan is not a big gun and neither is Richards. Anyone believe they are is wearing big homer goggles.

Although, I agree, Stepan hasn't been as good as he should be this year. That said, he's still putting up a fair amount of points.

 

[haveandare]

They corrected a lot of problems from last year, but they developed a huge weakness where they used to have a strength, and that is in their battle level and overall cohesion as a team. Torts had a lot of problems, but getting a team to think and act as one unit is/was undoubtedly his strength as a coach, and IMO, the inability to get a team to think and act as one like that is the most glaring weakness of AV as a coach. Ask VAN fans - they largely think that no matter what happens game to game, their team is going to come out hard and they are going to stand up for each other in every way, and they're happy that's that case with Torts as opposed to AV.

I'm not sure what the answer is really. I doubt that AV is going to gain that part of coaching at this point in his career. I think it's largely a personality thing. Torts' personality demanded that his team play that way first and foremost. If you didn't play that way, you didn't play. That was the litmus test. In many ways, that was problematic, however, it did lead to a good team attitude most of the time. The leaders on the team, in terms of players (Cally, Girardi, Staal, Hank, McD), don't really have that intensity. They seem like great guys, and they do their damnedest to lead by example, often succeeding, but they're not the kind of guys that are going to demand that everyone get behind each other and make teammates accountable when they fail to. This team would really benefit from a player like that, especially a vet, who makes the other guys want to follow them into anything.

 

[Zats Muccarello]

Lack of consistency from core players like Staal, Girardi, MDZ, Callahan and Hank have all been contributing factors. Would move all of those players besides Hank for the right return. This team could use more offensive minded players.

 

[Cake or Death]

They corrected a lot of problems from last year, but they developed a huge weakness where they used to have a strength, and that is in their battle level and overall cohesion as a team. Torts had a lot of problems, but getting a team to think and act as one unit is/was undoubtedly his strength as a coach, and IMO, the inability to get a team to think and act as one like that is the most glaring weakness of AV as a coach. Ask VAN fans - they largely think that no matter what happens game to game, their team is going to come out hard and they are going to stand up for each other in every way, and they're happy that's that case with Torts as opposed to AV.

I'm not sure what the answer is really. I doubt that AV is going to gain that part of coaching at this point in his career. I think it's largely a personality thing. Torts' personality demanded that his team play that way first and foremost. If you didn't play that way, you didn't play. That was the litmus test. In many ways, that was problematic, however, it did lead to a good team attitude most of the time. The leaders on the team, in terms of players (Cally, Girardi, Staal, Hank, McD), don't really have that intensity. They seem like great guys, and they do their damnedest to lead by example, often succeeding, but they're not the kind of guys that are going to demand that everyone get behind each other and make teammates accountable when they fail to. This team would really benefit from a player like that, especially a vet, who makes the other guys want to follow them into anything.

Good post. You presented a fair, honest assessment of both Torts and AV, and of the roster. I agree with you, as I think most informed posters would, that both coaches do have their strengths and weaknesses.

I am not sure why a few posters are chiming in that fans here thought AV would solve the team's scoring issues when anyone who watched him in Vancouver knew he was more of a defensive tilted coach. That is likewise the impression I got when I lived near Van and from my many friends out there. I also don't understand why these same posters don't seem to realize that 99 percent of the posters here do realize the problems are up top with Sather. But since we recognize we are stuck with Slats you try to make the best you can with what's below him, and Tortorella was no longer that guy. The team plateaued with Torts and was trending the other way. A change was needed.

Both Renney and Torts were imperfect, as most coaches are. But both guys also did their share of valuable things for the organization, and they were given ample time to do so. I thought it was clear as day that Torts' time had reached its end and the players were no longer responding to him. I did not think AV was the right replacement choice personally, but hopefully I am wrong. At the moment, however, AV will still need some level of legit time before any of us can fully grade his tenure here.

Whether AV is that change is impossible to say this early in. Based on what I saw of him in Vancouver, I personally think he was hired way too hastily. But 30 games is still way too soon to judge a guy. At the 30 game marker in his first full season, Torts was 14-14-2, and the team was in the middle of losing 13 of 18 games en route to missing the playoffs. The team turned out decent enough the few following seasons. Any new coach needs that same traction to get a real estimate of their worth, as good, bad or mediocre starts over short spans can be very inaccurate reflections of how the team will play over the long haul. GMs also need time to effectively adjust personnel to suit a particular coach's strengths and weaknesses.

The one thing people cannot do is operate in some fantasy vacuum and think building a championship caliber team is easy when there are 29 other GMs, coaching staffs, and teams vying for the exact same goal. It is not easy at all. Especially when we have been burdened with a Pejorative Slured GM who has a free pass and no apparent accountability.

 

[Tawnos]

They corrected a lot of problems from last year, but they developed a huge weakness where they used to have a strength, and that is in their battle level and overall cohesion as a team. Torts had a lot of problems, but getting a team to think and act as one unit is/was undoubtedly his strength as a coach

That's a good post overall. I don't want to belittle Tortorella's effect on that part of the game, but would also like to point out that Chris Drury's injury in 10-11 opened up a leadership vacuum that some young and homegrown players (Cally, Staal, Dubinsky) stepped right in to fill. Until that point, the team was still too even keeled, to the point of missing the playoffs the year before, despite a desperate drive at the end. Yes, the 10-11 team was better than the 09-10 team simply from natural player growth... but the players bear an enormous amount of the responsibility for a lot of what Torts gets credit for (same with every coach, really)

 

[Leonardo87]

Cally needs to earn top minutes. I think Hagelin has earned top 6 minutes more than Callahan. He needs a wake up call anyways.

Hagelin has been kinda quiet as of late. He has 1 point in the last 5 games,

 

[Gardner McKay]

Yeah, but Staal looked great under Torts pre-injury.

He also looked Stellar in pre season.

 

[bernmeister]

Reason to thread title ? is we don't have enough horses, and we are mostly unwilling to do what it takes to change that!

We have made great strides with last group of players and expect great things from draftees. But that takes time.

Most of you are unwilling to do the hard thing and trade some of our better guys while they are at optimum trade value for multiple assets which have potential to provide greater total talent. That is the ONLY way to accelerate what you earn with smart drafting. Case in point. Girardi. To lesser extent Staal. I suggested trading for top dollar when their value was highest.

Did you listen?
No, you crucified me with we are in win now mode and a lot of nonsense like that.

ONE LAST TIME:
speed Kills. AV system based on speed.

certain Keep: McDonagh, Kreider, Lundqvist, Nash
almost certain keep: Miller, Fast, Lindberg, Skjei,
keep unless I am REALLY, REALLY overwhelmed: Stepan, Talbot, D. Moore
Make me a good offer, or I take my chances: Hagelin, Staal, Stralman, J. Moore, Del Zotto
Callahan, Boyle, Brassard, Zucarello are in the middle of these 2; Cally likely to bring enough to be worth dealing.
Actively take offers: Girardi, Falk, Dorsett (expect 3rd round value), Pouilott (cheaper, ok, I don't care), everybody else not named
Dump: Powe, Pyatt
none of the above applies, buy out required: Richards

The trouble is we need to bundle a guy like Stepan, with a guy like Staal, and something extra, for a guy like Seth Jones. You guys either don't want to go that big, or won't pay the price, or will move the wrong asset instead (Miller), and being a less valuable piece, would have to move multiples of Miller/equivalent instead of Staal.

I like Staal. But if the martians kidnapped him, Brassard has demonstrated that, with regular work and better linemates, while a downgrade, he is a down grade I can live with IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF a mega asset is returned.

If you TRULY want our team to improve, whether it is Stepan, Kreider, etc,, stop fighting me tooth and nail. Yield to the logic of the situation. Give up the instant gratification pipe dream, look to BUILD quickly. Then we can give the elite like the Hawks a run for their money.

prefer to look forward to:
Kreider - Miller - correct RW, probably Kristo
Miller is the only real speed C we have, and is LETHAL w/CK
Hags - Lindberg - Fast
However, I would consider moving Hagelin if it got some other deal over the top.

Stop asking the universe for other than our untouchables.
Top dollar for Stepan? Certainly.
But most others only command so much.

See if, having moved out enough vets, we can use taking on Tyler Myers at full half salary the entire length of balance of his deal as part of basis to get Ristolainen and high pick from Buffalo. (eg, 1st + for Staal, 1st for Girardi; add Ranger 1st; swap 3 firsts + for Risto + Buf 1st 2015 [so they can live with it, but it should still be a good pick, even still if it is next year] + Myers, who we can take a chance on as project at half price.

Jones is righty McD w/lesser def skills and better off skills currently. Get him for Stepan + while you still can, as long as the overpay is reasonable (Hagelin +, for example).

 

[GraveyTrain9]

simply put, we had three #1 caliber dmen last year. Now McDonagh is the only one playing like a true #1 while Girardi and Staal have not.

 

[haveandare]

Good post. You presented a fair, honest assessment of both Torts and AV, and of the roster. I agree with you, as I think most informed posters would, that both coaches do have their strengths and weaknesses.

I am not sure why a few posters are chiming in that fans here thought AV would solve the team's scoring issues when anyone who watched him in Vancouver knew he was more of a defensive tilted coach. That is likewise the impression I got when I lived near Van and from my many friends out there. I also don't understand why these same posters don't seem to realize that 99 percent of the posters here do realize the problems are up top with Sather. But since we recognize we are stuck with Slats you try to make the best you can with what's below him, and Tortorella was no longer that guy. The team plateaued with Torts and was trending the other way. A change was needed.

Both Renney and Torts were imperfect, as most coaches are. But both guys also did their share of valuable things for the organization, and they were given ample time to do so. I thought it was clear as day that Torts' time had reached its end and the players were no longer responding to him. I did not think AV was the right replacement choice personally, but hopefully I am wrong. At the moment, however, AV will still need some level of legit time before any of us can fully grade his tenure here.

Whether AV is that change is impossible to say this early in. Based on what I saw of him in Vancouver, I personally think he was hired way too hastily. But 30 games is still way too soon to judge a guy. At the 30 game marker in his first full season, Torts was 14-14-2, and the team was in the middle of losing 13 of 18 games en route to missing the playoffs. The team turned out decent enough the few following seasons. Any new coach needs that same traction to get a real estimate of their worth, as good, bad or mediocre starts over short spans can be very inaccurate reflections of how the team will play over the long haul. GMs also need time to effectively adjust personnel to suit a particular coach's strengths and weaknesses.

The one thing people cannot do is operate in some fantasy vacuum and think building a championship caliber team is easy when there are 29 other GMs, coaching staffs, and teams vying for the exact same goal. It is not easy at all. Especially when we have been burdened with a Pejorative Slured GM who has a free pass and no apparent accountability.

Thanks. I really agree with your last paragraph. People act as if the answers to all problems are so obvious, as if this team is the only team trying to win.

That's a good post overall. I don't want to belittle Tortorella's effect on that part of the game, but would also like to point out that Chris Drury's injury in 10-11 opened up a leadership vacuum that some young and homegrown players (Cally, Staal, Dubinsky) stepped right in to fill. Until that point, the team was still too even keeled, to the point of missing the playoffs the year before, despite a desperate drive at the end. Yes, the 10-11 team was better than the 09-10 team simply from natural player growth... but the players bear an enormous amount of the responsibility for a lot of what Torts gets credit for (same with every coach, really)

True. I can't really disagree with that, but I do think Torts played a role, and I do think that establishing a certain type of combative mentality is part of his strength as a coach.

 

[haveandare]

Reason to thread title ? is we don't have enough horses, and we are mostly unwilling to do what it takes to change that!

We have made great strides with last group of players and expect great things from draftees. But that takes time.

Most of you are unwilling to do the hard thing and trade some of our better guys while they are at optimum trade value for multiple assets which have potential to provide greater total talent. That is the ONLY way to accelerate what you earn with smart drafting. Case in point. Girardi. To lesser extent Staal. I suggested trading for top dollar when their value was highest.

Did you listen?
No, you crucified me with we are in win now mode and a lot of nonsense like that.

ONE LAST TIME:
speed Kills. AV system based on speed.

certain Keep: McDonagh, Kreider, Lundqvist, Nash
almost certain keep: Miller, Fast, Lindberg, Skjei,
keep unless I am REALLY, REALLY overwhelmed: Stepan, Talbot, D. Moore
Make me a good offer, or I take my chances: Hagelin, Staal, Stralman, J. Moore, Del Zotto
Callahan, Boyle, Brassard, Zucarello are in the middle of these 2; Cally likely to bring enough to be worth dealing.
Actively take offers: Girardi, Falk, Dorsett (expect 3rd round value), Pouilott (cheaper, ok, I don't care), everybody else not named
Dump: Powe, Pyatt
none of the above applies, buy out required: Richards

The trouble is we need to bundle a guy like Stepan, with a guy like Staal, and something extra, for a guy like Seth Jones. You guys either don't want to go that big, or won't pay the price, or will move the wrong asset instead (Miller), and being a less valuable piece, would have to move multiples of Miller/equivalent instead of Staal.

I like Staal. But if the martians kidnapped him, Brassard has demonstrated that, with regular work and better linemates, while a downgrade, he is a down grade I can live with IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF a mega asset is returned.

If you TRULY want our team to improve, whether it is Stepan, Kreider, etc,, stop fighting me tooth and nail. Yield to the logic of the situation. Give up the instant gratification pipe dream, look to BUILD quickly. Then we can give the elite like the Hawks a run for their money.

prefer to look forward to:
Kreider - Miller - correct RW, probably Kristo
Miller is the only real speed C we have, and is LETHAL w/CK
Hags - Lindberg - Fast
However, I would consider moving Hagelin if it got some other deal over the top.

Stop asking the universe for other than our untouchables.
Top dollar for Stepan? Certainly.
But most others only command so much.

See if, having moved out enough vets, we can use taking on Tyler Myers at full half salary the entire length of balance of his deal as part of basis to get Ristolainen and high pick from Buffalo. (eg, 1st + for Staal, 1st for Girardi; add Ranger 1st; swap 3 firsts + for Risto + Buf 1st 2015 [so they can live with it, but it should still be a good pick, even still if it is next year] + Myers, who we can take a chance on as project at half price.

Jones is righty McD w/lesser def skills and better off skills currently. Get him for Stepan + while you still can, as long as the overpay is reasonable (Hagelin +, for example).

This whole bitter genius attitude is extremely off-putting. Some people just disagree with your evaluations of players or the wisdom or reality of your proposed trades. It's not that they "don't get it" or "aren't willing" to do something that literally not one of us have the power to do, they just disagree with you.

 

[bernmeister]

This whole bitter genius attitude is extremely off-putting. Some people just disagree with your evaluations of players or the wisdom or reality of your proposed trades. It's not that they "don't get it" or "aren't willing" to do something that literally not one of us have the power to do, they just disagree with you.

I want to say 'fair enough', but the fact is, I am the one who is usually vilified for going my own eclectic way against the conventional wisdom grain.

Most posters are polite.
Several have verbally crucified me , and I am justified to give them a comeuppance .

That said, I too, am more comfortable with discussing the team, and not me.



What did you think of my suggestion?

 

[haveandare]

I want to say 'fair enough', but the fact is, I am the one who is usually vilified for going my own eclectic way against the conventional wisdom grain.

Most posters are polite.
Several have verbally crucified me , and I am justified to give them a comeuppance .

That said, I too, am more comfortable with discussing the team, and not me.



What did you think of my suggestion?

Good point. People do tend to overreact to simple trade proposals. For the record, I don't mind the proposals, I just think the heavy-handed righteousness can be a bit much sometimes.

I think the D that would come out of your suggestion could be very good. McD, Jones and Myers together would obviously be a strong combination going forward. However, I'm not sure the forward corps would be able to get much of anything done, assuming that I'm understanding the proposals correctly. Way too much rides on whether some real question marks can reach their ceilings. I'd love nothing more than to have all those guys be serviceable NHLers in the future, I'm just not at all convinced that they will be at this point. Also, I'm not at all convinced that teams would go for such bizarre trades with multiple key pieces and multiple firsts trading hands. As something to think about, I think it's interesting, but I'm not sure how practical it is.