WC: Team Slovakia

[Namejs]

LOL at your use of NHLe.

Slovakia has two proven NHL forwards in their prime, to Latvia’s zero. I comfortably take Slovakia’s top 6 over Latvia’s, and I think most neutral fans would as well. If these teams somehow meet, Slovakia will be a clear favourite on paper.

None of your statements are true.

The Slovakian forwards are not in their prime. Forwards peak at 21-25 yo.

You wanted to say they have established themselves. They're in their prime commercially. Biomechanically it's Balcers and Blueger who are at the best years of their career.

It doesn't matter whatsoever what you or anyone else would take.

Slovakia would not in any way be clear favorites in a match up against Latvia.

 

[Elvs]

You're talking like a 70 year old coach in a weird suit. "Proving" anything within an organization is a question of hierarchy, about gaining trust of the leader, which is a very tribal thing for the most part. Someone has to be benched for a new guy to earn a permanent spot. And that guy being benched has spent years within the organization, he has actual, primate ties to other players or maybe even the management.

"Proving" things has got nothing to do with the skill level and the biomechanics of the new player coming in. It's about convincing people. His traits and his skills don't exactly change much over those months of breaking in. You do work up some chemistry with your teammates, but that also has nothing to do with skill.

So, no, Panik is in no way a 'higher caliber' player. He has a better brand name, sure. You have heard of him. It doesn't make him better. They're all in the same tier. We have data. It's 0.39 vs. 0.36 and 0.39 vs. 0.39 PPG in NHL and Blueger was more productive in the AHL this season than Panik ever was. They are all bottom 6 NHL guys.

There's more to hockey than "skill", and points for that matter. Not every 30-35 point player is as good as the next. Plenty of AHL'ers and European League players have skill, but can't hack it in the best league in the world. So yes, proving yourself against top competition is a real thing.

You can't deem someone in the AHL better than a guy that is scoring at nearly 0.5 PPG over the past 3 seasons in the NHL. Because AHL skill or AHL point production doesn't always transalte to the NHL. More often than not it doesn't. How many times have we seen players come into the NHL, score 10 points in 30 games, never to establish themselves at the highest level? TONS.

By your logic, is Tomas Jurco also a better player than Panik? This season Jurco has 33 points in 40 AHL games (playoffs included). Last year he had 10 points in 29 games in the NHL. Similar numbers to Balcers and Blueger.

 

[Namejs]

Darzins never made it to NHL. Panik has already more than four hundred games there. I really need to say more?...

Darzins was a late bloomer and had his break out season being 24 years old. At the time KHL became a thing and he's earning a lot more there than he would being an AHL/NHL guy. He never really tried making the NHL despite several offers, since he wasn't good enough to land a one-way contract immediately.

Grinding through the AHL with a family and kids whilst you have a guaranteed lucrative contract at your home country is not very rational. Several Swiss players and others have gone the same route. It doesn't mean they're not highly skilled guys.

 

[Elvs]

Darzins was a late bloomer and had his break out season being 24 years old. At the time KHL became a thing and he's earning a lot more there than he would being an AHL/NHL guy. He never really tried making the NHL despite several offers, since he wasn't good enough to land a one-way contract immediately.

Grinding through the AHL with a family and kids whilst you have a guaranteed lucrative contract at your home country is not very rational. Several Swiss players and others have gone the same route. It doesn't mean they're not highly skilled guys.

No one is saying that Darzins doesn't have skill. But since you are the one adjusting points between leagues... If Darzins is better than Panik, solely based on KHL point production, then so are Nigel Dawes, Matt Ellison, Dennis Rasmussen and Teemu Hartikainen. they finished higher than Darzins in KHL scoring. But we have seen those guys at the NHL level, so we know it's not true. And no, I'm not saying those guys are better than Darzins, but you're the one who seem to incist that points are everything, even playing in an inferior league.

 

[Namejs]

There's more to hockey than "skill", and points for that matter. Not every 30-35 point player is as good as the next. Plenty of AHL'ers and European League players have skill, but can't hack it in the best league in the world. So yes, proving yourself against top competition is a real thing.

You can't deem someone in the AHL better than a guy that is scoring at nearly 0.5 PPG over the past 3 seasons in the NHL. Because AHL skill or AHL point production doesn't always transalte to the NHL. More often than not it doesn't. How many times have we seen players come into the NHL, score 10 points in 30 games, never to establish themselves at the highest level? TONS.

By your logic, is Tomas Jurco also a better player than Panik? This season Jurco has 33 points in 40 AHL games (playoffs included). Last year he had 10 points in 29 games in the NHL. Similar numbers to Balcers and Blueger.

You do realize we're comparing NHL players to NHL players right now? 'Can't hack it in the NHL' is a side argument and I'm not really interested in that. We're not discussing the chances of Euro players making it in the NHL.

The NHLe rates were used mostly to compare Euro guys to Euro guys. 20 out of those 24 forwards are not NHL guys. It accounts for the quality of the best Euro leagues and the KHL and has little to do with NHL in this context.

It's merely the best possible tool in comparing a bunch of forwards scattered throughout a bunch of leagues to a bunch of other forwards scattered throughout a bunch of other leagues.

And it clearly shows that the Latvian offense is slightly better overall.

 

[Namejs]

No one is saying that Darzins doesn't have skill. But since you are the one adjusting points between leagues... If Darzins is better than Panik, solely based on KHL point production, then so are Nigel Dawes, Matt Ellison, Dennis Rasmussen and Teemu Hartikainen. they finished higher than Darzins in KHL scoring. But we have seen those guys at the NHL level, so we know it's not true.

Who said Darzins was better than Panik? Don't make strawmans, dude. Darzins is a player of roughly the same caliber.

The only higher caliber player here is Tatar. That's all.

 

[Elvs]

You do realize we're comparing NHL players to NHL players right now? 'Can't hack it in the NHL' is a side argument and I'm not really interested in that. We're not discussing the chances of Euro players making it in the NHL.

The NHLe rates were used mostly to compare Euro guys to Euro guys. 20 out of those 24 forwards are not NHL guys. It accounts for the quality of the best Euro leagues and the KHL and has little to do with NHL in this context.

It's merely the best possible tool in comparing a bunch of forwards scattered throughout a bunch of leagues to a bunch of other forwards scattered throughout a bunch of other leagues.

And it clearly shows that the Latvian offense is slightly better overall.

We have different views on what sample size it takes to be an 'NHL player'. Blueger has played 28 games, Balcers 36. I've been around long enough to see hundreds of players play 30 games in the NHL, score 10 points, but not being able to stick around. I'm not saying that Blueger and Balcers won't, I'm fairly confident both will, especially Blueger who has the defensive makeup needed to fill out a bottom six role. But if we're ranking these forwards right now, the future is uncertain and merits matter, making Panik the 2nd best forward behind Tatar on these two national teams. If sample size didnt't matter, you could have been here claiming that Balcers/Blueger/Darzins were "in the same calibre" as Tatar a year ago, since Tatar had an awful season.

 

[Namejs]

We have different views on what sample size it takes to be an 'NHL player'. Blueger has played 28 games, Balcers 36. I've been around long enough to see hundreds of players play 30 games in the NHL, score 10 points, but not being able to stick around. I'm not saying that Blueger and Balcers won't, I'm fairly confident both will, especially Blueger who has the defensive makeup needed to fill out a bottom six role. But if we're ranking these forwards right now, the future is uncertain and merits matter, making Panik the 2nd best forward behind Tatar on these two national teams. If sample size didnt't matter, you could have been here claiming that Balcers/Blueger/Darzins were "in the same calibre" as Tatar a year ago, since Tatar had an awful season.

Since I've seen Balcers and Blueger play for years since they were junior players and since I do know a thing or two about the dynamics within Sens and Pens, it's not really a question whether they'll stick around in NHL next season.

Sens are rebuilding and Balcers is going to get a lot more playing time come next season.

Blueger is a universal guy and he makes everyone around him better. He could easily play on Crosby's wing or center the 3rd or 4th line. He's a good playmaker with real soft hands and a high IQ. And yet he can also be a grinder type.

Both of them gained NHL time during the second half of the season and both remained there.

I get your point about sample size, but it's pretty clear they will be playing in the NHL next season.

 

[Elvs]

Since I've seen Balcers and Blueger play for years since they were junior players and since I do know a thing or two about the dynamics within Sens and Pens, it's not really a question whether they'll stick around in NHL next season.

Sens are rebuilding and Balcers is going to get a lot more playing time come next season.

Blueger is a universal guy and he makes everyone around him better. He could easily play on Crosby's wing or center the 3rd or 4th line. He's a good playmaker with real soft hands and a high IQ. And yet he can also be a grinder type.

Both of them gained NHL time during the second half of the season and both remained there.

I get your point about sample size, but it's pretty clear they will be playing in the NHL next season.

I too think they will play in the NHL next season. Point is development isn't linear. Balcers and Blueger are young and promising, and on good track to establish themselves. But most players in the NHL were hyped to some level at some point. Many promising players, even those who does stick in the NHL, become bottom six players and third pairing defensemen. Do I see a possible scenario where I could be ranking Balcers and Blueger higher than Panik a year from now? Of course. But right now, 30 or so games in the NHL isn't enough, and the AHL is so inferior to the NHL.

Either way, the WC is a short tournament. It's very much possible that Balcers and Blueger will outperform Panik, or even Tatar for that matter. But if we're ranking the forwards on paper, Tatar is first and Panik is second. That is my opinion and if you're of another we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Namejs]

I too think they will play in the NHL next season. Point is development isn't linear. Balcers and Blueger are young and promising, and on good track to establish themselves. But most players in the NHL were hyped to some level at some point. Many promising players, even those who does stick in the NHL, become bottom six players and third pairing defensemen. Do I see a possible scenario where I could be ranking Balcers and Blueger higher than Panik a year from now? Of course. But right now, 30 or so games in the NHL isn't enough, and the AHL is so inferior to the NHL.

Either way, the WC is a short tournament. It's very much possible that Balcers and Blueger will outperform Panik, or even Tatar for that matter. But if we're ranking the forwards on paper, Tatar is first and Panik is second. That is my opinion and if you're of another we'll have to agree to disagree.

I'm not projecting their growth here. I'm saying their showing this season is not a statistical anomaly and there's no reason for their production to decrease in the NHL over the next years.

If you agree, their production should be the same as Panik's if they remain at their current level their entire career. No one is claiming they're *better*. The Latvian offense in general is better despite Tatar and Panik.

The Slovakian PP1 unit is probably better, but at ES we should be able to score with 3 lines easily. Slovaks only have 2 decent lines.

 

[slovakiasnextone]

I can't shake a 2015 IHWC kind of feeling about this team. I don't think it has the kind of offensive leader to take them that one extra step. I sincerely hope they surprise me.

 

[stastny12]

Bucek, Marcinko and Grman did not make a team.

 

[penepi]

I'm not projecting their growth here. I'm saying their showing this season is not a statistical anomaly and there's no reason for their production to decrease in the NHL over the next years.

If you agree, their production should be the same as Panik's if they remain at their current level their entire career. No one is claiming they're *better*. The Latvian offense in general is better despite Tatar and Panik.

The Slovakian PP1 unit is probably better, but at ES we should be able to score with 3 lines easily. Slovaks only have 2 decent lines.

To put it bluntly, it is a bit funny, but also pathetic, to watch how one solid tournament makes you self-confident and think you are on par, or perhaps even better, than the Slovakian roster. Sorry, but definitely not this year.

 

[Retroglyphs]

Bucek, Marcinko and Grman did not make a team.

woah, bucek and marcinko?!

 

[SoundAndFury]

I'm not too shocked really.. Marcinko didn't have a very good season, he was basically relegated to the 3rd line (albeit on a really good team) and Bucek is 20 and plays in Extraliga.. They probably wanted someone more capable of playing PK and such.

 

[tobu]

I am ok with the final roster, albeit only surprise for me is Luntner over Buček.

 

[kudla]

This team could have had Cehlarik, Jurco, Halak, Chara or Bakos (??) on the team. Now the offense looks too unexperienced. Quarterfinals would be a very pleasant surprise. We have to lower our expectations and hope that the team will play good hockey. First they need to get some chemistry going because it's a new and young team

 

[Jakk123]

Why did they cut Marcinko? Doesn't make any sense. As for Bucek, he didn't show much, but what exactly did Lunter and Bondra do to earn their spots?

 

[stastny12]

Why did they cut Marcinko? Doesn't make any sense. As for Bucek, he didn't show much, but what exactly did Lunter and Bondra do to earn their spots?

It was a choice between him and Buc for 4C position. They preferred Buc probably because he is great penalty killer, and reliable, basically zero mistakes by him in all pre-games. Also one of our best players in last WC so far.

 

[stastny12]

Lines in today's practice:

Tatar - Krištof - Pánik
Studenič - Sukeľ - Nagy
Lantoši - Zigo - Daňo
Liška - Buc - Bondra

Lunter and Hudáček still haven't been practicing. Maybe tomorrow. I suppose Hudáček would replace Sukeľ and than Sukeľ gets a spot like a third center.

 

[Faterson]

Offensively your lineup is on par with the Latvian one.

You may be too generous in your praise. Our offensive pruduction is that of a football (soccer) team, not hockey.

 

[Faterson]

Ofcourse bronze medal is a scifi scenario. Our medal would be reaching the QFs. We have a new young team forming and it needs time.

Like 10 to 20 years. (I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just realistic.)

 

[KendoYanar]

Do you guys think Rybar will be be the clear no 1 goalie or does Ciliak or Godla get some gametime too? Of course there are a few back to back games so they might give Rybar some rest. But for example Slovaks face too tough opponents on the first two days of the tournament. Is there a possibility Rybar plays both games against USA and Finland?

 

[SoundAndFury]

Do you guys think Rybar will be be the clear no 1 goalie or does Ciliak or Godla get some gametime too? Of course there are a few back to back games so they might give Rybar some rest. But for example Slovaks face too tough opponents on the first two days of the tournament. Is there a possibility Rybar plays both games against USA and Finland?

Knowing Slovakian hockey's love affair with Ciliak he is going to start at least 3 games for sure. And to be honest, this time I can't even really blame them, Rybar hasn't been impressive.

 

[Retroglyphs]

Knowing Slovakian hockey's love affair with Ciliak he is going to start at least 3 games for sure. And to be honest, this time I can't even really blame them, Rybar hasn't been impressive.

Well, is he (Ciliak) really so bad? Thought he had some good moments last year.