Olympics: Team Russia 2022

[Dirty Dan]

Due to recent outbreaks, it's being discussed, but players want to go.

Outbreaks of what? They are all vaccinated, I don't think they will just bow down this time

 

[Atas2000]

Outbreaks of what? They are all vaccinated, I don't think they will just bow down this time

Games are being postponed. That's a factor no matter how you turn it(yes, because the NHL all the time whines about the schedule and the break when bargaining about Olympics).

 

[RED ARMY EAST]

Ok, by your definition Russia/Soviet Union has never won a best on best tournament, his point being they are due to win one soon

Yes, they one the 81 Canada cup.
Since then, some World championships and a couple of Olympic tiles. 1988 Calgary Olympics and Albertville games, Russian pros vs amateur competition, correct?

 

[RED ARMY EAST]

Yes, they one the 81 Canada cup.
Since then, some World championships and a couple of Olympic tiles. 1988 Calgary Olympics and Albertville games, Russian pros vs amateur competition, correct?

Sorry, forgot the Korean games.

 

[HockeyWooot]

Ovechkin Kuznetsov Kucherov
Kaprizov Malkin Svechnikov
Panarin Shipaychov Gurianov
Buchnevich Barbashev Tarasenko
Radulov

Provorov Zub
Orlov Gavrikov
Sergachev Zaitsev
Kulikov

Vasilevsky
Bobrovsky
Shesterkin

 

[MaxV]

It is possible that this is some sort of alternate universe, but Zadorov has only 8 penalty minutes so far this season.

As I've mentioned previously, that PMs have been a huge knock on him and primary reason why I am against adding him to the roster. If he did, in fact, fix that issue then his candidancy is stronger.

 

[Yakushev72]

Ok, by your definition Russia/Soviet Union has never won a best on best tournament, his point being they are due to win one soon

You have to separate the two entities the "Soviet Union" and "Russia," because in hockey terms, they are not comparable. The Soviet Union was arguably the equal of any other contender in the world, but Russia has never been a contender for the title of "best in the world." The closest that the two best nations of the 1960's, '70's and -80's came to having a "best on best" tournament was the 1972, eight-game, home-and-home series. There has been nothing like it before or since. Those eight (8) games consisted of 480 minutes, or 28,800 seconds of game action, and the winner was not identified until 28,766 seconds had expired. That is how close it was until the best of Canada, the proclaimed superior hockey nation, finally claimed a 4-3-1 series victory. All subsequent series between Canada's best and the best of the Soviets had equally razor-close outcomes.

 

[MaxV]

You have to separate the two entities the "Soviet Union" and "Russia," because in hockey terms, they are not comparable. The Soviet Union was arguably the equal of any other contender in the world, but Russia has never been a contender for the title of "best in the world." The closest that the two best nations of the 1960's, '70's and -80's came to having a "best on best" tournament was the 1972, eight-game, home-and-home series. There has been nothing like it before or since. Those eight (8) games consisted of 480 minutes, or 28,800 seconds of game action, and the winner was not identified until 28,766 seconds had expired. That is how close it was until the best of Canada, the proclaimed superior hockey nation, finally claimed a 4-3-1 series victory. All subsequent series between Canada's best and the best of the Soviets had equally razor-close outcomes.

Russia beat Canada in 2006 OG.

Russia also came pretty close to Gold in 1998, playing great throughout the tournament. It took an unhuman performance by Hasek in the final to stop them.

I disagree that Russia was never a contender.

Russia's talent production was great until about early-to-mid-2000s.

If we were projecting a best possible Team Russia in 2008, it would be a LOADED team with really no weakness.

 

[Yakushev72]

Russia beat Canada in 2006 OG.

Russia also came pretty close to Gold in 1998, playing great throughout the tournament. It took an unhuman performance by Hasek in the final to stop them.

I disagree that Russia was never a contender.

Russia's talent production was great until about early-to-mid-2000s.

If we were projecting a best possible Team Russia in 2008, it would be a LOADED team with really no weakness.

Although they were all NHL players at that time, the 1998 and 2002 Olympics represented the final stage of Soviet-developed talent representing Russia in international competition. That generation of Fedorov, Mogilny, Bure, Gonchar, Kasparaitis and so on were the last of those whose youth training was under the Soviet system. In general, exceptional talents like Mogilny and Fedorov were recruited by a few Moscow-based teams from far-flung Regions like Khabarovsk and Murmansk, respectively, to receive countless hours of intensive and, by comparison, fairly scientific training aimed at leading the USSR to international championships.

Russia never invested similar efforts to develop talent. There are a few places like Chelyabinsk, Penza, Yaroslavl and a few others that offer opportunities to play hockey, but not nearly the investment of time, money and coaching expertise to turn talented kids into productive stars! So, in a country as big as Russia, there are still a few individuals like Ovechkin and Malkin that rise to the top, but overall, Russia has fallen short of producing the depth of talent that much smaller countries like Finland have achieved. There are some talented junior kids like Michkov and Miroshnichenko on the horizon, but only time will tell whether that represents a system-wide trend or just a few anecdotal cases of isolated talent.

 

[Brucelenok]

Ovechkin Kuznetsov Kucherov
Kaprizov Malkin Svechnikov
Panarin Shipaychov Gurianov
Buchnevich Barbashev Tarasenko
Radulov

Provorov Zub
Orlov Gavrikov
Sergachev Zaitsev
Kulikov

Vasilevsky
Bobrovsky
Shesterkin

Great line-up. The only two changes I'll do, is Namestnikov instead of Gurianov (Guarianov is 13th forward instead of Radulov) since Vlad is a better all around player and can play PK and center. And Kulikov instead of Zaitsev. Kulikov plays well this season.

 

[RED ARMY EAST]

You have to separate the two entities the "Soviet Union" and "Russia," because in hockey terms, they are not comparable. The Soviet Union was arguably the equal of any other contender in the world, but Russia has never been a contender for the title of "best in the world." The closest that the two best nations of the 1960's, '70's and -80's came to having a "best on best" tournament was the 1972, eight-game, home-and-home series. There has been nothing like it before or since. Those eight (8) games consisted of 480 minutes, or 28,800 seconds of game action, and the winner was not identified until 28,766 seconds had expired. That is how close it was until the best of Canada, the proclaimed superior hockey nation, finally claimed a 4-3-1 series victory. All subsequent series between Canada's best and the best of the Soviets had equally razor-close outcomes.

Don't forget, Canada didn't have the option of picking WHA players, that included Bobby Hull..

 

[RED ARMY EAST]

Don't forget, Canada didn't have the option of picking WHA players, that included Bobby Hull..

Bobby Orr was injured and look what he did in the 76 Canada Cup.
72 was missing Orr, Hull..

 

[Yakushev72]

Don't forget, Canada didn't have the option of picking WHA players, that included Bobby Hull..

Bobby Hull and Bobby Orr were missing from the 1972 Canadian team, but so was the best Soviet player, Anatoli Firsov, who was only 31 at the time, and their best defenseman, Vitali Davydov. The game of "what if?" can go on forever, but it is hard to know how much difference they would have made. You could make a good case that Bobby Orr, before he suffered a devastating blowout of his knee joint, was the best player in the history of the game. Unfortunately, it was noted when he resumed his NHL career during the 1972-73 season that his knee injuries had robbed him of a good part of his unique skating ability, and that he wasn't the same guy as he was in the late 1960's and early 1970's.

Bobby Hull played against the Soviets two years later when the Soviets and the WHA All-Stars played an 8-game, home and home series in 1974. Along with Gordie Howe (46 years old at the time), Frank Mahovlich, Paul Henderson, Pat Stapleton, J.C. Tremblay, Ralph Backstrom and a number of other big-name stars, Hull had his moments against the Soviets. In Game 4 in Vancouver, Hull scored a hat trick in the first period to give Canada a 5-2 lead. However, Hull and his counterparts settled for a 5-5 tie in the game, and only won one game in the entire 8-game series. If you look at the entire star-studded Canadian lineup, the most impressive player and leader of the team was Gordie Howe. Even at 46, he was a totally dominant player, with amazingly gifted hands and physical strength.

The reason the NHL was able to insist on excluding WHA players in 1972 was the belief that Hull was not needed to achieve a dominant, one-sided win over the Soviets. The prevailing viewpoint in North America is that the best of the NHL would have no trouble at all in trouncing the poor, hapless Soviets in all eight games. There were no dissenters among journalists at the time. That was what made the series so ineresting at the time - the first time the best of a North American major league had taken on a foreign contender. Instead of crushing the Soviets as expected, Canada was very fortunate indeed to achieve it's first series lead with 34 seconds left in the 24th full period!

 

[sdf]

(2) All games involving Canada were played in Canadian cities in front of Canadian fans (what if the Stanley Cup final was played in one city only?).

This is no matter

1) It was a privately owned tournament, as opposed to a regulated international tournament, exclusively owned by a Canadian citizen (Alan Eagleson, ex-convict) who personally controlled all decisions regarding referees, rules, and whatever else he chose to regulate.

In the final best of 3 series for the Gold Medal, the Soviets won the first game 6-5 in OT, Canada won the second game 3-2 in double OT, and Canada won Game 3, 6-5 on Lemieux's disputed last-minute goal, disputed because the video clearly showed that Slava Bykov was literally hooked to the ice as he was ready to check Lemieux. The referee in the final series was Canadian Don Kaharski, which marked the first time in the history of all world sports that a citizen of one of the competing countries was allowed to referee a championship game.

This is why grenada cup is a joke

After the Soviets beat Canada 6-3 in the round-robin of 1984, Eagleson fired Dag Olsson of Sweden, and declared that, in the future, only North Americans would be allowed to referee Medal Round games. That rule was adhered to through 1991 the last edition of the Canada Cup. Canada beat the Soviets 3-2 in the 12th minute of OT in 1984 Semi-Final round with an American, Mike Noeth, officiating the game.
(5). In the final round-robin game of 1987, with Noeth refereeing, Canada and the Soviets tied, 3-3. In the broadcast of the game, Canadian broadcaster Dan Kelly said of Noeth's refereeing, "I'm cheering for Canada, but this is ridiculous!"

Wasn't even know about that shit

 

[MaxV]

Great line-up. The only two changes I'll do, is Namestnikov instead of Gurianov (Guarianov is 13th forward instead of Radulov) since Vlad is a better all around player and can play PK and center. And Kulikov instead of Zaitsev. Kulikov plays well this season.

Kulikov is indeed playing very well this season. Small sample size so far, but he might be playing best hockey of his career.

Zaytsev has struggled so far this season. He does have one possible advantage, he is a RH shot. Of all the top D candidates for this team, only him, Zub and Voynov that are RH shots.

 

[Khomutov]

Although they were all NHL players at that time, the 1998 and 2002 Olympics represented the final stage of Soviet-developed talent representing Russia in international competition. That generation of Fedorov, Mogilny, Bure, Gonchar, Kasparaitis and so on were the last of those whose youth training was under the Soviet system. In general, exceptional talents like Mogilny and Fedorov were recruited by a few Moscow-based teams from far-flung Regions like Khabarovsk and Murmansk, respectively, to receive countless hours of intensive and, by comparison, fairly scientific training aimed at leading the USSR to international championships.

Russia never invested similar efforts to develop talent. There are a few places like Chelyabinsk, Penza, Yaroslavl and a few others that offer opportunities to play hockey, but not nearly the investment of time, money and coaching expertise to turn talented kids into productive stars! So, in a country as big as Russia, there are still a few individuals like Ovechkin and Malkin that rise to the top, but overall, Russia has fallen short of producing the depth of talent that much smaller countries like Finland have achieved. There are some talented junior kids like Michkov and Miroshnichenko on the horizon, but only time will tell whether that represents a system-wide trend or just a few anecdotal cases of isolated talent.

I think Russia has still great players even when the talent pool is smaller than 30 years ago. The biggest problem is the system, the lacking of good coaches and the still big nostalgia about the good old days in the USSR. No real plan for the future, no real willing to learn from other hockey countries. I personally think it would be a good idea for a foreign coach for the National Team.

 

[vorky]

I think Russia has still great players even when the talent pool is smaller than 30 years ago. The biggest problem is the system, the lacking of good coaches and the still big nostalgia about the good old days in the USSR. No real plan for the future, no real willing to learn from other hockey countries. I personally think it would be a good idea for a foreign coach for the National Team.

I see the real plan for the future. I see how they have been building the new hockey facilities around the country. As I know, FHR´s development programm was inspired by foreign countries, they copied many things from US, CAN, SWE, FIN.

I agree they need to teach the new coaches for youth. Guessing a foreign coach for NT is not a solution.

 

[Atas2000]

I think Russia has still great players even when the talent pool is smaller than 30 years ago. The biggest problem is the system, the lacking of good coaches and the still big nostalgia about the good old days in the USSR. No real plan for the future, no real willing to learn from other hockey countries. I personally think it would be a good idea for a foreign coach for the National Team.

A foreign coach is the worst imaginable idea.

Learning from other countries should not mean forgetting the own brand of hockey. It't not nostalgia. It's common sense.

The pool is narrowed by adopting an ineffective and now dying economic system. The soviet pool was by far bigger for the simple reason of accessibility of sports to everyone. Now only the well situated parents to put in diplomatic can afford dragging the kid through all stages of hockey development up to the point at which he would make his own money.

There is a plan for the future. It's not perfect. But who has a perfect one?

We would gain way more if remembered our own hockey knowledge. Again, common sense. It's like riding a bike. For that we need to establish coaches development as much as we do with players.

 

[Atas2000]

Kulikov is indeed playing very well this season. Small sample size so far, but he might be playing best hockey of his career.

Zaytsev has struggled so far this season. He does have one possible advantage, he is a RH shot. Of all the top D candidates for this team, only him, Zub and Voynov that are RH shots.

At this point Zaytsev should be on the 4th pairing if not the 9th guy. Don't know the reasons, but he is slumping big time. And obviously Kulikov is ahead of him with his play. I've watched a few Minnesota games. He is playing his best hockey so far and has changed my mind about him a lot as a NT candidate. Sure thing, he is no top4 guy, but he is as mentioned clearly ahead of Zaytsev now.

 

[cleveland408]

Although they were all NHL players at that time, the 1998 and 2002 Olympics represented the final stage of Soviet-developed talent representing Russia in international competition. That generation of Fedorov, Mogilny, Bure, Gonchar, Kasparaitis and so on were the last of those whose youth training was under the Soviet system. In general, exceptional talents like Mogilny and Fedorov were recruited by a few Moscow-based teams from far-flung Regions like Khabarovsk and Murmansk, respectively, to receive countless hours of intensive and, by comparison, fairly scientific training aimed at leading the USSR to international championships.

Russia never invested similar efforts to develop talent. There are a few places like Chelyabinsk, Penza, Yaroslavl and a few others that offer opportunities to play hockey, but not nearly the investment of time, money and coaching expertise to turn talented kids into productive stars! So, in a country as big as Russia, there are still a few individuals like Ovechkin and Malkin that rise to the top, but overall, Russia has fallen short of producing the depth of talent that much smaller countries like Finland have achieved. There are some talented junior kids like Michkov and Miroshnichenko on the horizon, but only time will tell whether that represents a system-wide trend or just a few anecdotal cases of isolated talent.

Russia should return to a national development model they used with great success. It worked for the Soviets and it works in America as the USNTDP.

 

[zbornaja36]

Please no Zaitsev, dont be crazy. Zadorov, Kulikov or some other name, maybe KHL defenceman.

 

[MaxV]

Zaytsev is a better player then what he is showing right now.

I don't know. I feel like NHL coaches kind of ruined his game. Perhaps Toronto wasn't the best place for him to start his NHL career, as they already had multiple offensive-minded defenders. They tried to make him into a shut-down, defensive D. That was never his strength. In KHL, he was developing into a good puck mover, he was never used in a shut-down role.

Look at his career advanced stats:
35.9% career offensive zone starts
64.1% career defensive zone starts

This season it's 29.4/70.6. Woof. Might as well just put him next to the goalie.

Nikita Zaitsev Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[Yakushev72]

I think Russia has still great players even when the talent pool is smaller than 30 years ago. The biggest problem is the system, the lacking of good coaches and the still big nostalgia about the good old days in the USSR. No real plan for the future, no real willing to learn from other hockey countries. I personally think it would be a good idea for a foreign coach for the National Team.

I strongly agree with most of what you said, although I don't see why it would necessarily be a good thing to hire a foreign coach (when people talk about "foreign coaches," they generally mean Canadian coaches). Most Canadians who qualify as top-flight coaches are already employed, and would have no interest in coaching the Russian national team. Also, most foreign coaches would be completely unable to fix problems involving the depth of the talent pool, motivation, organization and other issues that limit Russia's potential.

What was ludicrous about Larionov's announced intention to reinvent the good old days of the USSR before the 2021 WJC was the notion that you could just plug in an app to do it. According to most authoritative accounts, the top Soviet hockey players trained approximately 1,400 hours each year, exclusive of game action. As Tretiak said in the ESPN documentary "Of Miracles and Men," dry land training under Tarasov was so grueling that they "pissed blood!" According to his book "The Road To Olympus," Tarasov deliberately avoided foreign (particularly Canadian) influence to produce something that was uniquely Russian.

It would be very difficult to re-create the Soviet hockey system, for a number of reasons involving the place and time. Soviet players of the 1950's through the 1970's were very much byproducts of the "Great Patriotic War," or, if you prefer, World War II. When the German Army invaded the USSR in 1941, a war of epic scale never experienced before or after by the human race took place. Overall, approximately 30 million Soviet citizens were killed, with estimates of up to 4 million starving to death, the most painful way to die as the body slowly consumes itself. Unimaginable war crimes were routine daily occurrences. Reading accounts of the Battle of Stalingrad and the Siege of Leningrad can curdle your blood! The first generation of Soviet hockey players experienced aspects of the war firsthand, and the second generation (Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Petrov) the immediate aftermath. I think it is fair to say that it affected their patriotism, their will to survive, and their willingness to accept and embrace the grueling ordeal of being a Soviet hockey player in the early years. Today, a different approach with different incentives would have to be used to produce similar efforts.

 

[Yakushev72]

Russia should return to a national development model they used with great success. It worked for the Soviets and it works in America as the USNTDP.

I completely agree! There are probably a number of formats to successfully launch national teams at various age groups. One method might be to create national teams that, in addition to competing in international tournaments, compete in the KHL, VHL, and/or the MHL for entire seasons.

 

[ViD]

Based on recent performance, Buchnevich should be nearly a lock to make the team, he might be our best two way winger right now and will play on PK1.

Kulikov is making a strong case for himself to take that #6 spot.