WC: Team CZE - 2019

[Czechboy]

but if somebody is from NHL his status cannot buy him a place on team

I would say his 4 goals buys him that status.

If Kakko was Czech, they would've benched him. Kakko is also a few months away from being a full time NHLer. However, in your example you are benching an 18 year old for a NHL player... not nearly as upsetting as benching a 19 year old NHLer for a 30 something Zohorna.

 

[Czechboy]

Franky, I couldn't care less what people in North America think about our lineups.

You do see who wins the medals every year, right? It's all North American based. Winning Goalie is almost always an NHLer... scoring leaders are 90% NHLers... best D are almost always NHLers.

Trust me, if playing Extraliga guys and Euro goalies was working the last decade I'd shut up about it.

The only other country I can think of that does this is Russia and they keep losing best on best tournaments too.

 

[Nexon]

I would say his 4 goals buys him that status.

If Kakko was Czech, they would've benched him. Kakko is also a few months away from being a full time NHLer. However, in your example you are benching an 18 year old for a NHL player... not nearly as upsetting as benching a 19 year old NHLer for a 30 something Zohorna.

His 4 goals means nothing if he won’t be responsible enough to guard “his player” and we lose by that one goal for example, that’s enough on this level in knock-out tournament and Vrána sometimes seem like he doesnt care and may not prevent that.

But he fullfils all your conditions right now
For players who also bring nothing extra.

 

[Czechboy]

His 4 goals means nothing

He's also plus 5. How many 'missed guys' have their been? I'm not sure how '2nd leading goal scorer' isn't enough.

If you play guys that can score (vs pluggers) then it might never be a 1 goal game.

 

[Swipes]

I think Riha is sending a message that he needs to be better. There's nothing wrong with that.

Someone mentioned that they didn't like Vrana's response to the Marek Sykora criticism. I disagree. I think it was very professional. He simply said that he respects it and that's it. This is how I expect a professional to behave. Nothing to see here.

The Zohornas haven't been good. Vrana hasn't played that well either. But I think that Vrana can still give more if motivated correctly. If you want to send a message to him then bench him during the group stage, not for a QF game. The timing is just off.

The key point is also to send a message to the Zohornas as well. They need to be better too!

 

[Czechboy]

I haven't read the Sykora comment yet but, from above, it sounds like he says he hasn't established himself yet in NHL. He's won a Cup and was 3rd in goal for the Washington Capitals this season. He's about to sign a very nice contract.

 

[czechmate]

Vrána has been nothing special, let's face it. He doesn't offer much besides goal-scoring, and it's not like he's scored a lot. Marek Sýkora is spot on in his assessment. I don't think it's down to bad luck and lack of opportunity that 5 years after being drafted, he still hasn't been able to establish himself as a Top 6 forward in the NHL. A decent finishing ability and excellent skating but he's clearly limited as a player. The Zohornas, as frustrating as they are, at least offer more consistent effort and physicality, important traits at the bottom 6.

On the other hand, I'd still prefer to see him on the PP rather than someone like Gulaš.



Franky, I couldn't care less what people in North America think about our lineups. They usually know total jack about players based in Europe and think that anyone in the NHL or even AHL is automatically better and a better fit than anyone from Europe.

That is so true. The most bizarre thing (aside from player knowledge) however is the pronunciation of the non-American players' names.

Example: Swiss NHL-player "Mirco Müller" (somehow pronounced: Myrrco Mjuhlrr)

 

[Rillijuti]

bartosak in goal?

 

[kudymen]

What does "does not offer much besides scoring" even mean? He is a forward and goals scored help winning, how about we keep that element in the damn lineup?

The coaches are trying to fix something that is not broken (and replacing it with a Zohorna)

 

[Jablkon]

I haven't read the Sykora comment yet but, from above, it sounds like he says he hasn't established himself yet in NHL. He's won a Cup and was 3rd in goal for the Washington Capitals this season. He's about to sign a very nice contract.

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No, he actually said exact opposite about Vrana’s position in NHL. I dont really mind discussions or sharing opinions or whatever. All I am quite surprised is what kind of aura some of you guys are creating around some czech NHLers. Its sometimes on the edge of fakenews. For example I havent really noticed that pens fans here somehow adoring Dominik Simon, in fact I saw bit of dissatisfaction. I am not saying that Sykora or Riha must be necessary correct or other approach is not possible but reading here fake accusation of Riha promoting Rousek to draft or even these constructs of how can he dare to bench Chytil while Chytil could be obviously benched in NY....Riha was not my favourite coach but I have to admit that apart of Bartosak position I dont see any questionable moves from his side. He is even moving with players in NA way not really relying upon some artificial power that wake them up to brutal czech combination hockey and special chemistry (maybe except Gulas - Kovar combo).

To your question about Jaskin ice time. Jaskin brings lot of physicality because obviously his game bit of struggles.

Ok, Riha sent home Tomasek and Hanzl so right now we can only question whether Chytil would be better than Zohorna in 4th or if Gulas should be there....

And lets be honest. Vrana, Jaskin, Palat, Simon werent visible in NHL playoffs and to some extent you can see reasons why. Chytil was like - 20 or smth like this during the season? I like them all, especially Palat and his attitude to rebuilt his game, he is a beast, but we are not speaking about guys who had exactly great seasons. Vrana, imo, lives in the shadow of Ovechkin and Kuzy in WSH, and he looks comfortable in this position, he also looks comfortable in NT.But I can understand that such a attitude could drive somebody completely crazy. Like how many mistakes Vrana made against russians?

 

[BigBadBoar]

No, he actually said exact opposite about Vrana’s position in NHL. I dont really mind discussions or sharing opinions or whatever. All I am quite surprised is what kind of aura some of you guys are creating around some czech NHLers. Its sometimes on the edge of fakenews. For example I havent really noticed that pens fans here somehow adoring Dominik Simon, in fact I saw bit of dissatisfaction. I am not saying that Sykora or Riha must be necessary correct or other approach is not possible but reading here fake accusation of Riha promoting Rousek to draft or even these constructs of how can he dare to bench Chytil while Chytil could be obviously benched in NY....Riha was not my favourite coach but I have to admit that apart of Bartosak position I dont see any questionable moves from his side. He is even moving with players in NA way not really relying upon some artificial power that wake them up to brutal czech combination hockey and special chemistry (maybe except Gulas - Kovar combo).

To your question about Jaskin ice time. Jaskin brings lot of physicality because obviously his game bit of struggles.

Ok, Riha sent home Tomasek and Hanzl so right now we can only question whether Chytil would be better than Zohorna in 4th or if Gulas should be there....

And lets be honest. Vrana, Jaskin, Palat, Simon werent visible in NHL playoffs and to some extent you can see reasons why. Chytil was like - 20 or smth like this during the season? I like them all, especially Palat and his attitude to rebuilt his game, he is a beast, but we are not speaking about guys who had exactly great seasons. Vrana, imo, lives in the shadow of Ovechkin and Kuzy in WSH, and he looks comfortable in this position, he also looks comfortable in NT.But I can understand that such a attitude could drive somebody completely crazy. Like how many mistakes Vrana made against russians?

Exactly. People should stop arguing this ferociously. Vrána had a great game against SWE, since then, his performance has got rather a declining trajectory. Maybe he will play tomorrow, maybe not, who knows. Personally I would give him some ice time tomorrow, but even if the coaches decide otherwise, I would not dare to say that they are idiots or whatever. Říha is a highly experienced veteran coach, Reichel is a former hockey star. Guys, those two men know a hundred times more about hockey than all of us here together. Plus they are there with the team in the locker room. I know that it's a part of being a hockey fan to argue against the coaches' decisions, but this is perhaps a little bit too much.

 

[Czechboy]

And lets be honest. Vrana, Jaskin, Palat, Simon werent visible in NHL playoffs and to some extent you can see reasons why. Chytil was like - 20 or smth like this during the season?

From my perspective. I"m not saying those guys are the best players in the world. No aura for me. I am saying they are absolutely better than the Zohorna brothers and Gulas. How do you think Zohornas and Gulas would've done in the NHL playoffs this season (or any season)?

Comparing stats from NHL vs Extraliga is not even close. For instance, Martin Erat's final season in NHL he got 32 points... that was 5 years ago. Last year he had 46 points in 49 games in Extraliga 4 years later. Do you think he improved with age or went to an easier league?

After round robin.. only 8 guys in the entire tournamet have more goals than Vrana. There were 16 teams and about 320 players and 8 scored more than him. Only one of those 8 is on our team. He's also one of our fastest skaters. We've replaced him with slower, older and less efffective scorers and that includes Jaskin.

 

[Czechboy]

Exactly. People should stop arguing this ferociously. Vrána had a great game against SWE, since then, his performance has got rather a declining trajectory. Maybe he will play tomorrow, maybe not, who knows. Personally I would give him some ice time tomorrow, but even if the coaches decide otherwise, I would not dare to say that they are idiots or whatever. Říha is a highly experienced veteran coach, Reichel is a former hockey star. Guys, those two men know a hundred times more about hockey than all of us here together. Plus they are there with the team in the locker room. I know that it's a part of being a hockey fan to argue against the coaches' decisions, but this is perhaps a little bit too much.

The thing is... we've been losing as a nation for well over a decade now. So 'trust the coaches' and they 'know what they are doing' might not be the answer? Maybe their should be more questions of our federation like why have we been losing forever in quarterfinals at this tourney? Or how about all the losing at U18 and U20s. I watch every tournament closely... very closely and it's always weird decisions.

Coincidentally, I can't think of one Czech coach who in consideration for an NHL job? Same with management? Former stars might not be the answer as coaches. I cant' say I enjoyed Varada at the U20's and he won coach of the year apparantly.

Also, how many coaches in the last 5 years? 4? 3? How many turned down this job before Riha got it? Something is wrong.

We also seem to do a lot of decisons on 'gut feelings' and the 'eye test'. Eg. Vrana's not skating hard but look at Zohorna skating hard and pushing a guy in the corner. He clearly cares more. That's a decision not based on reality as Vrana has more goals than Gulas, Zohorna and Zohorna combined. I imagine I could include their Euro Hockey Tour Stats and they still don't have 4 goals.

I can't stress enough that if playing inferior players was working, then I wouldn't question it and there'd be more scouts in the Extraliga bringing those guys over. If you think I'm wrong, then name all the non NHL goalies to win a medal of any colour in the last 5 years. That's 15 medals... Koskinen did it. Anyone else?

The 5 Pro Olympics (Nagano to Vancouver) saw 15 medals handed out as well... 1 non NHL goalie won a bronze (Finn goalie in 1998).

At some point, we need to realize that our Euro based players can't beat the North American based Euro's. Playing Extraliga goalies and players against NHLers is not a winning strategy. We just had a non North American Olympics where we sent our best Euro's against everyone... we finished 4th. No medal.

2 years ago we played Francouz over Mrazek in the quarter - didn't work
Last year we played Fracouz over Rittich - didn't work

We're consistently starting our Euro goalies over the NHL ones and it has proven a loss every time. This started around the time we benched Vokoun for Hniclicka. It continued in the bench Pavelec for Stepanek years.

We also have a big top 6 and bottom 6 mentality so if we have a 7th forward that can score, we don't seem to know what to do with him. This started around the time Hudler was a Top 10 scorer but got cut because we already had 2 guys like that. We have the guns to run a really good Top 9 which is what our opponents are doing.

You need NHL goalies and NHL players to beat NHL goalies and NHL players.

This is our best chance in almost a decade to move on and we're tinkering with lines and benching leading scorers the day before the quarters.

 

[Mirinho]

From my perspective. I"m not saying those guys are the best players in the world. No aura for me. I am saying they are absolutely better than the Zohorna brothers and Gulas. How do you think Zohornas and Gulas would've done in the NHL playoffs this season (or any season)?

Comparing stats from NHL vs Extraliga is not even close. For instance, Martin Erat's final season in NHL he got 32 points... that was 5 years ago. Last year he had 46 points in 49 games in Extraliga 4 years later. Do you think he improved with age or went to an easier league?

After round robin.. only 8 guys in the entire tournamet have more goals than Vrana. There were 16 teams and about 320 players and 8 scored more than him. Only one of those 8 is on our team. He's also one of our fastest skaters. We've replaced him with slower, older and less efffective scorers and that includes Jaskin.

So true, you have very good opinions czechboy. And that Erat example is absolutely perfect (comparimg Extraliga stats to NHL stats).

 

[Czechboy]

So true, you have very good hockey knowledge czechboy. And that Erat example is absolutely perfect (comparimg Extraliga stats to NHL stats).

Here's another one Mirinho!

In his final season:
GM Petr Nedved scored 7 points in 21 games for the Flyers
got sent to the AHL
then went to the Oilers where he got 5 points in 19 games for the Edmonton Oilers
That was the end of his NHL career... 12 points in 40 games and an AHL stint.

7 seasons later... he got 50 points in 49 games in the Extraliga. 7 years later!

I think he may have been the first of the 'we need an aging NHL vet from Extraliga' Czech strategy that also didn't yield many medals. Nedved was part of the bronze and was easily one of my favourite players growing up. The next guy we tried was Rucinksy. Didn't we also beg Straka every year? Martin Erat is another one. There is always a premium scoring spot available for an old guy from Extraliga. Riha asked Plekanec this year and he declined. He phoned Gulas after tournament already began to fix our powerplay. We're the only nation doing this. In this case, that premium spot has come at the expense of a young NHL player.

In many ways, Petr Nedved is the original Milan Gulas.

FTR - Huge Nedved fan.

Petr Nedved Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

 

[Mirinho]

Antos (czech tv hockey expert) has my respect. During break after 2nd period they were talking about Vrana on TV. And Antos said: ... "Vrana is natural scorer. He always played this role in every team. What is he doing every match? He is trying to score from every position. And he is doing that from child's age. He won't play other style. We can't have team full of same players. We need every type of player in the lineup. I won't bench him. But that's Riha's decision."

 

[Voodoozz]

Just to ease it up a little bit

 

[Nexon]

I was listening to ct hockey fokus podcast today and the statistics said there that statistically we are most likely to score goals, meaning we had most chances when those players were on ice: Vrana, Chytil, Jaskin.

Also Kovář had 60% on face-offs now.

 

[Mirinho]

Just to ease it up a little bit

Cool where that shot ended?

 

[Czechboy]

Antos (czech tv hockey expert) has my respect. During break after 2nd period they were talking about Vrana on TV. And Antos said: ... "Vrana is natural scorer. He always played this role in every team. What is he doing every match? He is trying to score from every position. And he is doing that from child's age. He won't play other style. We can't have team full of same players. We need every type of player in the lineup. I won't bench him. But that's Riha's decision."

4-2 currently for Russia/US
2-1 currently for Swiss/Canada

You desperately need goal scorers in Quarter final matchups. The best absolute strategy for us against Germany is to score early and then counter attack and force them to open up.

This all reminds me of TO fans complaining about Kessel and his consistent 40 goals seasons and saying he likes hot dogs and doesn't backcheck.. then they'd show a fourth line skating like hell on TSN and say Phil doesn't do that. That was true, but the 4th liner never scored a goal like Phil. There is a premium on goals scorers... 4th line plugs are easily found in every league!

 

[Czechboy]

Just to ease it up a little bit

Here is the one for D... maybe there is more to this 'shooting hard thing'... like elite players know where to place the puck while plugs just shoot it hard into a crest.

 

[Mirinho]

4-2 currently for Russia/US
2-1 currently for Swiss/Canada

You desperately need goal scorers in Quarter final matchups. The best absolute strategy for us against Germany is to score early and then counter attack and force them to open up.

This all reminds me of TO fans complaining about Kessel and his consistent 40 goals seasons and saying he likes hot dogs and doesn't backcheck.. then they'd show a fourth line skating like hell on TSN and say Phil doesn't do that. That was true, but the 4th liner never scored a goal like Phil. There is a premium on goals scorers... 4th line plugs are easily found in every league!

Yeah, that's true. And I hate opinions (of experts) like player XY should play because he is at least trying. If I'll be there I'll try too, but I miss all hockey skills.

Someone is hockey star who is scoring and is paid big money ...
And someone is hardworker who is at least trying (and is paid 10% star players money).
You need both types balanced in team. So we benched scorer. Clever move.

 

[Swipes]

Czechboy certainly has all the stats to back up his arguments!

Credit to him for being so passionate and determined to try and figure out the reasons for our lack of success

 

[Czechboy]

Yeah, that's true. And I hate opinions (of experts) like player XY should play because he is at least trying. If I'll be there I'll try too, but I miss all hockey skills.

Someone is hockey star who is scoring and is paid big money ...
And someone is hardworker who is at least trying (and is paid 10% star players money).
You need both types balanced in team. So we benched scorer. Clever move.

Both games are now 1 goal games in the 3rd.

Hughes with 2 assists... nice to see a young fast guy getting a chance and producing. Did I mention the age difference between Chytil and Vrana vs Gulas/Zohorna/Zohorna?

Don't get me wrong, I love my hard working players. I will be wearing a Plekanec jersey during the game. I'm a huge Faksa fan. I think Palat should be in Top 6 despite only 1 point because he is so good at the hard work (and another exceptional skater).

My fear is that I"m coming across anti Czech. I'm the biggest fan every. I just keep seeing the same stupid decision over and over.

FTR - I found another goalie not from NHL with a medal... whoever the Swiss goalie was in final last year. 2 out of 15.

 

[Swipes]

But....does our coaching staff know about hockey analytics?