WC: TEAM CANADA 2023

[JackSlater]

Hey guys are any current players retired from your NT? Tryna make best possible team CANADA in NHL23

It's not like soccer where players announce that they are retired from international competition. Just pick the best players because none of them would be considered retired internationally unless they retired from hockey in general.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Fantili has seemed a little overwhelmed in my opinion. Lots of unforced errors and poor decisions. Probably good for him in the long run.

His processing speed is going to cause him some issues at the next level IMO.

 

[bossram]

Tough tournament this year. Nondescript roster to start, Veleno sent home in disgrace, Fantilli- the only prospective A level talent- suspended. Disapointing they haven't found a way to use his skills better.
Tempting to forfeit the next game, close down a bar somewhere and fly the boys home. But I believe we've backed into the QF so need to tough it out. Unless things improve, we may stagger into the QF on an 0-3 run.

Honestly on paper, the Canadians had by far the strongest roster in the tournament. A team full of NHLers, save for Fantilli.

Every top nation (FIN, SWE, USA, SUI, CZE) is missing most of their best players. Roster participation is not the problem.

They thought Norway would be a joke and played like dogs***. They didn’t care and didn’t execute. That’s the problem.

 

[ORRFForever]

Honestly on paper, the Canadians had by far the strongest roster in the tournament. A team full of NHLers, save for Fantilli.

Every top nation (FIN, SWE, USA, SUI, CZE) is missing most of their best players. Roster participation is not the problem.

They thought Norway would be a joke and played like dogs***. They didn’t care and didn’t execute. That’s the problem.

Maybe the team comes together once the playoffs starts? If not... meh, life will go one and we will forget about this tournament by Monday of next week.

 

[bossram]

Maybe the team comes together once the playoffs starts? If not... meh, life will go one and we will forget about this tournament by Monday of next week.

I mean, on balance I agree. But there is no tangible reason why this Canada roster should not be winning the tournament. They have way better depth than any other nation.

 

[FriarChill]

Any info on Fantilli yet? Will he get a suspension?

 

[Hamilton Bulldogs]

Maybe the team comes together once the playoffs starts? If not... meh, life will go one and we will forget about this tournament by Monday of next week.

I ain't forgetting.

When you see someone throw a muffin at marner durnin the season, you'll know where it came from.

 

[NyQuil]

I mean, on balance I agree. But there is no tangible reason why this Canada roster should not be winning the tournament. They have way better depth than any other nation.

But our high-end talent is worse than Switzerland's.

Depth isn't much of an advantage when you are playing European teams who are used to the big ice, NHLers or not.

Any Canadian roster can win a medal, but in the absence of established top talent they have to work and will their way to victory and they aren't.

 

[jj cale]

Our best game by a mile today, full 60 minutes effort and Monty again played well.

Still don't think the offense is going to be enough to get it done but I would still at least like to make the semis and then see where the chips fall, anything can happen in one game.

 

[jj cale]

Any info on Fantilli yet? Will he get a suspension?

He played today, you're probably already aware of that.

 

[MeHateHe]

The question of how we get guys to go is an interesting topic. Back when the Olympics were a thing that NHLers attended (remember those halcyon days?) Hockey Canada had been telling guys that previous experience with Hockey Canada would tip the balance for bubble players, so you would think that with Cortina coming up, that might spur the interest of players who would make a real difference at the worlds, and who might otherwise be on the outside looking in for Olympics.

But I'll bring my union organizer experience to bear here and say Hockey Canada needs to do the work, and not just in March and April leading up to the tournament. For one, they have players come through their events multiple times a year - the U17 tournament, the Hlinka/Gretzky tournament, the U20 and U18 tournaments - and they need to lay some groundwork down there. You can play the patriotism card, although that is the last bastion of scoundrels, or you can play the loyalty card (which is related to the patriotism card, but less scoundrelly). But you can also talk in practical terms of how these tournaments matter in relation to the Olympics, which the players do actually care about. A string of good results will give Canada a favourable draw in the Olympics, and a string of bad results will mean Canada has to get through Finland/Sweden/US earlier than we'd like.

And the thing about organizing people is that it has to happen frequently and early. Hockey Canada need to reach out to players early - like during NHL training camps - just to ask them to keep the national team program in their minds. Of course, in September everyone is a Stanley Cup contender, so no player wants to think about an early end to the season, but if you remind them about the reasons outlined in the previous paragraph, you might get guys more amenable if the ask comes in April.

And finally, the best organizing comes from friends/colleagues/peers. Hockey Canada should get guys who have gone to worlds, had good experiences, to reach out to teammates and friends on other teams to help recruit guys. Again, that work needs to start in September/October. Similarly, get some guys with lots of world championship experience - Shane Doan, Ryan Smyth, for example - to help spread the word.

Ultimately, you need to get Canadian players excited about playing for their country. They're super excited to go for the U20 tournament. They're super excited to go to the Olympics. They need to hear that while the worlds is in some ways a consolation prize, it is still important in the overall Hockey Canada program and is worth the effort for players to put in when they can.

 

[bossram]

But our high-end talent is worse than Switzerland's.

Depth isn't much of an advantage when you are playing European teams who are used to the big ice, NHLers or not.

Any Canadian roster can win a medal, but in the absence of established top talent they have to work and will their way to victory and they aren't.

The Swiss do have Fiala and Hischier there, but Canada also has the best defenseman at the tournament.

Their depth should be able to give them sufficient scoring from all lines

 

[Fjorden]

But our high-end talent is worse than Switzerland's.

Depth isn't much of an advantage when you are playing European teams who are used to the big ice, NHLers or not.

Any Canadian roster can win a medal, but in the absence of established top talent they have to work and will their way to victory and they aren't.

This wc is not played on big ice. (60x30 meter).

It is played on finnish rink. That is 60x28 meter. Not 60x30 meter interntational rink. (NHL rink 61x26 meter). They use this finnish rink in Finland and Russia(KHL).

The rink is 2 meter wider than a NHL rink,, but also 2 meter tighter than the standard european rink they use in SHL, DEL, Switzerland. It's something in between NHL and european standard rink. So both european players and North americans have to adapt.

 

[NyQuil]

So both european players and North americans have to adapt.

Not the Finns.

Canada has won Gold on international ice frequently, but I still think it's a disadvantage.

 

[Rob]

The question of how we get guys to go is an interesting topic. Back when the Olympics were a thing that NHLers attended (remember those halcyon days?) Hockey Canada had been telling guys that previous experience with Hockey Canada would tip the balance for bubble players, so you would think that with Cortina coming up, that might spur the interest of players who would make a real difference at the worlds, and who might otherwise be on the outside looking in for Olympics.

But I'll bring my union organizer experience to bear here and say Hockey Canada needs to do the work, and not just in March and April leading up to the tournament. For one, they have players come through their events multiple times a year - the U17 tournament, the Hlinka/Gretzky tournament, the U20 and U18 tournaments - and they need to lay some groundwork down there. You can play the patriotism card, although that is the last bastion of scoundrels, or you can play the loyalty card (which is related to the patriotism card, but less scoundrelly). But you can also talk in practical terms of how these tournaments matter in relation to the Olympics, which the players do actually care about. A string of good results will give Canada a favourable draw in the Olympics, and a string of bad results will mean Canada has to get through Finland/Sweden/US earlier than we'd like.

And the thing about organizing people is that it has to happen frequently and early. Hockey Canada need to reach out to players early - like during NHL training camps - just to ask them to keep the national team program in their minds. Of course, in September everyone is a Stanley Cup contender, so no player wants to think about an early end to the season, but if you remind them about the reasons outlined in the previous paragraph, you might get guys more amenable if the ask comes in April.

And finally, the best organizing comes from friends/colleagues/peers. Hockey Canada should get guys who have gone to worlds, had good experiences, to reach out to teammates and friends on other teams to help recruit guys. Again, that work needs to start in September/October. Similarly, get some guys with lots of world championship experience - Shane Doan, Ryan Smyth, for example - to help spread the word.

Ultimately, you need to get Canadian players excited about playing for their country. They're super excited to go for the U20 tournament. They're super excited to go to the Olympics. They need to hear that while the worlds is in some ways a consolation prize, it is still important in the overall Hockey Canada program and is worth the effort for players to put in when they can.

The problem is most fans in Canada don't care. So the players don't feel pressure to participate.
One possible solution would be for Canada to actual hold the tournament once in a while. Unfortunately there is no demand.

 

[krutais23]

It's not like soccer where players announce that they are retired from international competition. Just pick the best players because none of them would be considered retired internationally unless they retired from hockey in general.

There are a lot of players that are retired from NT, but continue playing - Arturs Kulda, Kristaps Sotnieks, Maris Bicevskis, Martins Karsums, Gints Meija, Julian Jakobsen, Ramon Untersander, Fabio Hofer, so yeah idk how much you follow the international competition to say that they do not retire from NT

 

[MeHateHe]

The problem is most fans in Canada don't care. So the players don't feel pressure to participate.
One possible solution would be for Canada to actual hold the tournament once in a while. Unfortunately there is no demand.

That is certainly a problem, which is why Hockey Canada has to take the lead. It matters to their bottom line, surely, and it matters to their competitiveness - given that rankings based on results lead to better seedings down the road.

 

[joestevens29]

The problem is most fans in Canada don't care. So the players don't feel pressure to participate.
One possible solution would be for Canada to actual hold the tournament once in a while. Unfortunately there is no demand.

It being on during the NHL playoffs sure doesn't help either.

More and more players really aren't going. Usually getting guys with something to prove more than anything.

NHL season also takes a toll on a lot of these guys and they rather take some time off before they start their training for the summer.

 

[JackSlater]

There are a lot of players that are retired from NT, but continue playing - Arturs Kulda, Kristaps Sotnieks, Maris Bicevskis, Martins Karsums, Gints Meija, Julian Jakobsen, Ramon Untersander, Fabio Hofer, so yeah idk how much you follow the international competition to say that they do not retire from NT

Good luck finding all of the Canadian players who have announced that they are retired from "the national team". You aren't going to find them, but I wish you luck regardless.

 

[JackSlater]

The question of how we get guys to go is an interesting topic. Back when the Olympics were a thing that NHLers attended (remember those halcyon days?) Hockey Canada had been telling guys that previous experience with Hockey Canada would tip the balance for bubble players, so you would think that with Cortina coming up, that might spur the interest of players who would make a real difference at the worlds, and who might otherwise be on the outside looking in for Olympics.

But I'll bring my union organizer experience to bear here and say Hockey Canada needs to do the work, and not just in March and April leading up to the tournament. For one, they have players come through their events multiple times a year - the U17 tournament, the Hlinka/Gretzky tournament, the U20 and U18 tournaments - and they need to lay some groundwork down there. You can play the patriotism card, although that is the last bastion of scoundrels, or you can play the loyalty card (which is related to the patriotism card, but less scoundrelly). But you can also talk in practical terms of how these tournaments matter in relation to the Olympics, which the players do actually care about. A string of good results will give Canada a favourable draw in the Olympics, and a string of bad results will mean Canada has to get through Finland/Sweden/US earlier than we'd like.

And the thing about organizing people is that it has to happen frequently and early. Hockey Canada need to reach out to players early - like during NHL training camps - just to ask them to keep the national team program in their minds. Of course, in September everyone is a Stanley Cup contender, so no player wants to think about an early end to the season, but if you remind them about the reasons outlined in the previous paragraph, you might get guys more amenable if the ask comes in April.

And finally, the best organizing comes from friends/colleagues/peers. Hockey Canada should get guys who have gone to worlds, had good experiences, to reach out to teammates and friends on other teams to help recruit guys. Again, that work needs to start in September/October. Similarly, get some guys with lots of world championship experience - Shane Doan, Ryan Smyth, for example - to help spread the word.

Ultimately, you need to get Canadian players excited about playing for their country. They're super excited to go for the U20 tournament. They're super excited to go to the Olympics. They need to hear that while the worlds is in some ways a consolation prize, it is still important in the overall Hockey Canada program and is worth the effort for players to put in when they can.

Players cannot be contacted to participate in the IIHF world championship until their team is eliminated from the playoffs. It's directly written into the CBA (section 24.6 (b)) so earlier contact will not be happening.

 

[MeHateHe]

Players cannot be contacted to participate in the IIHF world championship until their team is eliminated from the playoffs. It's directly written into the CBA (section 24.6 (b)) so earlier contact will not be happening.

Thanks for pointing that out. Who knew I would learn a new thing on these boards?

The language says national teams/agents/representatives can't ask if players would be willing to play, but that doesn't explicitly exclude them from having information sessions about, say, how decisions get made around Olympics participation and what planning the national federation is doing in advance of that. IANAL but as long as there's no inquiry, it doesn't violate the letter of the agreement.

In any event, those conversations wouldn't be effective if the foundational work of encouraging players to show some loyalty to their federation or patriotism to their country while those players are passing through the U17/U18/U20 programs. I don't know for sure that isn't happening, but I suspect if it is, it's soft-sold and has clearly not been effective.

I'm only relaying my own experience with organizing people: you won't get people participating if you don't ask, and usually ask multiple times over a period of time, and make it clear what benefit it is to them. Results on this tournament and a few others suggest those things aren't happening.

 

[NyQuil]

I still think that the biggest incentive is a city that player wives and girlfriends want to visit.

 

[JackSlater]

Thanks for pointing that out. Who knew I would learn a new thing on these boards?

The language says national teams/agents/representatives can't ask if players would be willing to play, but that doesn't explicitly exclude them from having information sessions about, say, how decisions get made around Olympics participation and what planning the national federation is doing in advance of that. IANAL but as long as there's no inquiry, it doesn't violate the letter of the agreement.

In any event, those conversations wouldn't be effective if the foundational work of encouraging players to show some loyalty to their federation or patriotism to their country while those players are passing through the U17/U18/U20 programs. I don't know for sure that isn't happening, but I suspect if it is, it's soft-sold and has clearly not been effective.

I'm only relaying my own experience with organizing people: you won't get people participating if you don't ask, and usually ask multiple times over a period of time, and make it clear what benefit it is to them. Results on this tournament and a few others suggest those things aren't happening.

I don't think it needs to be that formal. In the past the players generally knew to show up once in a while to boost their chances, but without best on best hockey the "threat" is completely empty.

I don't think that loyalty and patriotism are going to yield tremendous results. For the most part Americans are more patriotic than Canadians and the Americans who went through the American development program "owe" more to their federation than Canadian players do, but USA still does a piss poor job recruiting players.

If the NHL had a firm World Cup tournament lined up, that would help participation. As it draws closer to the 2026 Olympics you'll see better players too. There should even be an uptick for Canadians if Canada is in the Prague group next year and/or the Stockholm group the year after. Maybe.

Even if that doesn't happen I doubt Hockey Canada does anything significant to get players to say yes. The organization has been widely pilloried over what amounts to allegations and exaggerated lack of financial clarity. As noted earlier in the thread there was even pushback this spring from agents and the NHLPA over Hockey Canada adding a sort of "character clause" for the tournament this year. Is it willing to pick a fight, even a small one, with players over the IIHF world championship? I can't see it.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I still think that the biggest incentive is a city that player wives and girlfriends want to visit.

This 100% lol

 

[bossram]

I still think that the biggest incentive is a city that player wives and girlfriends want to visit.

This 100% lol

But like every major European city is a tourist destination and the tournament is always in Europe. Hasn't seemed to help lol.