Team Canada 2022

[86Habs]

Some don’t seem to think he has a place on the team, which is a little crazy to me. Marner’s one of the absolute top offensive weapons in the league and has proven capable (if not necessarily recently) of being quite good defensively as well. A guy who could play anywhere from first to fourth line on this team.

Marner's defensive play and penalty killing capability might be what secures him a spot on this team, as its common for Hockey Canada, especially during the Yzerman/Armstrong/Babcock regime, to pass over smallish, playmaking-oriented wingers (see Martin St. Louis in 2010 and 2014).

 

[zeke]

Some don’t seem to think he has a place on the team, which is a little crazy to me. .

So maybe leafs fans aren't the ones you should be criticizing in this thread?

 

[Zybalto]

Marner's defensive play and penalty killing capability might be what secures him a spot on this team, as its common for Hockey Canada, especially during the Yzerman/Armstrong/Babcock regime, to pass over smallish, playmaking-oriented wingers (see Martin St. Louis in 2010 and 2014).

St. Louis was on the 2006 team and team that won gold in 2014. He was only left off the team in 2010.(which most considered a snub)

In his 2008-2009 year (his last full year before selection for the 2010 team), he finished tied for 16th in points was and was an NHL all star (no first or second team)

Marner finished this past season 4th in the NHL in points, was a first team NHL all star, got into the top 10 for Selke votes for the first time, and was one of the best PK forwards in the league.

On the surface, leaving Marner off the team would be one of the biggest snubs we've seen in team Canada history, if not the biggest.

 

[zeke]

During Babcock's tenure there's been little difference between ice time/overall usage for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd lines. Generally, Babcock's 4th lines have received limited ice time, which was true again in 2016, and he may have ridden the Crosby line a little harder in 2016 than he did in previous tournaments given how dominant they were. I don't have ice times for the 2016 tournament in front of me, but as an example of Babcock's forward deployment in the 2014 epic semi-final game against the U.S., Jeff Carter received the most ice time of any forward. In the gold medal game, it was Toews then Getzlaf.

I remember Getzlaf and Perry playing together in 2016 (why would Babcock split them up?), but its been five years so I could easily be wrong.

Seguin was injured and didn't play in the tournament (as were Benn and Carter). O'Reilly, Perry and Couture were their replacements. Giroux only dressed one game, apparently to give Getzlaf a meaningless round robin game off.

Yep that sounds right.

My descriptions were more about deployment than ice time - while the Crosby line was used in all situations I'm pretty sure the Getzlaf line received the bulk of the secondary offensive deployments while the toews line got the bulk of the secondary defensive deployments.

And let's all remember of course that Babcock had very questionable tactics for his insanely talented roster, too.

 

[Zybalto]

During Babcock's tenure there's been little difference between ice time/overall usage for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd lines. Generally, Babcock's 4th lines have received limited ice time, which was true again in 2016, and he may have ridden the Crosby line a little harder in 2016 than he did in previous tournaments given how dominant they were. I don't have ice times for the 2016 tournament in front of me, but as an example of Babcock's forward deployment in the 2014 epic semi-final game against the U.S., Jeff Carter received the most ice time of any forward. In the gold medal game, it was Toews then Getzlaf.

I remember Getzlaf and Perry playing together in 2016 (why would Babcock split them up?), but its been five years so I could easily be wrong.

Seguin was injured and didn't play in the tournament (as were Benn and Carter). O'Reilly, Perry and Couture were their replacements. Giroux only dressed one game, apparently to give Getzlaf a meaningless round robin game off.

The Toews line was used as a matchup line against other teams top forwards in 2016 with great results. Re-watched the semi-finals game against Russia the other day and I could barely even tell Ovi was playing that game he was checked so well by that line.

 

[86Habs]

St. Louis was on the 2006 team and team that won gold in 2014. He was only left off the team in 2010.(which most considered a snub)

In his 2008-2009 year (his last full year before selection for the 2010 team), he finished tied for 16th in points was and was an NHL all star (no first or second team)

Marner finished this past season 4th in the NHL in points, was a first team NHL all star, got into the top 10 for Selke votes for the first time, and was one of the best PK forwards in the league.

On the surface, leaving Marner off the team would be one of the biggest snubs we've seen in team Canada history, if not the biggest.

St. Louis and Stamkos were both in the top 5 in the NHL in points at the end of December 2009, when the roster was announced. Both were seen as huge snubs at the time, particularly MSL considering a then relatively unknown (and pre-Selke) Bergeron was selected at RW instead of him.

MSL was originally left off the 2014 team, and was only named to the team as Stamkos's replacement when he got injured. He won the Art Ross trophy in 2013 and was having a strong season in TB before the trade.

 

[Zybalto]

St. Louis and Stamkos were both in the top 5 in the NHL in points at the end of December 2009, when the roster was announced. Both were seen as huge snubs at the time, particularly MSL considering a then relatively unknown (and pre-Selke) Bergeron was selected at RW instead of him.

MSL was originally left off the 2014 team, and was only named to the team as Stamkos's replacement when he got injured. He won the Art Ross trophy in 2013 and was having a strong season in TB before the trade.

Thanks for the context. Even then, I don't think theres a precedent where a 1st team NHL all star has been left off a national team.

 

[86Habs]

The Toews line was used as a matchup line against other teams top forwards in 2016 with great results. Re-watched the semi-finals game against Russia the other day and I could barely even tell Ovi was playing that game he was checked so well by that line.

The Toews lines were outstanding in 2010 (Toews/Richards/Nash) and 2014 (Toews/Carter/Marleau) in shutdown roles, and also contributed some key goals. I thought Toews was our best player in both tournaments, with Carter being a close second in 2014. I don't remember 2016 quite as well, but do recall Toews and Couture being very good (I'm more fuzzy on Stamkos's contributions).

 

[Zybalto]

The Toews lines were outstanding in 2010 (Toews/Richards/Nash) and 2014 (Toews/Carter/Marleau) in shutdown roles, and also contributed some key goals. I thought Toews was our best player in both tournaments, with Carter being a close second in 2014. I don't remember 2016 quite as well, but do recall Toews and Couture being very good (I'm more fuzzy on Stamkos's contributions).

The Stamkos line was considered snakebit (especially Stamkos who hit like 5 posts) but was pretty much dominant in zone time grinding down other lines with their board play. They were probably the best line in that Canada/Russia game I watched.

Now that it's come out the game is being played on NHL ice, it's why I'm a fan of a Tavares/O'Reilly/Stamkos 4th line as we saw how effective the line was not long ago.

 

[86Habs]

Thanks for the context. Even then, I don't think theres a precedent where a 1st team NHL all star has been left off a national team.

I don't think there have been in the Olympic/NHL era (Staal was in the midst of a season in which he'd be the 2nd team all-star at center and finished 4th in Hart voting when he was snubbed from the 2006 team). For the record, I have Marner on my team and think he'll be selected. But as far as outrageous snubs go, let me tell you about Mike Keenan's 1987 and 1991 teams...

 

[86Habs]

The Stamkos line was considered snakebit (especially Stamkos who hit like 5 posts) but was pretty much dominant in zone time grinding down other lines with their board play. They were probably the best line in that Canada/Russia game I watched.

Now that it's come out the game is being played on NHL ice, it's why I'm a fan of a Tavares/O'Reilly/Stamkos 4th line as we saw how effective the line was not long ago.

Depends on how you line it up, I guess. I like O'Reilly on the wing, adding a defensive presence and forechecking ability (without losing much in the way of offense) to either the McDavid or MacKinnon lines. I'd be happy with Scheifele or Couturier centering our 4th line. I don't disagree that Tavares would be serviceable in a 4th line LW role. I don't think Tavares is someone we should build around, in terms of having him centering a line with Marner. I'd be fine with him in a supporting role, and have little concern that he'd do an adequate job in that role. Same goes for Stamkos, I guess, but I do believe that Armstrong will bring in one or two younger players this time around.

 

[ORRFForever]

McDavid --- Crosby --- MacKinnon
Marchand --- Point --- Marner
Couturier --- O'Reilly --- Stone
Tavares --- Bergeron --- Barzal
(Huberdeau --- Scheifele - Stamkos)

Go with the proven two-way cup caliber Cs up the middle. (Though probably swap old man bergy out to the wing too and let Barzal be 4C).

Let McD and Mack loose on the wings.

Get the best defensive line in the world as the 3rd line.

Then add the remainijg best 3 guys that aren't defensive liabilities as the 4th line.

Huberdeau, Scheifele, Stamkos would be on the outside looking in for me given their defensive deficiencies.

Toews could make a play for a spot too if he comes back strong.

"Oof marone" - Paulie Walnuts

 

[Zybalto]

I don't think there have been in the Olympic/NHL era (Staal was in the midst of a season in which he'd be the 2nd team all-star at center and finished 4th in Hart voting when he was snubbed from the 2006 team). For the record, I have Marner on my team and think he'll be selected. But as far as outrageous snubs go, let me tell you about Mike Keenan's 1987 and 1991 teams...

...but Steve Yzerman couldnt win the big games and captained teams who couldnt get it done in the playoffs and had missed the playoffs the year before in a friggin 21 team league. Obviously a career loser who was never going to win anything right?

(that sounds familiar)

It's that mentality that leads to 2006 disasters when picking teams. Pick the best players period.

 

[Mathieukferland]

...but Steve Yzerman couldnt win the big games and captained teams who couldnt get it done in the playoffs and had missed the playoffs the year before in a friggin 21 team league. Obviously a career loser who was never going to win anything right?

(that sounds familiar)

It's that mentality that leads to 2006 disasters when picking teams. Pick the best players period.

What were the main issues in 2006 that can be learned as to not repeat that debacle

 

[86Habs]

What were the main issues in 2006 that can be learned as to not repeat that debacle

Biggest issue with 2006 is that Niedermayer was injured and didn't play in the Olympics. Pronger and Blake were banged up. We iced a team without an elite PMD, as Boyle (Niedermayer's best substitute) remained on the taxi squad instead of actually dressing for games.

Second issue was Gretzky's loyalty to more experienced veterans (Bertuzzi, Smyth, Doan) at the expense of elite young talent (Staal, Crosby).

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

He was iirc the youngest forward on the team, and, as you said, was injured.

He also had 0 points in 4 games prior to being injured. So it's not like he was an integral part of the roster even before he got hurt. And that's the thing. He was 24 years old, smack dab in his offensive prime. Today, he'll be 31 years old and he's slowing down from the player he was at 24.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Tavares isn't good defensively? He is a top usage center with very good impact metrics on both ends of the ice. This isn't a Stamkos or huberdeau or scheifele who have serious issues in their own end, even when in a relatively sheltered winger role.

Relatively speaking. He's not good enough defensively to be used in situations where guys like O'Reilly, Couturier, Bergeron, Toews, etc. would make the team as 4th line defensive/PK specialists. He'd only make the team as an offensive player, and he's just not one of Canada's top offensive guys at this point to make a top 6 line.

IF he makes the team, it'll be as the 12th or 13th forward. I highly, highly doubt you'll see him anywhere near line 1 or line 2 (he's not touching line 3 assuming that's the Marchand/Crosby/Bergeron line).

 

[Zybalto]

What were the main issues in 2006 that can be learned as to not repeat that debacle

Snubbing our best players for "role players" or those perceived as being winners or experienced at the expense of youth.

Crosby was a rookie but was already tearing the league up (31 points in 31 games) but was left off. Spezza and Staal (in the midst of a 100 point season) put on the taxi squad. Even wanting to keep some older guys went wrong when 2002 gold medalist Kariya, who was so good on the open ice and in the midst of a 30 goal, 85+ point season, was left off.

No offense to Kris Draper but......mistakes were made.

 

[86Habs]

For the record, this is my best guess at what I think the forward group looks like right now:

Huberdeau / McDavid / Point
O'Reilly / MacKinnon / Marner
Marchand / Crosby / Bergeron
Couturier / Scheifele / Stone
Barzal, Suzuki

For me, the biggest question marks are:
- Can Couturier playing out-of-position on the wing? If Armstrong determines that he's not versatile enough to move to the wing (he has no history doing so), I'd look for Tavares or Stamkos (RHS who can play the left side) to be selected in that position. Both are still good, valuable players - not at the level they once were, but still able to contribute. Couturier is perhaps the most tentative of my forward picks, tbh.
- Can Bergeron maintain his level of play from 2020-2021? If so, the current Crosby line would presumably start the tournament. If his play deteriorates, I'd look for him to get moved down the lineup into a more defensive role
- Suzuki's start to the season. At this point, there is a narrative around Suzuki that reminds me of the narrative around Toews after the 2009 season, and I think he has an inside shot at the team. He's very versatile. Remember that Toews started the 2010 Olympics as the 13th forward and presumed shootout specialist.
- Can Toews bounce back? If he's back and near his 2019 form, I don't see how Armstrong passes on him. His international experience is so extensive, and he's had so much success internationally for us that even his presence in the locker room might make it worthwhile to select him.
- Vets like Benn, Seguin and Couture are still solid NHLers, but would need to do something incredible to work themselves onto this team. Highly unlikely any of them make it, imo.

 

[zeke]

He also had 0 points in 4 games prior to being injured. So it's not like he was an integral part of the roster even before he got hurt. And that's the thing. He was 24 years old, smack dab in his offensive prime. Today, he'll be 31 years old and he's slowing down from the player he was at 24.



Relatively speaking. He's not good enough defensively to be used in situations where guys like O'Reilly, Couturier, Bergeron, Toews, etc. would make the team as 4th line defensive/PK specialists. He'd only make the team as an offensive player, and he's just not one of Canada's top offensive guys at this point to make a top 6 line.

IF he makes the team, it'll be as the 12th or 13th forward. I highly, highly doubt you'll see him anywhere near line 1 or line 2 (he's not touching line 3 assuming that's the Marchand/Crosby/Bergeron line).

Last time out, the lines were:

Marchand - Crosby - Bergeron
Tavares - Getzlaf - Stamkos
Couture - Toews - Perry
Thornton - O'Reilly - Duchene/Giroux/Seguin

as you can see, your description of offensive/defensive roles wouldn't have fit that team very well - the 4th line, for example, had only one guy there for his defense, with arguably the weakest defensive players on the team alongside him.

I agree a top-6 would most likely include McDavid, MacKinnon, Crosby, Point, Marchand, Marner. All 6 elite producers with dominant two-way games.

A Toews-like checking line could feature three defensive beasts like Couturier-O'Reilly-Stone, for example.

Anything can change this year but those 9 guys I see as automatics at this point. For my last 3 guys I probably lean towards Barzal, Bergeron, and Tavares, as all three are all currently tough usage centers with very good results on both ends of the ice. I have to note though that at age 36 Bergy is declining and needs to prove he's still up there during the season this year.

Personally, like I said, I see the guys who are legitimately defensively weak as Stamkos, Huberdeau, Scheifele - guys who either currently get relatively sheltered winger usage or get exposed defensively in tough center usage. So those would probably be my extra skaters at this point, despite their solid production.

And Toews is a wildcard - if he somehow comes back strong at age 33 after missing a year with long covid, then he puts himself back in the mix too.

All that being said, we've come off of two weird short seasons, and a lot will be determined by how the players play in the first half of the season, i think.

 

[JackSlater]

pretty much this.

I gave up on this thread until we see at least 25 games. at least.

You're wiser than I am. I read this and ponder how things got this way.

There is little discussion of the defence group, which is the most interesting aspect of the team that I'll be monitoring over the next few months. The forward group is substantially determined, imo.

Oh yeah I think that the forwards are nearly set. Maybe 16 guys going for 14 spots. The defence looks like nearly as many going for only 8 spots.

“Highlights” include

1. Tom Wilson must be brought for grit
2. Mitch Marner wouldn’t make Team Canada C
3. Bo Horvat being given any chance of making it as he adds a “surprise element”
4. Brad Marchand has declined too much and is not needed
5. John Tavares needs to be riding shotgun in the top 6 due to his elite skating ability

The takes on Stone and the discussion regarding the impact of time on a tournament that should take place in 5 months or so are also noteworthy, high end stuff.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Hmm why is there two threads discussing the Team Canada 2022 roster, mods can we get them merged?

 

[Gold Standard]

Hmm why is there two threads discussing the Team Canada 2022 roster, mods can we get them merged?

This thread was actually started in another forum and and was moved to international tournaments where it should have been created initially...except without the Olympic header. as a Team Canada Olympic thread already existed. created in 2017 for the 2018 Olympics.

You are correct, they should be merged into one.