Taylor Hall For Adam Larsson V | 4,000+ Posts and Counting!

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

Lucic + Larsson for Taylor Hall is fair value??

I am absolutely flabbergasted on how overrated Taylor Hall has become on this board by some all of a sudden. He's a great player, but this is just getting insane.

We all saw FIRST HAND how Hall's offense gets replaced. His name is Connor McDavid. How are some of you forgetting the absolute cliff Hall feel off of the second McDavid returned?

They're worth more than Hall, but it would depend on a lot of things including contracts.

Good teams don't have one player or even just one line that produce. We lost more with McDavid than without. We can't depend on McDavid alone. Pittsburgh depended on Crosby (and Malkin!) alone for years and got nowhere.

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

But the Hall trade was absolutely a result of knowing u had Lucic in th bag. U r kidding urself if u don't think the Lucic signing had a direct effect on PCs decision

I get that but I don't think you can include that when evaluating the trade itself. It was just Hall for Larsson.

 

[Replacement*]

Question/disclosure.

I've heard 100 times in the thread how valuable Larsson is partly due to him being RHD. So I've asked countless times for people to elaborate on that if they could. I've missed if anybody has done that.

I understand that RHD are in somewhat shorter supply, but have no idea how much, or how to even look that up. I heard you can sort for RH LH in NHL stats but looked through that interface for half an hour not figuring it out.

I understood D are better at playing respective sides according to RH/LH. That makes sense.

B the whole concept of RH in short supply is odd to me because I'm right handed and I shoot right. This I guess sets up an age old discussion and one of the biggest mysteries of hockey. Myself I'd literally be unable to play shooting left handed and holding stick that way. Its one reason I've never understood the disparity or why coaches would tell kids to shoot left. Seems to me kids that ignore this advice and shoot right have a higher probability of success in the NHl due to the handedness disparity. I think I played much better because of shooting right.

hope I'm being clear in the post, while being hopelessly confused about this my whole life.

 

[Replacement*]

But the Hall trade was absolutely a result of knowing u had Lucic in th bag. U r kidding urself if u don't think the Lucic signing had a direct effect on PCs decision

But this doesn't account that Hall+Lucic was also a possibility. Its why its unbalanced accounting of the respective moved assets.

Its not an essential given that its either/or.

 

[Oildrum]

Question/disclosure.

I've heard 100 times in the thread how valuable Larsson is partly due to him being RHD. So I've asked countless times for people to elaborate on that if they could. I've missed if anybody has done that.

I understand that RHD are in somewhat shorter supply, but have no idea how much, or how to even look that up. I heard you can sort for RH LH in NHL stats but looked through that interface for half an hour not figuring it out.

I understood D are better at playing respective sides according to RH/LH. That makes sense.

B the whole concept of RH in short supply is odd to me because I'm right handed and I shoot right. This I guess sets up an age old discussion and one of the biggest mysteries of hockey. Myself I'd literally be unable to play shooting left handed and holding stick that way. Its one reason I've never understood the disparity or why coaches would tell kids to shoot left. Seems to me kids that ignore this advice and shoot right have a higher probability of success in the NHl due to the handedness disparity. I think I played much better because of shooting right.

hope I'm being clear in the post, while being hopelessly confused about this my whole life.

Trying to find some info for your post I stumbled upon an interesting perspective from before the trade from a Leafs fan:
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/3/13/11217120/a-right-handed-defenseman

Listing Larsson as a RHD that would be "very hard to trade for". Also he gives a good breakdown of who is actually out there in terms of RHD, and a link to a story regarding the importance of handedness


This may have been posted before but I'm not reading through 4000 posts

 

[Elric]

Question/disclosure.

I've heard 100 times in the thread how valuable Larsson is partly due to him being RHD. So I've asked countless times for people to elaborate on that if they could. I've missed if anybody has done that.

I understand that RHD are in somewhat shorter supply, but have no idea how much, or how to even look that up. I heard you can sort for RH LH in NHL stats but looked through that interface for half an hour not figuring it out.

I understood D are better at playing respective sides according to RH/LH. That makes sense.

B the whole concept of RH in short supply is odd to me because I'm right handed and I shoot right. This I guess sets up an age old discussion and one of the biggest mysteries of hockey. Myself I'd literally be unable to play shooting left handed and holding stick that way. Its one reason I've never understood the disparity or why coaches would tell kids to shoot left. Seems to me kids that ignore this advice and shoot right have a higher probability of success in the NHl due to the handedness disparity. I think I played much better because of shooting right.

hope I'm being clear in the post, while being hopelessly confused about this my whole life.

Your not the only one. Right handed, shoot right, used to have an ok shot. Don't know if I could even hit the puck trying to shoot left. Yet the vast majority of NHL players shoot left??? Maybe you're on to something though. Give Yak a right handed stick. 50 goals!

 

[Panda Bear]

As of 2006, 70% of all NHL defenceman shot left-handed.

65% of all Canadian players shoot left-handed.

 

[iCanada]

Question/disclosure.

I've heard 100 times in the thread how valuable Larsson is partly due to him being RHD. So I've asked countless times for people to elaborate on that if they could. I've missed if anybody has done that.

I understand that RHD are in somewhat shorter supply, but have no idea how much, or how to even look that up. I heard you can sort for RH LH in NHL stats but looked through that interface for half an hour not figuring it out.

I understood D are better at playing respective sides according to RH/LH. That makes sense.

B the whole concept of RH in short supply is odd to me because I'm right handed and I shoot right. This I guess sets up an age old discussion and one of the biggest mysteries of hockey. Myself I'd literally be unable to play shooting left handed and holding stick that way. Its one reason I've never understood the disparity or why coaches would tell kids to shoot left. Seems to me kids that ignore this advice and shoot right have a higher probability of success in the NHl due to the handedness disparity. I think I played much better because of shooting right.

hope I'm being clear in the post, while being hopelessly confused about this my whole life.

Here is a snapshot for you.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...1&aggregate=0&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,60&pos=D

63 RD played more than 60 games last year. 152 defenceman in total played more than 60 games. You can estimate from these numbers that only 41% of defenceman last year that took a regular shift shoot right.

You switch that to played in the NHL period, it is 119 RD and 306 total defenders, for a 38% RD and 62% LD. If you go back 10 years, there have been 325 RD seasons with 60+ games and 868 D seasons with 60+ games; which is around 37.5% RD.

The other thing to keep in mind, is that all things being equal, since there are less RD, the RD makes the team instead of the LD. For example, IIRC, in 2012-13 we played Potter 68 games, and Fistric only 25, but Fistric was a considerably better defenceman, who outpaced Potter in scoring, was more physical, and wasn't eating PP time like Potter was... but we played Potter. Or, Fayne played more than twice Oasterle and Reinhart, despite both players outplaying Fayne all year. So these numbers are skewed at least 5% towards RD's as well. This also happens all the way through the leagues; Right shot players get more opportunities. I personally was told, as a left shooting right side playing Defender as a kid on two separate occasions that the difference between me and the guy they cut me for was purely handedness, although that could just be a line I was fed.

Most Canadians are Right handed Left shots; the idea being from the 60's that it is easier to learn power with your less dominant hand than it is to learn finesse required from stick handling. Truly, it is all kind of hogwash and doesn't matter either way because good training would get either hand there after thousands of hours regardless. Its just a grandfathered thing really, peoples parents did it that way and taught their kids that way, who taught their kids... Haha.

 

[cbzblaze]

Has anyone asked the question of how Taylor Hall will be in New Jersey? They play a very tight structured, system oriented, conservative game. They're a team that makes simple plays in all 3 zones of the rink. That's not Taylor Hall's strong suit. Throw in his turnovers and defensive mistakes. It's no guarantee that he steps in there and makes them any better. I actually believe they take a step back as a team.

I Can't wait to hear how: on a really low scoring team, he still managed to get 70 points while 'Driving' the offense (cause anyone playing with Hall is obviously not as good), while having little to no support from fellow forwards and no help from his defenceman.

 

[Spawn]

Question/disclosure.

I've heard 100 times in the thread how valuable Larsson is partly due to him being RHD. So I've asked countless times for people to elaborate on that if they could. I've missed if anybody has done that.

I understand that RHD are in somewhat shorter supply, but have no idea how much, or how to even look that up. I heard you can sort for RH LH in NHL stats but looked through that interface for half an hour not figuring it out.

I understood D are better at playing respective sides according to RH/LH. That makes sense.

B the whole concept of RH in short supply is odd to me because I'm right handed and I shoot right. This I guess sets up an age old discussion and one of the biggest mysteries of hockey. Myself I'd literally be unable to play shooting left handed and holding stick that way. Its one reason I've never understood the disparity or why coaches would tell kids to shoot left. Seems to me kids that ignore this advice and shoot right have a higher probability of success in the NHl due to the handedness disparity. I think I played much better because of shooting right.

hope I'm being clear in the post, while being hopelessly confused about this my whole life.

I believe that you being right handed and shooting right is less common than being right handed and shooting left. I think most players tend to have their dominant hand at the top of the stick rather than at the middle. That would explain why the bulk of the league is left shot players as the bulk of the population is right handed. Honestly at this point I doubt many coaches are telling kids to shoot either left of right. If I had to guess 9 times out of 10 a kid just ends up shooting the way that feels natural to them when they first pick up a stick. I am left-handed and shoot right, and any time I would pick up a left shot stick it would feel like I had entered a bizarro world.

As for finding players that shoot right in the NHL.

You can break down which way a player shoots under the bios part of the stats page (category: more, report: bios):

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...s&aggregate=0&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,30&pos=D

There were 209 d-men who played at least 30 games last year. Of those d-men only 87 of them shoot right. So it's basically a 60/40 split in terms of left shot vs right shot d-men in the league. So it explains why there is a premium on them.

For curiosities sake, I took a look at forwards too. Minimum 30 games played, 145 of 407 shoot right. 65/35 left vs right for forwards.

 

[Replacement*]

Here is a snapshot for you.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...1&aggregate=0&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,60&pos=D

63 RD played more than 60 games last year. 152 defenceman in total played more than 60 games. You can estimate from these numbers that only 41% of defenceman last year that took a regular shift shoot right.

You switch that to played in the NHL period, it is 119 RD and 306 total defenders, for a 38% RD and 62% LD. If you go back 10 years, there have been 325 RD seasons with 60+ games and 868 D seasons with 60+ games; which is around 37.5% RD.

The other thing to keep in mind, is that all things being equal, since there are less RD, the RD makes the team instead of the LD. For example, IIRC, in 2012-13 we played Potter 68 games, and Fistric only 25, but Fistric was a considerably better defenceman, who outpaced Potter in scoring, was more physical, and wasn't eating PP time like Potter was... but we played Potter. Or, Fayne played more than twice Oasterle and Reinhart, despite both players outplaying Fayne all year. So these numbers are skewed at least 5% towards RD's as well.

Most Canadians are Right handed Left shots; the idea being from the 60's that it is easier to learn power with your less dominant hand than it is to learn finesse required from stick handling. Truly, it is all kind of hogwash and doesn't matter either way because good training would get either hand there after thousands of hours regardless. Its just a grandfathered thing really, peoples parents did it that way and taught their kids that way, who taught their kids... Haha.

Thanks for the link and background, that is interesting, but I can't figure out how to use the NHL stats interface to delineate handedness and select that.

heh, being a natural rebel I defied and shot the right handed way I wanted to. Always questioned authority,

 

[Replacement*]

I believe that you being right handed and shooting right is less common than being right handed and shooting left. I think most players tend to have their dominant hand at the top of the stick rather than at the middle. That would explain why the bulk of the league is left shot players as the bulk of the population is right handed. Honestly at this point I doubt many coaches are telling kids to shoot either left of right. If I had to guess 9 times out of 10 a kid just ends up shooting the way that feels natural to them when they first pick up a stick. I am left-handed and shoot right, and any time I would pick up a left shot stick it would feel like I had entered a bizarro world.


You can break down which way a player shoots under the bios part of the stats page:

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...s&aggregate=0&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,30&pos=D

There were 209 d-men who played at least 30 games last year. Of those d-men only 87 of them shoot right. So it's basically a 60/40 split in terms of left shot vs right shot d-men in the league. So it explains why there is a premium on them.

For curiosities sake, I took a look at forwards too. Minimum 30 games played, 145 of 407 shoot right. 65/35 left vs right for forwards.

I don't see any dropdown from the bios allowing selection for handedness

The stats userface since the changeover a year ago is a nightmare to use. No idea how to find information.

 

[Spawn]

I don't see any dropdown from the bios allowing selection for handedness

The stats userface since the changeover a year ago is a nightmare to use. No idea how to find information.

Once you get the bios report you can sort the categories in the player list. Click on the S/C above the players names and that will sort them by which way they shoot. I don't know if there is a way to just select left/right shot and then sort those players by catagory. Like I'm not sure if you can find the top 10 right shot point producers without sorting that page by scoring and then looking down the list and seeing which players are left/right shots.

And I agree with the NHL interface. They've made a lot of thing much more difficult to find, and in some cases the information seems to just be gone.

 

[booyakasha]

Has anyone asked the question of how Taylor Hall will be in New Jersey? They play a very tight structured, system oriented, conservative game. They're a team that makes simple plays in all 3 zones of the rink. That's not Taylor Hall's strong suit. Throw in his turnovers and defensive mistakes. It's no guarantee that he steps in there and makes them any better. I actually believe they take a step back as a team.

I Can't wait to hear how: on a really low scoring team, he still managed to get 70 points while 'Driving' the offense (cause anyone playing with Hall is obviously not as good), while having little to no support from fellow forwards and no help from his defenceman.

Greatly exaggerated.

 

[Replacement*]

Once you get the bios report you can sort the categories in the player list. Click on the S/C above the players names and that will sort them by which way they shoot.

And I agree with the NHL interface. They've made a lot of thing much more difficult to find, and in some cases the information seems to just be gone.

S/C?!

lol, thanks, just found that. Man, what a vague heading. There should be a tutorial onsite since the changes.

 

[Spawn]

S/C?!

lol, thanks, just found that. Man, what a vague heading. There should be a tutorial onsite since the changes.

If you hover your mouse over any of the headings it will tell you what they actually mean. S/C is shoots/catches (for goalies).

 

[Mr Sakich]

You can break down which way a player shoots under the bios part of the stats page (category: more, report: bios):

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...s&aggregate=0&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,30&pos=D

There were 209 d-men who played at least 30 games last year. Of those d-men only 87 of them shoot right. So it's basically a 60/40 split in terms of left shot vs right shot d-men in the league. So it explains why there is a premium on them.

icanada makes a very important point in his post a few above yours. It might gert lost due the post being tldr for many people.

Although the split is 60/40, the reality is that many inferior right handed dmen get to play because coaches believe in having a split of right and left handed guys. Many superior LHD do not get ice time because the coach will play an inferior RHD.

I would guess that the actual split of quality LHD to RHD is closer to 70/30

 

[Panda Bear]

One way to look at it is like this: if 40% of all defencemen shoot right-handed, then 60% of all defencemen shoot left-handed.

This means that left-handed shots are 50% more common than right-handed shots, or that right-handed shots are 33% less common than left-handed shots.

Since we know defencemen perform better on the side of the ice where their hand is dominant, i.e. right side for RHD and left side for LHD, we know that separating all D into these two distinct qualities has merit.

So your premium comes from this gap. LHD are, by and large, worth 66 cents to the RHD dollar.

EDIT: this doesn't even touch on the quality issue of how many RHD receive elevated playing time and opportunities due to their handedness rather than their talent.

 

[Replacement*]

If you hover your mouse over any of the headings it will tell you what they actually mean. S/C is shoots/catches (for goalies).

Yep. Good when hover works. could be a problem on my end with my OS but across different applications hover seems to work when it feels like it and other times doesn't. Thanks for all your help.

 

[I am the Liquor]

Who do you think I am? I have never been banned on here before. Ask any moderator if you don't believe it. Please just stop.

Just busting your balls. Welcome to HF.

 

[I am the Liquor]

Can't talk to people like how?

You mean like you playing dead when he rightly criticizes your comment as being assinine? You f$$$ing set him up but deflect the criticism by bringing up a previous ban. How smug and hypocritical. How was he to know you were "teasing" old friend Jase?

He should have stopped at the first 3 letters in describing your comment.

Lighten up Francis.

 

[dustrock]

icanada makes a very important point in his post a few above yours. It might gert lost due the post being tldr for many people.

Although the split is 60/40, the reality is that many inferior right handed dmen get to play because coaches believe in having a split of right and left handed guys. Many superior LHD do not get ice time because the coach will play an inferior RHD.

I would guess that the actual split of quality LHD to RHD is closer to 70/30

Someone better at Google/less lazy can find the article but there is some evidence that handedness is a real thing and there's a reason why Chiarelli mentioned it.

Had specific shot/possession benefits when playing true LHD and RHD.

 

[McFlyingV]

Someone better at Google/less lazy can find the article but there is some evidence that handedness is a real thing and there's a reason why Chiarelli mentioned it.

Had specific shot/possession benefits when playing true LHD and RHD.

I mean it makes sense in theory, you're receiving passes on your forehand in front of your body in a position where you're ready to move the puck or advance forward, while if you're playing your off-side you either have to receive it on your backhand in front of you or on your forehand behind you. In the attacking zone if you want to walk in from the point on a cross ice pass or move the puck down low quickly you're going to have a much easier time if you're on your proper side. The only time you'd want to be on your off-side is if you're loading up for a one-timer.

In a game where you often need to make split second decisions, that extra amount of time where you're already in a position to make the play could be crucial.

 

[nabob]

Greatly exaggerated.

I would agree, I'm not so sure that the turnovers are exaggerated, but more so magnified because Hall was usually the puck carrier and the guy who'd carry it into the zone with speed and brute force, rather than with skill and finesse like Weight used to or like McDavid does.

The top guys for turnovers are always the best players who handle the puck the most and face the most aggressive compitition.

One stat that isn't getting enough love is the few number of giveaways that Larsson had for the minutes and type of minutes he played.

 

[Replacement*]

I mean it makes sense in theory, you're receiving passes on your forehand in front of your body in a position where you're ready to move the puck or advance forward, while if you're playing your off-side you either have to receive it on your backhand in front of you or on your forehand behind you. In the attacking zone if you want to walk in from the point on a cross crease pass or move the puck down low quickly you're going to have a much easier time if you're on your proper side. The only time you'd want to be on your off-side is if you're loading up for a one-timer.

In a game where you often need to make split second decisions, that extra amount of time where you're already in a position to make the play could be crucial.

Another reason is quite simple. Easier for D to keep puck in if Right plays right and so on.