Taylor Hall For Adam Larsson V | 4,000+ Posts and Counting!

[Bryanbryoil]

Hall couldn't hold Bure's jock. Let's get real Replacement. One was an elite goalscorer, Hall hasn't even hit 30 goals once in his career to date. The only things comparable about them are that they are fast LH shooting wingers.

 

[Up the Irons]

if your primary focus is on determining the winner of the trade, than your statement is true. The reality is that Chia does not care if he wins a trade, he cares about making the team better.

There is no way Chia does this trade if he does not know for sure that Lucic is signing a week later. In CHia's mind, Lucic was part of the overall plan just as the Hall trade was part of the overall plan.

This right here. Knowledge of Lucic, and JP falling in their lap, had everything to do with PCs decision. He was willing to lose a trade.

 

[BleedingOil]

Jesus, now we're comparing Taylor Hall to Pavel Bure?!!?

Bure score 50 or more 5 times. Easier to score sure but Bure lead the league in goals 3 times. Hall has never been a top 30 goal scorer once. Terrible comparison

 

[Young Lions*]

if your primary focus is on determining the winner of the trade, than your statement is true. The reality is that Chia does not care if he wins a trade, he cares about making the team better.

Well, I didn't really bring up winning the trade. You did.

There is no way Chia does this trade if he does not know for sure that Lucic is signing a week later. In CHia's mind, Lucic was part of the overall plan just as the Hall trade was part of the overall plan

Sure, but given he could have signed Lucic and kept Hall, it's hard to view the two transactions as being inextricably linked.

As for making the team better, I'm of the opinion that the team would have been better next year without a single roster move and with actually a full healthy season from key players like Klef, RNH and of course McDavid, so making the team better is a fuzzy criteria for assessing a trade.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

I figured this would be your reply.


While I do tend to value goals more than assists, in cases where the player getting the assists, is clearly driving that offensive production the distinction is less important.

The sum contribution is that Hall causes the same amount of GF production than Bure did. Hall is also a FAR SUPERIOR EV producer than Bure was.

Anyway, any player wishes they had a shot like Bure but a lot of those shots don't beat present day NHL goalies. Just like a lot of the 80's shots don't beat present day goalies. How do I know that? Bure scored tons of goals from well outside the area where todays NHL goals are typically scored. Hall actually has to spend more time in traffic, in the paint, to generate similar production. Of the two, Bure was the more Peripheral player.

Pavel Bure scored 59 goals and 92 points in 2001 and his closest teammate scored 14 goals and 37 points...that's a 55 point difference

if Hall can ever drive offense like that for his team for even 1 season, maybe there's a conversation

but there's no comparison between the two despite the number of excuses in your book....sorry

 

[Panda Bear]

Vancouver
89-90: 64 points
90-91: 65 points
ENTER PAVEL BURE
91-92: 96
92-93: 101
93-94: 85, but they make it to the SCF

Now, I'm aware that one player doesn't make a team. I just wanted to confront the notion that Vancouver was a good team before Bure came over.

More importantly, we're talking Pavel bloody Bure who's 6th all time in the NHL with 0.623 goals per game. We're it not for the Cold War, Bure would have been battling Mats Sundin for first overall in 1989.

I like Taylor Hall. A lot. But he is no Pavel Bure, and that's obvious by watching them carry the puck, deke and shoot.

Pavel ****ing Bure.

 

[Replacement*]

Hall couldn't hold Bure's jock. Let's get real Replacement. One was an elite goalscorer, Hall hasn't even hit 30 goals once in his career to date. The only things comparable about them are that they are fast LH shooting wingers.

Again, why does everybody avoid responding to the rationale that both drive identical offense for their respective teams?

The sum value of these players to their respective clubs is largely the same from a production pov.


Now, if we're going to get brasstacks on this you're saying several times in this thread that Nuge>Hall and with no basis.

Speaking of getting real.

 

[Replacement*]

Pavel Bure scored 59 goals and 92 points in 2001 and his closest teammate scored 14 goals and 37 points...that's a 55 point difference

if Hall can ever drive offense like that for his team for even 1 season, maybe there's a conversation

but there's no comparison between the two despite the number of excuses in your book....sorry

The comparison is production, pure and simple. Hall drives identical production than Bure did.

Yes or no?

Again I'm referencing this due to rampant underestimation of how much production Hall drove here. That is my intent to demonstrate that.

But oddly we have several posters in the thread saying that the peripheral, uninvolved play of RNH>Hall.

A comment that would be laughed out of GDT's for the vast majority of games over the last handful of seasons.

 

[Ol' Jase]

No, Hall doesn't remotely come close to driving "identical" offense that Pavel Bure did.

Sweet jesus, how is this even a discussion point? It's beyond ludicrous.

1997-98: Goals Per Game NHL average: 5.27.

Bure scores 51.

1999-2000: GPG NHL average: 5.51

Bure scores 58.

2000-2001: GPG NHL Average: 5.24

Bure scores 59.

Average GPG for first 5 seasons that Taylor Hall has been in the league.

5.32, 5.31, 5.34, 5.32, 5.31.

 

[guymez]

No, Hall doesn't remotely come close to driving "identical" offense the Pavel Bure.

Sweet jesus, how is this even a discussion point? It's beyond ludicrous.

I just wandered back into this thread only to see a Hall / Bure comparison...and some posters are actually debating this like it has merit?

 

[Ninety7]

No, Hall doesn't remotely come close to driving "identical" offense the Pavel Bure.

Sweet jesus, how is this even a discussion point? It's beyond ludicrous.

I agree. That is a ridiculous comparison. They play nothing alike other than they are fast. Bure doesn't have hands of stone, could lay guys out, and was a phenomenal finisher.

 

[Ol' Jase]

Pavel Bure led the league in EV points in 2000-01, was 4th in 2001-02, was 5th in 1997-98, 13th in 1994-95 and 11th in 1993-94.

In 1999-2000, he had more EV goals than anyone else in the league had goals, for christ sakes.

Talk about a distortion of reality.

The claim the Hall is a FAR SUPERIOR EV player is an outright lie.

 

[BleedingOil]

The comparison is production, pure and simple. Hall drives identical production than Bure did.

Yes or no?

No its really not close actually.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

The comparison is production, pure and simple. Hall drives identical production than Bure did.

Yes or no?

Again I'm referencing this due to rampant underestimation of how much production Hall drove here. That is my intent to demonstrate that.

But oddly we have several posters in the thread saying that the peripheral, uninvolved play of RNH>Hall.

A comment that would be laughed out of GDT's for the vast majority of games over the last handful of seasons.

no...not even close

its such a strange comparison too considering Bure was an elite goal scorer that won multiple trophies while Hall has won zero trophies and never scored 30 goals in 6 seasons

 

[doulos]

You guys are being way too harsh. Bure and Hall both have four letter last names. They are totally the same.

 

[BleedingOil]

Hall hasn't ever cracked top 30 in goal scoring and your comparing him to Bure? Bure on 1 leg later in his career maybe

 

[rrc1967]

n anycase I take that bet that Hall gets more pts than Lucic any day of the year. Lucic is 1 season removed from a pedestrian 44pt season in Boston. I really doubt Lucic gets 60 pts, I really doubt Hall doesn't get 70 or more.

pretty risky bet.

Lucic will play most likely next season with McDavid on a more offense orientated team that has multiple scoring lines.

Hall will play with Henrique, on a team with basically one scoring line that has always been "it's all about defense.." and is certainly not in the same realm of skillset as McDavid.

there's a good chance that Lucic may certainly outpoint hall next season.

 

[LaGu]

Edit
Double

 

[LaGu]

It wasn't just you that had me thinking about era adjusted scoring. Someone else mentioned Yzerman and the old narrative that he became a more complete player at the expense of his point totals, which I've always thought was a bit specious when you consider the fact his best years were in the 80s when scoring was at an all time high while his decline corresponded both with the start of the dead puck era in the 90s as well as his aging out of his most productive years.

You're right, and it goes in line with what I wrote about Bergeron. I might take another look tomorrow for the score adjusting.

 

[Soundwave]

Bure is closer to McDavid honestly (they even play a similar style), Hall is nowhere close to Pavel Bure.

Bure was a phenomenal talent.

Taylor Hall is more akin to a Rick Nash or Zach Parise, even both of those guys are probably better pure goal scorers.

I'd say

Bure > Kovalchuk > Parise > Hall = Nash

 

[Replacement*]

pretty risky bet.

Lucic will play most likely next season with McDavid on a more offense orientated team that has multiple scoring lines.

Hall will play with Henrique, on a team with basically one scoring line that has always been "it's all about defense.." and is certainly not in the same realm of skillset as McDavid.

there's a good chance that Lucic may certainly outpoint hall next season.

We're about to find out if sophomore jinx is real and if the Oilers haven't just setup McDavid by having it be primarily a one line team. If the vision is Mcdavid with Lucic and Eberle who drives offense on the other lines. RNH? lmao.

This team won't be more "offensively oriented" by subtracting its top producer.

Hall will get more pts than Lucic barring injury. I have zero doubt about that.

Again Lucic had 55pts in LA (close to his peak) playing with allstars like Kopitar and Carter. Do people think those guys are slouches? Those guys get the biscuit to scoring areas more than anybody on this team.

 

[Soundwave]

pretty risky bet.

Lucic will play most likely next season with McDavid on a more offense orientated team that has multiple scoring lines.

Hall will play with Henrique, on a team with basically one scoring line that has always been "it's all about defense.." and is certainly not in the same realm of skillset as McDavid.

there's a good chance that Lucic may certainly outpoint hall next season.

Well I wouldn't go that far. I'm sure Hall will be super motivated next year and it wouldn't surprise me if he has a great season.

 

[Replacement*]

Well I wouldn't go that far. I'm sure Hall will be super motivated next year and it wouldn't surprise me if he has a great season.

Of course, and he drives offense, clearly, and had a near rookie Draisaitl as his Center.

Halls production has survived linemate pairings more than anybody on this club.

Plus seriously, do people really think that in NJ they're going to be saying "Hall don't rush the puck, Hall, don't be Hall" lol

One of the best defensive squads of alltime had a freelance Guy Lafleur rushing the puck. Not that I'm comparing the two, just saying.

Defensive squads allow their primary producers to go an do what they do. Hall will only be asked to cover back and be in position whenever possible, which halls speed and skating allows.

 

[CupofOil]

The comparison is production, pure and simple. Hall drives identical production than Bure did.

Yes or no?

Again I'm referencing this due to rampant underestimation of how much production Hall drove here. That is my intent to demonstrate that.

But oddly we have several posters in the thread saying that the peripheral, uninvolved play of RNH>Hall.

A comment that would be laughed out of GDT's for the vast majority of games over the last handful of seasons.

Bure is one of the best all time goal scorers, Hall hasn't even scored 30 once in his career. How do you even quantify "driving production" and come up with the idea that Hall is even remotely in the same universe as Bure?

You're talking about a guy with an elite shot, one of the best ever at handling the puck at top speed (comparable to McDavid in that respect) and some of the filthiest hands ever to grace the league compared to a guy with an average shot, average hands and an average puckhandler. Hall's gift is that he drives possession and his incredible speed puts defenders on their heels but as far as pure offensive skill is concerned, Hall is pretty average in a lot of respects compared to other highly regarded skilled forwards. McDavid and Bure is a better comparison.

Also, what's with the constant attacks on RNH regardless of what thread it is?

 

[LaGu]

Sorry, and I appreciate the effort, but why include multiple players in that list who are still playng, still young, and could still best their career peak production? I know you noted that, but why include it?

This skews the results making it look more like tweeners getting the highest points.

Nor does this reflect the reality that Hall, as recently as last season was 4th in scoring, spend a large segment of the season around PPG, and only struggled to produce in last 30games at which point the season, and peak motivation, were gone, on a player that had seen a lot of years where the Oilers were not put into a position to be competitive.

Because I took the top scorers (more or less) over the last 5-20 years. I can remove some from the equation but I am not sure it is worth the time since it is a non-conclusive stat to say the least. And I am not convinced it will change that much, other factors seen to be more important such as draft position and age at 1st year (normally related to draft position as well).

Just a note, I wasn't the one arguing one way or another here, I just saw a statement and found it interesting enough to look into it since I honestly did not know. The problems of this (and in my honest opinion all stats) is that it always, always, needs context.