Taxes on UFAs signing in Montreal.

[Tighthead]

The country club scenario was put forward by a tax lawyer who was interviewed about this very issue of NHL players and the tax implications. It was a few years ago but I doubt that US tax laws have been tightened up since then. More than likely they're even more lax now.

I'm quite sure that there are country clubs out there who charge into the six figures. My rich uncle the banking executive joined a country club in West Vancouver about 25 years ago and at that time associate memberships (not even full memberships, mind you, just associate memberships which only entitled you to limited benefits) were selling for close to $50,000 so full memberships were likely close to six figures even back then.

This is why if you see a black guy golfing at a country club, he's probably Tiger Woods, Denzel Washington or an NBA player. In the most exclusive clubs in the US, they have one or two token minority members in order to keep the ACLU off their case but other than that the only non-white faces you'll see there will be waiters, gardeners or caddies. And some clubs still discourage women from being members. As the old saying goes, the word "golf" stands for "Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden".

Those are entry costs. You specifically referred to annual fees. Which clubs are in line with your initial statement?

As for write offs, this source suggests it’s not an option:

Free Per Diem Calculator - Pilot Per Diem - Flight Attendant Per Diem - Airline Per Diem

Also

8 Types of Club Dues That Are Tax Deductible

I assume you disagree with it?i

Also would appreciate a cite on when the ACLU has involved itself in the membership of a private club. Doesn’t seem like their domain.

 

[Laurentide]

There have often been protests by groups like the ACLU whenever big USGA events have been held at clubs which are exclusionary. Augusta National is always a target which is why they eventually had to allow women to join. But that was only in 2012 and the first female they let in was Condi Rice.

Controversy Over Women at Augusta Golf Course Leads to ACLU Federal Lawsuit on Protest Rights

As for the fees, I may have conflated initiation fees, which frequently run into six figures (Trump National charges nearly $200K and is far from the most expensive) and yearly dues, which can run into the mid-to-high five figures. Once you add your bar tab to the dues, you're probably at or close to six figures if you're using the place at all.

As for the tax write off, I'm going purely by what I heard that tax lawyer say. I'm sure that membership fees wouldn't be as high as they are unless there was a way to offset the cost through a tax loophole of some sort. Millionaire pro athletes employ people to find these loopholes. It's the same reason why seats in the club section at your local NHL arena are so ridiculously high. Because people aren't spending their own money. The tickets are bought at the corporate level and are written off as a business cost.

 

[Tighthead]

There have often been protests by groups like the ACLU whenever big USGA events have been held at clubs which are exclusionary. Augusta National is always a target which is why they eventually had to allow women to join. But that was only in 2012 and the first female they let in was Condi Rice.

Controversy Over Women at Augusta Golf Course Leads to ACLU Federal Lawsuit on Protest Rights

As for the fees, I may have conflated initiation fees, which frequently run into six figures (Trump National charges nearly $200K and is far from the most expensive) and yearly dues, which can run into the mid-to-high five figures. Once you add your bar tab to the dues, you're probably at or close to six figures if you're using the place at all.

As for the tax write off, I'm going purely by what I heard that tax lawyer say. I'm sure that membership fees wouldn't be as high as they are unless there was a way to offset the cost through a tax loophole of some sort. Millionaire pro athletes employ people to find these loopholes. It's the same reason why seats in the club section at your local NHL arena are so ridiculously high. Because people aren't spending their own money. The tickets are bought at the corporate level and are written off as a business cost.

The ACLU wasn’t involved on membership. Per your cite it was about where the City of Augusta would allow the protests. Do you disagree? Why did you provide that as an example?

Please provide an example where the ACLU has been involved with the membership decisions of a private golf course. You have twice stated it happens regularly. I can’t find a single instance.

Can you find one source other than what you heard as to membership fees being written off? I provided two sources that say it isn’t permitted. There has to be more to what you are relying on other than “rich people find wrote offs.”

 

[Laurentide]

The ACLU wasn’t involved on membership. Per your cite it was about where the City of Augusta would allow the protests. Do you disagree? Why did you provide that as an example?

Please provide an example where the ACLU has been involved with the membership decisions of a private golf course. You have twice stated it happens regularly. I can’t find a single instance.

Can you find one source other than what you heard as to membership fees being written off? I provided two sources that say it isn’t permitted. There has to be more to what you are relying on other than “rich people find wrote offs.”

The ACLU represented a woman who was denied membership to a club in LA that she received as part of her divorce settlement:

Court Curbs Clubs' Ability to Discriminate

But this sort of thing is rare. The ACLU might protest against such discrimination but it knows that legally it can't do much because the private nature of the clubs allows them to circumvent existing anti-discrimination laws when admitting members. Their purpose is to bring these discriminatory practices to light so that the public at large will put pressure on them to change their ways. But again I never said that the ACLU was "regularly involved" in anything. Protesting and advocating against inequality and discrimination is what they do and since many country clubs are bastions of discrimination they will naturally come into conflict with them. Those clubs which want to stay out of the glare of the spotlight admit "tokens" to the ranks of their members in order to head off these protests.

And no I have no sources regarding the tax exemptions other than what I heard the lawyer say. But I am sure that it would surprise no one if it was revealed that rich people get away with paying less than their fair share of taxes by finding loopholes they can exploit. Rich people buy the politicians who write in these loopholes for them.

 

[JianYang]

It's a slippery slope. If you eqaulize the tax effect, which I presume is very complicated in itself, where do we draw the line?

Do nothern climates get extra cap space for that weakness in attracting free agents too? What about equalizing the cost of living?

It's not really a road to travel. The best bargaining chip for any team is to build a consistently competitive team, which getting increasingly harder to do, but it's the best equalizer that an organization can deploy.

 

[Scintillating10]

Looking at the taxes....Montreal is the worst city to play for in the NHL. Canada in generally is bad to play for, but Montreal is the worst in particular. Take a star player like Tavares or Doughty who will sign for around 11 million annually today. If they signed to play for Montreal, they would take home 5.15 million of the 11 million, or lose 53.1% of their salary. That is only counting income taxes, not counting taxes at the store or property tax. I didn't know how to calculate those taxes in.

Compare it to say if Tavares signs in rumoured Tampa or Dallas? Tavares would take home 6.68 million, or lose 39.1% of their salary compared to 53.1% in Montreal. Over the course of 7 years, Tavares would lose 10.5 million more in taxes if he signs in Montrel instead of Tampa. It's not too hard to understand why Montreal hasn't come close to a Cup in over 25 years, or since free agency has become more common place in the NHL. Also, tells you why Montreal should concentrate on the draft and player development. As salaries increase so is the tax burden. Making free agency less and less a source for Canadian clubs and the Habs are hardest hit.

If Tavares re-signs to stay on Long Island? Playing for the Islanders, Tavares would bring home 5.73 million per year, or lose 47.8% of his salary to taxes. This is something the NHL needs to address! Montreal and a few other cities are hard hit when it comes to taxes.

If Tavares played in Alberta, He would bring home 5.74 million of his 11 million salary. Nearly $600,000 a year difference between Montreal and playing in Calgary or Edmonton in take home pay. If he played in Montreal, over 7 years contract, he would lose 4.2 million more in taxes.

It is not just the star free agents but the average one as well. Take say a Nash or a Jay Beagle for example, if they signed in Montreal? Canadiens are looking for depth at center, either would be a good fit. If we signed one for 3 million a year? Nash would bring home 1.42 million. Or lose 52% of his salary. If he stays in Boston he would bring home 1.7 million in salary. A difference of nearly $300,000 each year for which he signed for. If he signed for 3 or 4 years, it means a total difference of 1 million dollars in take home pay. Quite a difference for a depth player.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Laurent Duvernay Tardif's agent was saying taxes in Montreal are a non-issue because :
1) You can have a 2nd home elsewhere say in Florida
2) While salary is 53,1%, it's only 15% for signing bonuses so you just make a contract centered around bonuses and it's possibly even better than elsewhere.

I will try to find an actual artcile but I heard this on the radio.

If you have access to Athletic :


Comment le Canadien peut vaincre le mythe des impôts...

- L'agent de Laurent Duvernay-Tardif, confirme que John Tavares...
- Ne serait pas désavantagé, en signant à Montréal...
''C’est souvent une erreur dans la LNH lorsqu’on regarde le taux d’imposition à Montréal et Toronto, qui sont parmi les deux plus élevés dans le circuit. Il y a des avantages aussi du côté fiscal, lorsqu’on structure des contrats et ça fait en sorte que le taux d’imposition est possiblement moins élevé que partout ailleurs. Je pense notamment aux bonis de signature, qui selon les règles fiscales, sont imposés à 15%. Pour un joueur comme Tavares, si on estime que sa résidence principale est à New York, on est capable de structurer un contrat où la majorité de son salaire est réclamé à la signature. Son impact fiscal est amoindri.''

Hockey30 | L'agent de Laurent Duvernay-Tardif, confirme que John Tavares...

This basically says that if you structure deals around bonuses and you have a 2nd home in the states, you are only getting hit with 15% income taxes on that.

 

[sandviper]

Just to add, while Montreal can be tough for taxes, other cities such as New York are as well. Montreal is worse, but we’re not talking 30% difference or anything like that.

Phillip is correct as well. There are ways to lesson that blow.

Now, couple the taxes with the following:

1. Team has not had much playoff success in general for many years.

2. Media scrutiny all the time, in good times and bad.

3. Very tough environment with fans in bad times.

4. And the most important thing IMO should the potential UFA have a young family... language. I am not saying the language is an issue for all players. I just think those with school age or especially high school kids without any second or third language education may be a factor when choosing potential cities.

 

[Mandala]

Add to that low Canadian dollar value which adds 25% value to anything bought in Canada.

Finally, the cost of living is less for health, education even to buy an amazing house.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I don't think taxes is one of the main reasons players avoid the habs. It's on the list, but near the bottom imo.

I think the following rank much higher

1. Media Frenzy, no privacy (if I were a star, I would welcome this, but it's not for everyone)
2. Lack of direction from management
3. Not competitve
4. Too conservative, coaches that have a tendency to want to stifle offense and creativity. (If you were a star would you want to have your skill coached out of you?)
5. Generally, it's a circus, pressure to learn french etc.
6. The winning culture of 40-50 years ago can only take us so far, it means nothing for the new generation.

 

[Mandala]

Pressure to learn french... what a joke. A simple Bonjour, Merci and a few words and fans appreciate the effort. That is the same you would do if you visited Germany, Sweden or Latin America.

 

[Milhouse40]

Taxes are an Habs excuses.

Both teams in NY are paying just as much taxes.
Toronto also......and the cost of life is twice down there than it is here.

There's signing bonus, many european can send money home in a retirement plan and pay only the taxes in their country......even i don't the % of taxes i should be paying cause i use a fisalist to do my tax return and he use every loophole possible, As other pointed out, add the cost of living. A 450 000$ condo will cost 1.3M in New York. A 1.5M home will cost twice as much down in Florida.

Said it multiple times: How dumb does it sound for a hockey player who doesn't gives a shit about anything else than winning to see an organisation that is not looking to be the best possible? To be the best, you have to hire the best......not the only one who speak french. That's the biggest reason but no one will say it out load.

 

[BLONG7]

Winning.....................cures all!!

Remove our clown GM and we can start anew again...

Winning is the biggest thing here guys, they can all have their money, they want to WIN.

 

[scrubadam]

Laurent Duvernay Tardif's agent was saying taxes in Montreal are a non-issue because :
1) You can have a 2nd home elsewhere say in Florida
2) While salary is 53,1%, it's only 15% for signing bonuses so you just make a contract centered around bonuses and it's possibly even better than elsewhere.

I will try to find an actual artcile but I heard this on the radio.

If you have access to Athletic :


Comment le Canadien peut vaincre le mythe des impôts...

- L'agent de Laurent Duvernay-Tardif, confirme que John Tavares...
- Ne serait pas désavantagé, en signant à Montréal...
''C’est souvent une erreur dans la LNH lorsqu’on regarde le taux d’imposition à Montréal et Toronto, qui sont parmi les deux plus élevés dans le circuit. Il y a des avantages aussi du côté fiscal, lorsqu’on structure des contrats et ça fait en sorte que le taux d’imposition est possiblement moins élevé que partout ailleurs. Je pense notamment aux bonis de signature, qui selon les règles fiscales, sont imposés à 15%. Pour un joueur comme Tavares, si on estime que sa résidence principale est à New York, on est capable de structurer un contrat où la majorité de son salaire est réclamé à la signature. Son impact fiscal est amoindri.''

Hockey30 | L'agent de Laurent Duvernay-Tardif, confirme que John Tavares...

This basically says that if you structure deals around bonuses and you have a 2nd home in the states, you are only getting hit with 15% income taxes on that.

On 690 they said something different.

Basically you are paying taxes based on residency. So if you are a canadian resident than you have to pay taxes in canada. The kicker is if you stop being a canadian resident then you have to pay taxes on all your assets. So if you are JT and you have 10 million in securities you have to sell them all and pay taxes when you change your residency from canadian to american.

And you cant just say you live in florida. If they see all your activity is taking place in canada you will be considered a canadian resident.

Also mentioned the differnece between olaying in place like cali and dallas or tampa bay and it would be 3 million dollars of take home pay on a contract for someone like JT.

Taxes do play a role. Its not only montreal as you have other teams competing against usa teama with no state income taxes. But we cant deny that montreal is one of the higher taxed cities. Its not the only factor but if you look at a guy like radu by going to dallas he was taking home a good chunk more money ny going to a no state tax state in dallas.

 

[ZUKI]

Pressure to learn french... what a joke. A simple Bonjour, Merci and a few words and fans appreciate the effort. That is the same you would do if you visited Germany, Sweden or Latin America.

Agree with you . Anyway , it shouldn't be considered as a pressure but as an opportunity . If i go 2 weeks in Spain , i will take the time to learn few words and will get a dictionary with me .

Why anglophone people are so reluctant to learn another language ?

 

[McGuires Corndog]

Players also have to want to play here .

Ironically, we traded the poster boy of a super star who loved playing here.

2 years later, still don’t make sense.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Pressure to learn french... what a joke. A simple Bonjour, Merci and a few words and fans appreciate the effort. That is the same you would do if you visited Germany, Sweden or Latin America.

You might see it as an opportunity, many don't. If the player can play hockey, nothing else should matter.

 

[Brainiac]

I remember reading somewhere that taxes can also be calculated depending on where the actual work is done. So it evens out a lot of the differences, because only half your pay is taxed at home.

 

[JSR 56]

Taxes isn’t a major reason, just another excuse

 

[Bacchus1]

Add to that low Canadian dollar value which adds 25% value to anything bought in Canada.

Finally, the cost of living is less for health, education even to buy an amazing house.

I think all NHL contracts are in US$.

 

[googlymoogly]

The good players can make more in the Montreal market in endorsements. A lot of hockey towns the players are not even known off the ice. In Montreal you can get paid fr doing commercials etc.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Taxes are an excuse propagated by management apologists, and above all else, it is propagated by many in the Montreal sports media as a scapegoat to deflect from their own culpability in driving players away from Montreal.

While Canadiens ownership is obviously and unequivocally looking out for its own best interests, most of the media types aren't acting any different.

In the end, it is US, the fans, who pay the big bucks for a mediocre product created by ownership and stiffled by the media.

To ownership and the media types, yeah the ones who do come here and read our crap and steal some of our ideas, I say this:

Go **** yourselves

Hard

And sideways

You could give parasites lessons on being infectuous waste.

 

[Bryson]

Taxes are an excuse propagated by management apologists, and above all else, it is propagated by many in the Montreal sports media as a scapegoat to deflect from their own culpability in driving players away from Montreal.

While Canadiens ownership is obviously and unequivocally looking out for its own best interests, most of the media types aren't acting any different.

In the end, it is US, the fans, who pay the big bucks for a mediocre product created by ownership and stiffled by the media.

To ownership and the media types, yeah the ones who do come here and read our crap and steal some of our ideas, I say this:

Go **** yourselves

Hard

And sideways

You could give parasites lessons on being infectuous waste.

I was honestly and truly shocked to learn that other teams around the NHL pay just as much taxes if not more than Montreal. It was made out to be such a big deal and matter of fact by the media and scapegoaters when in reality it only serves to deflect from the real reason why players don't want to sign here. Amazing what a little bit of education can do.

 

[LaP]

Taxes are high in NY and they don't have trouble signing players. There's barely any difference between NY and Mtl. Stop with the excuses.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

On 690 they said something different.

Basically you are paying taxes based on residency. So if you are a canadian resident than you have to pay taxes in canada. The kicker is if you stop being a canadian resident then you have to pay taxes on all your assets. So if you are JT and you have 10 million in securities you have to sell them all and pay taxes when you change your residency from canadian to american.

And you cant just say you live in florida. If they see all your activity is taking place in canada you will be considered a canadian resident.

Also mentioned the differnece between olaying in place like cali and dallas or tampa bay and it would be 3 million dollars of take home pay on a contract for someone like JT.

Taxes do play a role. Its not only montreal as you have other teams competing against usa teama with no state income taxes. But we cant deny that montreal is one of the higher taxed cities. Its not the only factor but if you look at a guy like radu by going to dallas he was taking home a good chunk more money ny going to a no state tax state in dallas.

There are about 4 or 5 teams without state taxes, but federal is close to a whopping 40% in the states. Cali teams have taxes close to Mtl as many other teams do. The 15 worst taxed cities in the NHL vary close to 5% which is very narrow compared to pre-lockout and pre-2008 differences.

New York's taxes are as high as Montreal, yet they've never had any troubles signing bit time UFAs.