OT: Sutherland Hotel burns to the ground.

[TheDeuce]

I don't know what the solution is but at least we know what it isn't:

 

[ps241]

This is not a just a WINNIPEG thing in case people here are wondering.

A good friend of mine sits on an urban district improvement council in our city and he attends North American conventions on strategies to elevate urban areas. Almost every city big and small in North is dealing with this crisis and yea its trajectory is similar everywhere. If you think it’s because of our demographics then think again. It’s ravaging inner cities with completely different demographic mixes than ours.

Enemies:

Addiction
Mental health crisis
Opioid meth crack cheaper more lethal
Housing insecurity

The question I ask myself is am I a spectator watching, complaining, and booing or am I a player in the game trying to help.

 

[Jets4Life]

This is not a just a WINNIPEG thing in case people here are wondering.

A good friend of mine sits on an urban district improvement council in our city and he attends North American conventions on strategies to elevate urban areas. Almost every city big and small in North is dealing with this crisis and yea its trajectory is similar everywhere. If you think it’s because of our demographics then think again. It’s ravaging inner cities with completely different demographic mixes than ours.

Enemies:

Addiction
Mental health crisis
Opioid meth crack cheaper more lethal
Housing insecurity

The question I ask myself is am I a spectator watching, complaining, and booing or am I a player in the game trying to help.

I can tell you that the homeless problem is far worse in cities like Edmonton, Calgary, and Vancouver. Edmonton, in particular is downright scary now, if one were a few blocks east of where the Oilers play.. With the provincial Government they have right now, I have no doubt the problem is going to get much worse.

 

[Al Camino]

I work downtown Winnipeg for the past 28 years. That area has become significantly (to my old eyes) worse, especially since Covid.

I appreciate your optimism, and I too wish to see that lengthy stretch be revitalized - but realistically, really don't at all see it happening. And hey, a "safe" injection site is opening right in that area too quite soon. Ask BC how that has worked out for the challenged section of the population who use locations like that and the surrounding dis-advantaged population residing there.....


This is accurate.

I am sure the insurance companies holding the coverage on these structures will be doing some extra digging to find the cause of loss.

I thought I read there was no coverage on the hotel. But I could be very wrong. Either way I hope people will quit burning buildings down.

 

[LucianoBorsato]

One of my friends lived not too far from it in the early 2010s. We'd sometimes get beer from the vendor, that was always a risky venture after dark

 

[Jets4Life]

Same here, and I agree. Despite the monumental effort put into improving the area, it has become progressively worse and worse. 30 years ago downtown was a legitimate shopping destination on par with any of the malls in the city. Now the marquee shopping destinations, such as they are, are MEC, Giant Tiger and Dollarama.

This is not true. I was a teenager in the mid 1990s, and Downtown was a dead zone after 6 PM. In fact, Portage Place was a failure from day 1. The food court, in particular was always depressing, becoming a hangout for homeless people and gang members even 30 years ago. The two other malls, Eaton Place and Winnipeg Square were also dead zones after 6 PM.



You may be thinking of the 70s. By the 80s, it was clear that malls like St.Vital and Polo Park were thriving, while the Downtown Bay and Eatons were losing money, and stores were closing down on a regular basis. In the 90s, all the movie theatres were losing money, and eventually would close. IMAX never drew well. The last reason to visit Portage Place for me, was McNally Robinson book store, which also moved in the late 2000s.

 

[jetsmooseice]

This is not true. I was a teenager in the mid 1990s, and Downtown was a dead zone after 6 PM. In fact, Portage Place was a failure from day 1. The food court, in particular was always depressing, becoming a hangout for homeless people and gang members even 30 years ago. The two other malls, Eaton Place and Winnipeg Square were also dead zones after 6 PM.

Maybe Portage Place wasn't living up to original expectations, but the point was that downtown Winnipeg was still a full-on retail destination. You had the two largest stores in the province, Eaton's and The Bay at either end, and Portage Place in between back when it was still full of retailers. You could buy pretty well anything you needed downtown, much like at Polo Park or any other shopping mall.

That really only changed once Eaton's closed for good in 1999. Then at that point the pace of store closures and downgrades (e.g. chain clothing store to mom and pop cell cell phone accessory shop) accelerated until it became what it is now.

 

[Jets4Life]

Maybe Portage Place wasn't living up to original expectations, but the point was that downtown Winnipeg was still a full-on retail destination. You had the two largest stores in the province, Eaton's and The Bay at either end, and Portage Place in between back when it was still full of retailers. You could buy pretty well anything you needed downtown, much like at Polo Park or any other shopping mall.

There was a mass exodus of people shopping in Downtown Winnipeg decades ago, from what I hear, the late 70s/early 80s. I used to go downtown very often in the 90s, and it was always dead. In fact, the whole concept of Portage Place, was to "revitalize" downtown, and bring it back to life. In retrospect, it never made sense, and was destined to fail. Downtown already had two malls that were performing relatively poorly, why build a third one?

Portage Place, as seen in the CBC video 9 months from it's opening in September 1987, was a white elephant. What is truly ironic, is there were serious considerations to build a new arena for the Jets on the land Portage Place is on. Eaton's and The Bay were not doing well, to the point that both stores cut their hours, and closed early, from 9 to 6 on most weekdays.

That really only changed once Eaton's closed for good in 1999. Then at that point the pace of store closures and downgrades (e.g. chain clothing store to mom and pop cell cell phone accessory shop) accelerated until it became what it is now.

Again, this is not true. The whole reason Eaton's closed downtown, is it had been losing money for nearly two decades. The Downtown Eaton's was pretty much the most well known Eaton's in Canada, yet it was on life support for most of the 90s. The Bay was not fairing any better, and it was really a question of when it would shut down. I'm just surprised that it stayed open for as long as it did. This would be obvious to anyone who spend considerable amount of time at both suburban and downtown malls.

There was no comparison. Unlike downtown, places like St. Vital mall and Polo Park were always jam packed from the 80s onward. If anything, the new arena opened in 2004, and the return of the Jets was a catalyst for development in the area.

 

[jetsmooseice]

There was a mass exodus of people shopping in Downtown Winnipeg decades ago, from what I hear, the late 70s/early 80s. I used to go downtown very often in the 90s, and it was always dead. In fact, the whole concept of Portage Place, was to "revitalize" downtown, and bring it back to life. In retrospect, it never made sense, and was destined to fail. Downtown already had two malls that were performing relatively poorly, why build a third one?

Portage Place, as seen in the CBC video 9 months from it's opening in September 1987, was a white elephant. What is truly ironic, is there were serious considerations to build a new arena for the Jets on the land Portage Place is on. Eaton's and The Bay were not doing well, to the point that both stores cut their hours, and closed early, from 9 to 6 on most weekdays.


Again, this is not true. The whole reason Eaton's closed downtown, is it had been losing money for nearly two decades. The Bay was not fairing any better, and it was really a question of when it would shut down. I'm just surprised that it stayed open for as long as it did. This would be obvious to anyone who spend considerable amount of time at both suburban and downtown malls.

There was no comparison. Unlike downtown, places like St. Vital mall and Polo Park were always jam packed from the 80s onward.

I think you and I are talking about two different things. You are looking at it from the corporate standpoint... yes, there's no question downtown was on a downward trajectory through the 80s and 90s, especially relative to suburban malls and big box stores.

However, I am looking at it from a consumer standpoint. I mean, you can't tell me that there weren't a ton of shopping, dining and entertainment options downtown in the 90s because I was there, I lived it. Regardless of whether the shopkeeper was happy with traffic volumes after 6 pm was immaterial to me, the point is that the stores were there and I shopped at them. I guess the problem is that there weren't enough people like me who were doing that, and now we've wound up where we are today.

 

[Jets4Life]

I think you and I are talking about two different things. You are looking at it from the corporate standpoint... yes, there's no question downtown was on a downward trajectory through the 80s and 90s, especially relative to suburban malls and big box stores.

However, I am looking at it from a consumer standpoint. I mean, you can't tell me that there weren't a ton of shopping, dining and entertainment options downtown in the 90s because I was there, I lived it. Regardless of whether the shopkeeper was happy with traffic volumes after 6 pm was immaterial to me, the point is that the stores were there and I shopped at them. I guess the problem is that there weren't enough people like me who were doing that, and now we've wound up where we are today.

I lived it too, and from a consumer perspective, it was far busier at the suburban shopping centres. As an added bones, one did not have to pay for parking, and parking was readily accessible. This is why few people went to downtown to shop, once suburban malls sprung up in the 70s and 80s.

 

[buggs]

I lived it too, and from a consumer perspective, it was far busier at the suburban shopping centres. As an added bones, one did not have to pay for parking, and parking was readily accessible. This is why few people went to downtown to shop, once suburban malls sprung up in the 70s and 80s.

Polo Park was around a long time and a real dud while downtown was thriving. St. Vital Centre opened circa 1979 when then Bishop Grandin Blvd opened up. (Side note: from that day through now, you do not have a stop sign entering the mall, only when leaving). Garden City and Unicity were around and as I recall it, Kildonan opened up later. But SVC was the killing blow for downtown. It changed everything with lots of stores in one place, free parking and no need to go downtown. Once Polo Park saw how well SVC was doing, they upped their game considerably.

Going back to when Eaton's and the Bay were thriving, even at that point North Portage was somewhat shady. As kids (10-14 y/o) we'd go downtown regularly. My best friend was an Eaton's guy, I was a Bay guy because my mom worked there doing their books sporadically while I was a kid. It was a benefit to go to the Paddle Wheel and get the bill 'stamped' so my mom got some pittance of cash back. But our parents always warned us to not go to the north side of Portage because it was 'shady'. Naturally as kids we'd go to the arcades on the north side and there were some various great record stores up there. We'd always hit up the Malt Stop in the basement of the Bay for a malt before boarding the bus for the ride home.

From my perspective downtown has been in decline for maybe 45 years or so. I have to give True North a lot of credit for the amount of investment there. I don't know that it will be a winning strategy but they've certainly poured money into it. Covid sidetracked them and the dynamic changed further so we'll see how it works out. I do get a chuckle out of thinking about the articles and opinions that suggested the presence of the Jets would result in more crime downtown. Those are far and away the safest days/evenings to be downtown. FWIW I work downtown five days a week, have done so since 2011.