Superstars Who Have Won Extra Awards/Accolades by Proxy

[MarkusNaslund19]

Confusing title, I know.

So when I'm bored or anxious I often go onto Sporcle and put my hockey trivia knowledge to use and one recent quiz I was working on reminded me that in 84-85 not only did Mario Lemieux make the all-rookie team, but so did his winger Warren Young.

Now, the rest of Young's career suggests that he doesn't sniff that accolade without Lemieux feeding it to him pass by pass.

So it got me thinking, for some of the generational players. What are some accolades that they clearly earned but with another player's name on the trophy/accolade?

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[vadim sharifijanov]

i know a poster who would give claude julien two vezinas…

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Thornton gets Cheechoo's Rocket

 

[Primary Assist]

Bobrovsky gets Tortorella's second Jack Adams

 

[Plural]

Maybe bit too harsh, but Kunitz owes Sid his Team Canada visit?

 

[MadLuke]

Thornton gets Cheechoo's Rocket

That some of the first one you think, would Cheechoo won that year, how much of Kurri is from Gretzky.

Kunitz gold medal is a little bit from Crosby. (edit: already mentionned)

A little bit of the most goal ever record was an Orr record by proxy, maybe all those 200 pts season have a little bit of a Coffey by proxy.

 

[Plural]

@MadLuke for Kurri and Gretzky symbiosis, I don't know how "fair" it is to put this asterix on Kurri's "retro" rocket. I mean, he absolutely won't score those numbers without Gretzky, but maybe two decades a go I remember seeing a great quote (can't remember by who). But it went something along like this: Kurri's ability to allow Gretzky cheat on center's defensive responsibilities is the most underrated offensive feat of the 80's".


As another suggestion for the thread, how about Lehtinen owes a bit of his Selke's to Modano?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

As another suggestion for the thread, how about Lehtinen owes a bit of his Selke's to Modano?

i was going to suggest the opposite: modano owes the year he was a selke finalist to lehtinen

 

[dr robbie]

Oates should probably get a good chunk of Hull's 3 retro rockets with the early 90s Blues.

 

[Mike C]

Butch Goring got Mike Bossy's Conn Smythe

 

[Plural]

Oates should probably get a good chunk of Hull's 3 retro rockets with the early 90s Blues.

Or, replace Oates with "average 1C" and how many rockets Hull loses?

 

[VanIslander]

Or, replace Oates with "average 1C" and how many rockets Hull loses?

All of them.

The Oates Effect is well documented.

 

[Plural]

All of them.

The Oates Effect is well documented.

Ok, never really looked in to it. At face value I would have thought that one of the top-3 largest margins for "Rocket" would hold no matter who is feeding you.

I'm not saying the documented effect is not real, I just haven't seen it and find it hard to believe.

 

[VanIslander]

The eye test is indeed important.

Longtime Caps fans know the difference between Pivonka to Bondra from Backstrom to Ovechkin.

 

[Plural]

The eye test is indeed important.

Longtime Caps fans know the difference between Pivonka to Bondra from Backstrom to Ovechkin.

Eye test of course. I agree. Can you point me to documents/etc. you mentioned? Would love to look bit more in to it.

I always thought that Brett Hull was good enough of a scorer to lead the league in goals. Oates just widened his margins.

 

[Albatros]

Hull still scored 16 goals in 18 games while Oates was out.

 

[The Panther]

maybe all those 200 pts season have a little bit of a Coffey by proxy.

A little bit, probably, but not nearly as much as is generally thought. Looking at Gretzky / Coffey in 1986-87 and then Gretzky in 1987-88:
___________________________________

In December 1986, Coffey first missed 10 games. In those games, Gretzky scored 14 goals and 29 points. Then, in January-February 1987, Coffey missed another 10 games. In those game, Gretzky scored 7 goals and 28 points. (On April 4th -- the 80th and final game of the season -- both Gretzky and Coffey skipped the game to rest for the playoffs.) In the playoffs, Coffey missed the final four games of the Los Angeles series. In those 4 games, Gretzky scored 2 goals and 14 points.

Overall, Gretzky played (incl. playoffs) 100 games in 1986-87: 76 with Coffey, and 24 without Coffey. Here's the breakdown:

1986-87 Gretzky with Coffey:
146 points in 76 games = 1.92 PPG (154 points per 80 games)
1986-87 Gretzky without Coffey:
71 points in 24 games = 2.96 PPG (237 points per 80 games)

Sure, maybe a favorable schedule and the four playoff games being vs. Los Angeles makes this distinction look greater than it really is, but clearly Gretzky wasn't struggling to score without Coffey. In fact, he was scoring way, way more without Coffey.

Then, in 1987-88 -- entirely without Coffey -- Gretzky scored 192 points in 83 games (though, really, it was more like 81 or 82 games). This, with the Oilers now scoring 63 fewer total goals in the RS than they'd scored in the previous full season with Coffey.

 

[JackSlater]

Thornton gets Cheechoo's Rocket

That is probably the classic answer.

I sort of wonder about some of Chicago's awards in the 1960s. Basically everyone then and now would acknowledge Hull as the team's best player. Does Mikita win that many Art Rosses (or Harts) facing the other team's best if Hull was not there? Surely he wins some. Does Pilote win each Norris without Hull (and Mikita) leading the charge offensively? Or maybe Chicago's style of play and lack of depth helped when it came to regular season awards.

 

[Crosby2010]

It wasn't an award, but McDavid owns those 54 goals of Hyman's from last year. And while people have finally sobered up, there was a time when Hyman was considered a lock on the Olympic team. McDavid may has well have had his name stamped on that if it happened.

Blair MacDonald had 46 goals as Gretzky's linemate in his rookie season and I don't know if he cashed in on that financially but for the short time he played hockey afterwards I hope he had Gretzky on his Christmas card list.

 

[MadLuke]

Ok, never really looked in to it. At face value I would have thought that one of the top-3 largest margins for "Rocket" would hold no matter who is feeding you.

Brett Hull = 9th in goals in 1992-93

I was always a little surprised at Brett Hull's drop-off in goal production for 1992-93. He was tied for 9th in goals (with Andreychuk, but Hull played fewer games). Remember, he was 1st in 1990, 1991, and 1992. Hull's 1993 total was 54 goals (in 80 games played of an 84-game season). Still...

forums.hfboards.com

He could still have won some Rocket, at least if we look at with vs without Oates during Hull big 3 years, the effect on is shooting percentage seem large, but the gap was so wide that he could still win.

90-91-92, with Oates, without oates


No...Oates: 0.89 goals, 0.55 assists, 1.44 pts, 0.15 +/-, 5.36 shots a games, 16.66%
With Oates: 1.01 goals, 0.54 assists, 1.54 pts, 0.07 +/-, 5.07 shots a games, 19.83%

Remove 12% of Hull goals totals if that Oates effect size and it would have look more like this:

89: 41, 13.4%
90: 63, 16.5%
91: 76, 19.5%
92: 62, 15.2%
93: 54, 13.8%
94: 57, 14.5%
95: 50, 14.5%

You need 62 goals in 1990, 51 in 1991 and 54 in 1992 to tie for the Rocket, he could decline a lot and still win all of those.

90 being the only really in question, post peak older Hull scored enough goals in 1994 (Janney-Duchese/Housley were really good playmaker, so maybe he still need competent playmarker) to win it in 91 and 92, with Lemieux-Neely missing game, Greztky-Yzerman goalscoring decline, he had to beat Theo Fleury-Kevin Stevens-Gary Roberts type.

 

[MadLuke]

Gretzky in 1987-88:

During the regular season, according to my excel sheet

With Coffey, per game pace:
59 games: 0.695 goals, 1.44 assists, 2.14 pts, 0.63 +/-, 19.16% shooting on 3.62 shoots
without
20 games: 1.05 goals, 1.8 assists, 2.85 pts, 1.6 +/-, shooting 28% on 3.7 shoots

Obviously not sustainable to shoot 28% a whole season, but even the assists are up.

Could be the schedule, but a bit surprised, then again it is Gretzky, could have been random/pure Gretzky first injury timing that the 200 pts season dry up for Gretzky the first seasson Coffey start missing game (than leave completely) and Lemieux getting is 199 his only full season with Coffey reinforcing that idea in my mind that he had something to do with it, but that was the only time Lemieux played a full season in his prime, in 1993 he could have reached 200pts with Murphy.

In 88 Mario goes from without Coffey
31 games, 1.03 goals, 1 assists, 2.03 pts, +/- 0.45, shooting 20.8%
to
46 games, 0.83 goals, 1.46 assist, 2.28 pts, +/- 0.2, shooting 16.7%

Not the boost I expected, specially goals wise.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

the only retro rocket i can see brett hull possibly losing without oates is 1990

in 1992, he led the league by 26 goals. in the 19 games he played after oates was traded, he scored 16 goals. 67 goal pace, which would still have won the goal scoring race by double digits.

in 1991, he led the league by 35 goals. oates missed five weeks in the fall and in the 18 games hull played in that span, he scored 16 goals. a 71 goal pace, still would have won the goal scoring race by 20.

in 1990, at least you had yzerman (62 goals) challenging a hypothetically oates-less hull.

 

[VanIslander]

I have always SEEN Ed Belfour as better than Martin Brodeur. But one has had Lou... and one hasn't. Building the team to defend - the EPIC team to defend ... really twisted perceptions. Lou's efforts got Brodeur at least one of his trophies.