OT: Subban - Just for Laughs Gala

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It's just a little banter, I can't believe people are actually feeling offended.

I'm not sure if you're referring to me...but I'm not offended, not like he was making jokes about me.

But it's a bit off-putting for me because I'm a Habs fan and any perceived slight towards the team I cheer for, I'm not a big fan of

but again, I understand the context in which those 'jokes' were made.

At the same time, why act like these 'jokes' were just in good humor and for fun...they weren't, they were targeted and for a reason.
 
Frank - I don't recall them celebrating Price's season but I don't live in Montreal any more and haven't been that involved. I do remember some sort of ceremony though, maybe someone can offer some insight here.

There was nothing for Subban as far as I know.

LShap - that's true, arrogant dudes don't like other arrogant dudes. But I really think Subban thinks he's funnier, cooler, wittier than he is. Would drive me nuts being his teammate.

417 - the disconnect here, I think, is that many fans associate themselves with Subban more than Therrien or Bergevin. Because we pay to watch Subban play, to electrify us, to bring us glory. We don't pay to watch Bergevin manage or Therrien coach.

Subban is a born and bred Hab, he'll have more loyalty from the fans and to the fans than Bergevin who never played here and has no connections to the organization and Therrien who is a coach with a really short leash.

Why would people enjoy shots at the Habs? Because it feels more like a Hab taking shots at a strange foxhole than the other way around.

In any case - you're allowed to be annoyed by the show and the jokes. But keep in mind it's JUSTE POUR RIRE. It's literally meant to push buttons.

Comedy is in peril because people keep building walls around sensitive topics. We have genocide and social devastation and outright climate distraction - those are serious topics. The Habs having a funny sounding coach should not be considered verboten.


Well perhaps I have a disconnect...because I didn't cheer exclusively for PK Subban to entertain me or to bring glory to the team. I cheer for the team to entertain me and to bring glory.
 
Because this discussion, I guess unfortunately, isnt about the money he raised for the charity.
That's the point. Even when he announces that he will donate 10M of dollars to children, the discussion is turned into ''fake guy! he's doing this for the captaincy!!''..
Always twisted around. Never about the good things.

I don't know what you want me to say? How many pages do you want to fawn over PK Subban raising money for children?

It's a wonderful act of philanthropy, it's a compliment that this kind of stuff is expected when it comes to PK Subban, he's socially conscious and that's a trait very few athletes/people have.

As for him taking shots at management?

Yeah, I've got a problem with it, doesn't sit well with me because regardless of how I feel about MB, MT, the trade itself, etc...i'm still a Habs fan and I don't enjoy seeing my team being destroyed at some comedy gala like they're some two bit run-of-the-mill sports team no one cares about
He didn't make fun of the Habs, he made fun of the people running the team.
Just like people love to say that you're a fan of the the jersey, not the players, well same applies to management.
I love the Habs, but I think Molson-Bergevin-Therrien are all extremely incompetent. That's not me taking a shot at the habs.
When did the Montreal Canadiens become the Springfield Isotopes??
Since they started hiring morons, one after the other.
People need to realize that today's Habs is not the Habs of 70s or older.
I'm sorry, but not even PK Subban gets to drag the Montreal Canadiens name through the mud and me be ok with it....yeah yeah, it was all for good fun and jokes and it was for a good cause.

All of that could of happened without the crass jokes...

I understand that before the show, he told people he wouldn't be taking shots at the organization, well he did just that...why would he say that, then do the opposite??
He did not drag the Habs through the mud. But glad to see what's important is how some fans might have gotten their feelings hurt because he dissed the management of their team...and the 130K he raised for kids...well...who gives a crap about them kids anyways. It's about a grown man's feelings towards the Habs...that's what matters.

Have a bit more perspective, maybe you won't be as sensitive.

I also heard that after the show ended, there was bloopers and there was clips of him impersonating Michel Therrien with his french/english accent, etc...

Again, perhaps I'm being overly sensitive here....but it comes off as cheap for me and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the kind of stuff that raises eyebrows in the NHL, either among players, coaches or executives.

You heard that?? Well...great. That doesn't mean a thing unfortunately.
Joe Thornton publicly said his GM should shut up when interviewed about his captaincy being taken away. Oh that Big Joe, what a funny guy. Everyone loved it and laughed.
PK goes to a freaking COMEDY show...where jokes are to be expected...he makes fun of management who just traded him in a very unpopular move. But that's too much...
:facepalm: Come on man. Yes. You definitely are being too sensitive.
 
You mean the team that tried to play hardball with him when he more than earned his contract? The team that ****ted on him in the media countless times? The team that treated him like more of a nuissance than anything? If we see it, I'm sure as hell PK saw it.

I don't see anything wrong with what he said. It's a comedy show, he was traded, the jokes were tame. I don't get the ********.

People talk about PK's "act"...complete nonsense. Good luck losing the right way.

When did the team **** on him? When was PK's name dragged through the mud? Because MT criticized his play? Thats what coaches do. People act like managment **** on PK all day long dissing him every chance they get when in fact MB has never said a bad thing about PK. If you want to call a coach calling out a bad play here or there as "dragging through the mud" then lots of coaches and organizations would be guilty.

Going to arbitration was not on MB that was on PK. He wanted to hold to his 9 Million + salary. Good on him but I don't blame MB for not wanting to go there and honestly he was correct in that. He was such a nuissance yet they made him a very rich man and allowed him to create this PK brand. If he would of played in Arizona or Columbus PK wouldnt have his huge fanbase or appeal.

As far as the Gala easy jokes and feeding into the crowd. He didn't write the jokes the person who did knew that what the fans wanted to hear. I think the only two things he said that I don't agree with were telling the fans to wear his preds Jersey at his next game to the Bell and the one about the song for his boss to take this job and shove it. The rest were all jokes that the crowd wanted to hear.
 
This whole thing really makes me think that there was a rift there and it started before this summer. We can blame whichever side you want, but its clear now that at least from PK's end he wasn't happy with management(and maybe the team).

Childrens hospital donation without informing the team and pandering to be named captain when he probably knew he didn't have the votes.
saying its not his job to score
Never coming back to the team even though he looked 100% healthy
saying everyone needs to better including management (shot to MB/MT)
Leaking that there is 50% chance he will be traded to Kyrpos way before any smoke appeaerd
BGL coming out with all the lockerroom juice (again most likely leaked from PK)
Saying he is glad to go somewhere where is wanted after the trade
60 minuted SN interview
JFL Gala where he took the low hanging fruit and went for pot shots.

All this adds up to me that PK was probably not happy playing in MTL. I am not saying he demanded a trade or gave an ultimatium, but I have a feeling PK knew and was ok with being traded out of this city and most likely this came up around his neck injury

That bolded part is a really great point that I have never thought of before. A lot of people go on about management being unhappy with PK, but as you say it is just as likely that PK was unhappy with management. If PK and Therrien butted heads, well, it takes two people to butt heads with each other. If Subban was late for practice, was the last on the ice and the first off the ice during practice, if he straight-up ignored the coach because he did not respect him, it's possible that he simply refused to listen and made himself difficult (impossible) to coach. It's very likely that he did this knowingly as well, because as we all know, he is very well aware of perceptions on social media. He knows that the narrative out there is very pro-PK and very anti-management, so maybe he gambled that if it really came down to the organisation having to choose between Therrien and himself that they would pick PK. Or maybe he didn't gamble on that, maybe he just can't help himself. That's the thing about narcissistic types, they aren't cold and calculating like psychopaths, they are impulsive and behave more like addicts because they are actually addicted to something called narcissistic supply, which is things like admiration, praise, or people subscribing to their narrative of how great and important they are. They are addicted to this feeling and even though they act like they are in control, they are actually hopelessly addicted to narcissistic supply and the minute you start to ignore them or start to act like they are not great, they freak out because they aren't getting their fix.
 

Therrien didn't need a gala to take shots at PK or Galchenyuk or Eller. He did it every chance he could. Secondly, this was a comedy event you know where people go to laugh! It just so happened to be for charity as well, you know to the hospital which PK promised to raise 10M for to help sick children.

And I wasn't a fan of that either...so it's not like I'm taking sides here.

As for the second part of your post, that it was for a comedy event, well that's all good, but it doesn't change my thoughts on this. I'm a Habs fan first, I'm not a fan of my team being ridiculed, no matter who is doing it or who is responsible for it.

If the team is being ridiculed it's because MB/MT are making a mockery of this franchise. If an owner inherits a company and runs it to the ground should he be supported no matter what? If a GM and coach go out of their way to single out the teams franchise players and trade them should they be supported? Like you have no problem with the Houle and Tremblay trading Roy because they are management and Roy is not? I did not realize that people went out and bought $300 jerseys of their favorite GM and coach. I thought they bought jerseys of their favorite players. Do you watch the players on the ice or do you buy tickets to go to the games and stare at the pressbox where the GM sits or the men behind the bench.


I wasn't aware the Habs were being 'run into the ground'...they traded a popular player for a player widely recognized, at least he was 1 month ago, as one of the best Dmen in the NHL.

I don't know what any of this has to do with what I wrote, I'm not saying fans buy jerseys for the GM's or coaches.

Yes many fans follow the players and feel attached to them. Especially the ones that bleed and give their hearts and soul for their team. Make no mistake, PK is a winner. He loves to prove people wrong and is at his best when he is being challenged and during big games. This is a rare quality. March 2nd can't come soon enough.

Again, to each his own...I'm more of the fan who is attached to the team, as opposed to individual players.
 
Ya...no...I don't buy that really. David Letterman used to take shots at NBC/Leno all the time because they screwed him over.
I think the shots taken at management weren't jokes but there's definitely issues with how they ran things. Too many things happened over the past years for it just to be meaningless comedy.

The show's content was a product of the writers, not PK Subban. Sure, PK approved the jokes, but he didn't create them. The nastiest bit, by far, was that letter scene with a fan writing a letter to Bergevin about the trade. It, and the other gentler shots at management, reflected what the writers thought the audience wanted to hear, nothing more. It was entertainment, not journalism.
 
The show's content was a product of the writers, not PK Subban. Sure, PK approved the jokes, but he didn't create them. The nastiest bit, by far, was that letter scene with a fan writing a letter to Bergevin about the trade. It, and the other gentler shots at management, reflected what the writers thought the audience wanted to hear, nothing more. It was entertainment, not journalism.

The part you are leaving out is that PK should be ashamed of himself for going along with this, because he is in a position to know better than anyone involved that this is just low. Giving the fans what they want to hear when you know full well it isn't true is worse than pandering, it is taking advantage of already existing perceptions even when you yourself know that they are inaccurate. It shows contempt for truth. It is a form of gaslighting. Same thing with his comment about being pulled over by the cops. You know he actually came by the police station in Nashville after the cops got killed in Dallas to show support for the cops? And now he is piggybacking on the "cops are racist" narrative just to crack a joke? This shows contempt for truth, he doesn't care what true. He will use whatever narrative suits him at any given moment, like a social chameleon.

At the Gala, he was in a position to step up and show that he is a leader, to put all gripes aside and move on with class, that is what a true leader would have done. And once again he failed miserably and behaved with absolutely no class, all while being called "pure class" by his fans, who all somehow think it's classy to be narcissistic.

The whole idea that hockey players are "entertainers" is such nonsense.
 
The part you are leaving out is that PK should be ashamed of himself for going along with this, because he is in a position to know better than anyone involved that this is just low. Giving the fans what they want to hear when you know full well it isn't true is worse than pandering, it is taking advantage of already existing perceptions even when you yourself know that they are inaccurate. It shows contempt for truth. It is a form of gaslighting. Same thing with his comment about being pulled over by the cops. You know he actually came by the police station in Nashville after the cops got killed in Dallas to show support for the cops? And now he is piggybacking on the "cops are racist" narrative just to crack a joke? This shows contempt for truth, he doesn't care what true. He will use whatever narrative suits him at any given moment, like a social chameleon.

At the Gala, he was in a position to step up and show that he is a leader, to put all gripes aside and move on with class, that is what a true leader would have done. And once again he failed miserably and behaved with absolutely no class, all while being called "pure class" by his fans, who all somehow think it's classy to be narcissistic.

The whole idea that hockey players are "entertainers" is such nonsense.

:cry::cry: What is this rubbish, do you even know the context of that joke and who are you to call him classless at a comedy show. Are you even aware that the show was booked from a long time ago. Who calls somebody classless at a COMEDY show anyway. My goodness where do you get your information. Never seen someone so out of the loop. Do you even know that this show raised 130k that night and here you are attacking somebody's character you don't even know. I'll tell you what classless is. Classless is when a moron on a tv show talks about making another human being "a better person". Somebody he has never even met. That is pure classless to me. jesus
 
The show's content was a product of the writers, not PK Subban. Sure, PK approved the jokes, but he didn't create them. The nastiest bit, by far, was that letter scene with a fan writing a letter to Bergevin about the trade. It, and the other gentler shots at management, reflected what the writers thought the audience wanted to hear, nothing more. It was entertainment, not journalism.

You seem to be supposing, do you have a source that PK was not involved in concept or script?
 
The part you are leaving out is that PK should be ashamed of himself for going along with this, because he is in a position to know better than anyone involved that this is just low. Giving the fans what they want to hear when you know full well it isn't true is worse than pandering, it is taking advantage of already existing perceptions even when you yourself know that they are inaccurate. It shows contempt for truth. It is a form of gaslighting. Same thing with his comment about being pulled over by the cops. You know he actually came by the police station in Nashville after the cops got killed in Dallas to show support for the cops? And now he is piggybacking on the "cops are racist" narrative just to crack a joke? This shows contempt for truth, he doesn't care what true. He will use whatever narrative suits him at any given moment, like a social chameleon.

At the Gala, he was in a position to step up and show that he is a leader, to put all gripes aside and move on with class, that is what a true leader would have done. And once again he failed miserably and behaved with absolutely no class, all while being called "pure class" by his fans, who all somehow think it's classy to be narcissistic.

The whole idea that hockey players are "entertainers" is such nonsense.

See, I don't agree with you anymore than I agree with Kriss. The show was neither hard news nor was it mean-spirited. It was an evening of lightweight comedy featuring PK Subban, set up to raise money for kids. That's it. Had PK not been traded it would've been a similar evening, minus the letter-writing bit and a couple of mild shots, and nobody would be talking about it days later. Instead, the trade overlaid the event with a fake aura of importance, as if there were coded messages in PK's jokes, and if we listened carefully we'd learn what REALLY happened. It's all BS. The writers were gifted great material when the trade happened one month before the event; they created a show for the audience to cheer PK and boo management. It's just entertainment.
 
That's the point. Even when he announces that he will donate 10M of dollars to children, the discussion is turned into ''fake guy! he's doing this for the captaincy!!''..
Always twisted around. Never about the good things.

Excuse me? All we've heard since PK Subban was traded, at least the majority, is how great he is and what a huge mistake the habs are making

Not sure where you're getting this from??

It USED to be this way, when he was a Hab, but ever since he's been traded, he's become everyone's favorite player.
He didn't make fun of the Habs, he made fun of the people running the team.
Just like people love to say that you're a fan of the the jersey, not the players, well same applies to management.
I love the Habs, but I think Molson-Bergevin-Therrien are all extremely incompetent. That's not me taking a shot at the habs.

And the people running the team, just like the players who play for the team...represent the team.

Not sure why this has to be explained?

Has anyone else, never mind in hockey, sports in general, done this sort of thing???

I don't know...again, I personally think it's cheap.

Since they started hiring morons, one after the other.
People need to realize that today's Habs is not the Habs of 70s or older.

I'm well aware today's Habs aren't the Habs of the 70's...again, don't know what the relevance of that statement is???

He did not drag the Habs through the mud. But glad to see what's important is how some fans might have gotten their feelings hurt because he dissed the management of their team...and the 130K he raised for kids...well...who gives a crap about them kids anyways. It's about a grown man's feelings towards the Habs...that's what matters.

Again, I've pointed out how great it was that he raised 130K for kids, don't know what else you want me to do here?? Write a thank you post???

Have a bit more perspective, maybe you won't be as sensitive.

Hmm...I find this post pretty ironic, but sure, let's go with me lacking perspective right now lol

You heard that?? Well...great. That doesn't mean a thing unfortunately.
Joe Thornton publicly said his GM should shut up when interviewed about his captaincy being taken away. Oh that Big Joe, what a funny guy. Everyone loved it and laughed.

Again, what does this have to do with anything???

Did Joe Thornton host a comedy gala where he shredded Doug Wilson?

PK goes to a freaking COMEDY show...where jokes are to be expected...he makes fun of management who just traded him in a very unpopular move. But that's too much...

Again, I think it's cheap...he got traded, just like many other players will from now until the end of time.

Had he not gotten traded, I'm guessing the tone of this gala would of changed dramatically. Again, he was the one who told people he wouldn't be taking shots at the Habs,, then he did just that.

Again, HE said this...not me, not you, not MB, MT...PK did.

Come on man. Yes. You definitely are being too sensitive

Again, this is pretty ironic given I haven't said anything disparaging towards PK Subban, you continue to think that I'm demonizing him when I've done no such thing. I just think what he did was cheap, nothing more, nothing less. Doesn't make him any less of a person or player.

I imagine if in 2 weeks from now, Marc Bergevin has a sitdown interview with Arpon Basu and details certain things people may not know about Subban in his tenure with the Habs, I imagine you'd have no problem with that right?

You wouldn't be sensitive to that?

Please...

Once again, I thought the way Therrien blasted PK and singled him out in the media was cheap and uncalled for, I thought the way management hasn't backed him publicly was cheap and uncalled for, I've been on record as saying that...

so I don't play favorites, I think I call it how it is...that's perspective
 
:cry::cry: What is this rubbish, do you even know the context of that joke and who are you to call him classless at a comedy show. Are you even aware that the show was booked from a long time ago. Who calls somebody classless at a COMEDY show anyway. My goodness where do you get your information. Never seen someone so out of the loop. Do you even know that this show raised 130k that night and here you are attacking somebody's character you don't even know. I'll tell you what classless is. Classless is when a moron on a tv show talks about making another human being "a better person". Somebody he has never even met. That is pure classless to me. jesus

Not sure what you're referring to there about that tv show "better person" thing, but none of what I said is rubbish. What PK is doing here is employing very textbook emotional manipulation techniques, something that to anyone with experience in personality disorders is plainly obvious. The thing is, most people don't understand or respect the significance of understanding personality disorders, so they are not as keenly aware of the subtle emotional manipulation tactics that emotional abusers employ. What PK did was classic gaslighting, here is a quote about gaslighting from a good introductory article on it:

“Dirty” fighters typically try to get the better of others by using tactics that effectively conceal obvious aggressive intent on their part while still successfully throwing their opponent on the defensive. The person on the receiving end of this kind of behavior senses in their gut that there’s some kind of victimization at play but can’t point to anything that clearly and objectively backs up their hunch. As a result, they end up feeling more than a little crazy. They might harbor feelings of anger toward the person they sense is an aggressor but also find themselves thrown into positions of anxious defensiveness, which makes them feel unjustified and unsure of themselves. If their manipulator also happens to be skilled in the art of “impression management” — displaying superficial charm and enjoying the capacity to make favorable impressions on others — those on the receiving end of their tactics are likely to feel even crazier. They might say to themselves: “I’ve always thought there was something wrong with them but perhaps there really is something wrong with me. After all, everyone else seems to like them.” So, in a sense, almost all manipulative behavior produces a gaslighting effect to some degree.​

Tell me that doesn't describe PK.

He goes to the Gala, cracks a few jokes, has a big smile on his face, and to his fans it looks all innocent, but look at what he actually accomplished. He reinforced every single anti-management pro-PK impression out there, showing himself to be a master manipulator who is very adept at managing people's impressions and being charming. All of a sudden, management is on the defensive and because it was a comedy show, there is this cover of "oh, it was just comedy" and management would look like they can't take a joke if they get offended by anything he says. In fact, they don't just look like they can't take a joke, they look like they are the ones who are being aggressive because they would look like they are attacking PK for having a personality and cracking jokes. That's what covert aggression does - it hides the aggressive intention in the original act, so that when the victim reacts to the abuse, the victim looks like they are the one being aggressive. Like a bully who spreads lies about you behind your back and makes you look like you're the crazy paranoid aggressive one when you freak out about it.

Seriously, learn about gaslighting. Learn about narcissistic abuse and about the dynamics of narcissistic-codependent relationships. Become aware of subtle emotional manipulation tactics such as gaslighting, belittling, reframing, love-bombing, and the whole narcissistic cycle of idealisation followed by devaluation and discarding.

So when you ask for evidence about PK's character, you have to understand that narcissistic personalities know full well about the importance of evidence and make it their duty to control all evidence, managing perceptions and impressions as their main factor. That's what narcissistic personalities do, they care only about perceptions, about how things look, and care very little about substance. Meaning, they don't care about being a good person, they care about looking like a good person and being seen as a good person in the eyes of others. They will put more effort into looking like a good person than an actual good person would put into actually being a good person. Think George Costanza on Seinfeld - always running around lying, managing other people's perceptions, staging elaborate situations like the marble rye scenario just to avoid looking bad in front of someone. The most important thing to a narcissistic personality is perceptions, they live in the world of perceptions. They bend, twist, and re-frame facts to their advantage and masterfully inhabit the world of perceptions. They paint a magnificent, exciting picture in their minds and they live inside that picture, reality be damned. When reality interferes with their fantasy, reality has to be discarded so that the fantasy can be preserved.
 
You seem to be supposing, do you have a source that PK was not involved in concept or script?

Do you have a source that PK Subban is a comedy writer who sat around the table brainstorming and coming up with bits?
 
Do you have a source that PK Subban is a comedy writer who sat around the table brainstorming and coming up with bits?

He doesn't have to be the one who wrote it, he is still the one who agreed to read the words off the piece of paper, even if it was someone else who handed the piece of paper to him, and in my view he should not have done that. He is responsible for the material because he is the one delivering it. The notion that he didn't write it doesn't excuse it. In my view anyway
 
See, I don't agree with you anymore than I agree with Kriss. The show was neither hard news nor was it mean-spirited. It was an evening of lightweight comedy featuring PK Subban, set up to raise money for kids. That's it. Had PK not been traded it would've been a similar evening, minus the letter-writing bit and a couple of mild shots, and nobody would be talking about it days later. Instead, the trade overlaid the event with a fake aura of importance, as if there were coded messages in PK's jokes, and if we listened carefully we'd learn what REALLY happened. It's all BS. The writers were gifted great material when the trade happened one month before the event; they created a show for the audience to cheer PK and boo management. It's just entertainment.

But it still could/should have been that...
 
Do you have a source that PK Subban is a comedy writer who sat around the table brainstorming and coming up with bits?

Nope but I didn't suppose that writers entirely scripted his routine. You were there at the Gala, was PK reading from a teleprompter? (Vlad suggests he was reading from a piece of paper). Even that would not prove he wasn't involved in creating the material. PK seems like a guy who does things his own way after all, and if I were to suppose I would suppose that he was involved in the process.
 
Not sure what you're referring to there about that tv show "better person" thing, but none of what I said is rubbish. What PK is doing here is employing very textbook emotional manipulation techniques, something that to anyone with experience in personality disorders is plainly obvious. The thing is, most people don't understand or respect the significance of understanding personality disorders, so they are not as keenly aware of the subtle emotional manipulation tactics that emotional abusers employ. What PK did was classic gaslighting, here is a quote about gaslighting from a good introductory article on it:

“Dirty†fighters typically try to get the better of others by using tactics that effectively conceal obvious aggressive intent on their part while still successfully throwing their opponent on the defensive. The person on the receiving end of this kind of behavior senses in their gut that there’s some kind of victimization at play but can’t point to anything that clearly and objectively backs up their hunch. As a result, they end up feeling more than a little crazy. They might harbor feelings of anger toward the person they sense is an aggressor but also find themselves thrown into positions of anxious defensiveness, which makes them feel unjustified and unsure of themselves. If their manipulator also happens to be skilled in the art of “impression management†— displaying superficial charm and enjoying the capacity to make favorable impressions on others — those on the receiving end of their tactics are likely to feel even crazier. They might say to themselves: “I’ve always thought there was something wrong with them but perhaps there really is something wrong with me. After all, everyone else seems to like them.†So, in a sense, almost all manipulative behavior produces a gaslighting effect to some degree.​

Tell me that doesn't describe PK.

He goes to the Gala, cracks a few jokes, has a big smile on his face, and to his fans it looks all innocent, but look at what he actually accomplished. He reinforced every single anti-management pro-PK impression out there, showing himself to be a master manipulator who is very adept at managing people's impressions and being charming.

Seriously, learn about gaslighting. Learn about narcissistic abuse and about the dynamics of narcissistic-codependent relationships. Become aware of subtle emotional manipulation tactics such as gaslighting, belittling, reframing, love-bombing, and the whole narcissistic cycle of idealisation followed by devaluation and discarding.

So when you ask for evidence about PK's character, you have to understand that narcissistic personalities know full well about the importance of evidence and make it their duty to control all evidence, managing perceptions and impressions as their main factor. That's what narcissistic personalities do, they care only about perceptions, about how things look, and care very little about substance. Meaning, they don't care about being a good person, they care about looking like a good person and being seen as a good person in the eyes of others. They will put more effort into looking like a good person than an actual good person would put into actually being a good person. Think George Costanza on Seinfeld - always running around lying, managing other people's perceptions, staging elaborate situations like the marble rye scenario just to avoid looking bad in front of someone. The most important thing to a narcissistic personality is perceptions, they live in the world of perceptions. They bend, twist, and re-frame facts to their advantage and masterfully inhabit the world of perceptions. They paint a magnificent, exciting picture in their minds and they live inside that picture, reality be damned. When reality interferes with their fantasy, reality has to be discarded so that the fantasy can be preserved.

I am still very confused at how you know PK personally to be able to judge his character. I mean you're throwing words in here as if you evaluated him psychologically. I find this to be very offensive because you do not know him personally. Who are you to judge him on his character. I can accept you say his jokes sucked but you seem pretty obsessed about the guy to a point you believe you know PK the human being. it's people like you that can keep spewing that PK stages every event, every donation and every hospital visit and it is absolutely disgusting.

I really don't know what your relationship with him is. I can tell you that I was at the show and so was Mrs. Beliveau and she absolutely adores PK so I think she knows more about character than us.
 
The part you are leaving out is that PK should be ashamed of himself for going along with this, because he is in a position to know better than anyone involved that this is just low. Giving the fans what they want to hear when you know full well it isn't true is worse than pandering, it is taking advantage of already existing perceptions even when you yourself know that they are inaccurate. It shows contempt for truth. It is a form of gaslighting. Same thing with his comment about being pulled over by the cops. You know he actually came by the police station in Nashville after the cops got killed in Dallas to show support for the cops? And now he is piggybacking on the "cops are racist" narrative just to crack a joke? This shows contempt for truth, he doesn't care what true. He will use whatever narrative suits him at any given moment, like a social chameleon.

At the Gala, he was in a position to step up and show that he is a leader, to put all gripes aside and move on with class, that is what a true leader would have done. And once again he failed miserably and behaved with absolutely no class, all while being called "pure class" by his fans, who all somehow think it's classy to be narcissistic.

The whole idea that hockey players are "entertainers" is such nonsense.
You don't really believe all this, do you?

If this isn't an ironic, satirical take on others, it might be in the running for the worst post of all time.

It's a comedy show - you clearly weren't there, you clearly don't care about it, you clearly ignore when he thanks the fans and the city and even the organization.

In what world do you live that you think you can cast such massive judgements after a comedy bit? Is it always so dreary and humourless or are you playing a character?

What is hockey if not a diversion, if not entertainment. What are hockey players if not entertainers?

How come you get to hold him to such a high, unnecessary, personal standard - what gave you the impression that you would get away with writing such blatantly biased takes?

When we discuss management or players or games - we discuss them in and of itself. I know nothing of Therrien's personality and my criticisms of him and his mannerisms is only referring to his hockey-related identity.

You're flat-out calling Subban, the person, classless. Which exposes your own identity better than you'd think.
 
I am still very confused at how you know PK personally to be able to judge his character. I mean you're throwing words in here as if you evaluated him psychologically. I find this to be very offensive because you do not know him personally. Who are you to judge him on his character. I can accept you say his jokes sucked but you seem pretty obsessed about the guy to a point you believe you know PK the human being. it's people like you that can keep spewing that PK stages every event, every donation and every hospital visit and it is absolutely disgusting.

I really don't know what your relationship with him is. I can tell you that I was at the show and so was Mrs. Beliveau and she absolutely adores PK so I think she knows more about character than us.

Do you know Mrs. Beliveau personally? :laugh: lol nevermind.
 
Not sure what you're referring to there about that tv show "better person" thing, but none of what I said is rubbish. What PK is doing here is employing very textbook emotional manipulation techniques, something that to anyone with experience in personality disorders is plainly obvious. The thing is, most people don't understand or respect the significance of understanding personality disorders, so they are not as keenly aware of the subtle emotional manipulation tactics that emotional abusers employ. What PK did was classic gaslighting, here is a quote about gaslighting from a good introductory article on it:

“Dirty†fighters typically try to get the better of others by using tactics that effectively conceal obvious aggressive intent on their part while still successfully throwing their opponent on the defensive. The person on the receiving end of this kind of behavior senses in their gut that there’s some kind of victimization at play but can’t point to anything that clearly and objectively backs up their hunch. As a result, they end up feeling more than a little crazy. They might harbor feelings of anger toward the person they sense is an aggressor but also find themselves thrown into positions of anxious defensiveness, which makes them feel unjustified and unsure of themselves. If their manipulator also happens to be skilled in the art of “impression management†— displaying superficial charm and enjoying the capacity to make favorable impressions on others — those on the receiving end of their tactics are likely to feel even crazier. They might say to themselves: “I’ve always thought there was something wrong with them but perhaps there really is something wrong with me. After all, everyone else seems to like them.†So, in a sense, almost all manipulative behavior produces a gaslighting effect to some degree.​

Tell me that doesn't describe PK.

He goes to the Gala, cracks a few jokes, has a big smile on his face, and to his fans it looks all innocent, but look at what he actually accomplished. He reinforced every single anti-management pro-PK impression out there, showing himself to be a master manipulator who is very adept at managing people's impressions and being charming. All of a sudden, management is on the defensive and because it was a comedy show, there is this cover of "oh, it was just comedy" and management would look like they can't take a joke if they get offended by anything he says. In fact, they don't just look like they can't take a joke, they look like they are the ones who are being aggressive because they would look like they are attacking PK for having a personality and cracking jokes. That's what covert aggression does - it hides the aggressive intention in the original act, so that when the victim reacts to the abuse, the victim looks like they are the one being aggressive. Like a bully who spreads lies about you behind your back and makes you look like you're the crazy paranoid aggressive one when you freak out about it.

Seriously, learn about gaslighting. Learn about narcissistic abuse and about the dynamics of narcissistic-codependent relationships. Become aware of subtle emotional manipulation tactics such as gaslighting, belittling, reframing, love-bombing, and the whole narcissistic cycle of idealisation followed by devaluation and discarding.

So when you ask for evidence about PK's character, you have to understand that narcissistic personalities know full well about the importance of evidence and make it their duty to control all evidence, managing perceptions and impressions as their main factor. That's what narcissistic personalities do, they care only about perceptions, about how things look, and care very little about substance. Meaning, they don't care about being a good person, they care about looking like a good person and being seen as a good person in the eyes of others. They will put more effort into looking like a good person than an actual good person would put into actually being a good person. Think George Costanza on Seinfeld - always running around lying, managing other people's perceptions, staging elaborate situations like the marble rye scenario just to avoid looking bad in front of someone. The most important thing to a narcissistic personality is perceptions, they live in the world of perceptions. They bend, twist, and re-frame facts to their advantage and masterfully inhabit the world of perceptions. They paint a magnificent, exciting picture in their minds and they live inside that picture, reality be damned. When reality interferes with their fantasy, reality has to be discarded so that the fantasy can be preserved.

One of the most odious posts I've read on here in a good long while. The honest to God depths some people will go to to defend management are simply beyond my comprehension.

Tell me, how does your description of gaslighting not fit your posting, to a literal tee? I mean my God, have you honestly no decency?
 
Not sure what you're referring to there about that tv show "better person" thing, but none of what I said is rubbish. What PK is doing here is employing very textbook emotional manipulation techniques, something that to anyone with experience in personality disorders is plainly obvious. The thing is, most people don't understand or respect the significance of understanding personality disorders, so they are not as keenly aware of the subtle emotional manipulation tactics that emotional abusers employ. What PK did was classic gaslighting, here is a quote about gaslighting from a good introductory article on it:

“Dirty†fighters typically try to get the better of others by using tactics that effectively conceal obvious aggressive intent on their part while still successfully throwing their opponent on the defensive. The person on the receiving end of this kind of behavior senses in their gut that there’s some kind of victimization at play but can’t point to anything that clearly and objectively backs up their hunch. As a result, they end up feeling more than a little crazy. They might harbor feelings of anger toward the person they sense is an aggressor but also find themselves thrown into positions of anxious defensiveness, which makes them feel unjustified and unsure of themselves. If their manipulator also happens to be skilled in the art of “impression management†— displaying superficial charm and enjoying the capacity to make favorable impressions on others — those on the receiving end of their tactics are likely to feel even crazier. They might say to themselves: “I’ve always thought there was something wrong with them but perhaps there really is something wrong with me. After all, everyone else seems to like them.†So, in a sense, almost all manipulative behavior produces a gaslighting effect to some degree.​

Tell me that doesn't describe PK.

He goes to the Gala, cracks a few jokes, has a big smile on his face, and to his fans it looks all innocent, but look at what he actually accomplished. He reinforced every single anti-management pro-PK impression out there, showing himself to be a master manipulator who is very adept at managing people's impressions and being charming. All of a sudden, management is on the defensive and because it was a comedy show, there is this cover of "oh, it was just comedy" and management would look like they can't take a joke if they get offended by anything he says. In fact, they don't just look like they can't take a joke, they look like they are the ones who are being aggressive because they would look like they are attacking PK for having a personality and cracking jokes. That's what covert aggression does - it hides the aggressive intention in the original act, so that when the victim reacts to the abuse, the victim looks like they are the one being aggressive. Like a bully who spreads lies about you behind your back and makes you look like you're the crazy paranoid aggressive one when you freak out about it.

Seriously, learn about gaslighting. Learn about narcissistic abuse and about the dynamics of narcissistic-codependent relationships. Become aware of subtle emotional manipulation tactics such as gaslighting, belittling, reframing, love-bombing, and the whole narcissistic cycle of idealisation followed by devaluation and discarding.

So when you ask for evidence about PK's character, you have to understand that narcissistic personalities know full well about the importance of evidence and make it their duty to control all evidence, managing perceptions and impressions as their main factor. That's what narcissistic personalities do, they care only about perceptions, about how things look, and care very little about substance. Meaning, they don't care about being a good person, they care about looking like a good person and being seen as a good person in the eyes of others. They will put more effort into looking like a good person than an actual good person would put into actually being a good person. Think George Costanza on Seinfeld - always running around lying, managing other people's perceptions, staging elaborate situations like the marble rye scenario just to avoid looking bad in front of someone. The most important thing to a narcissistic personality is perceptions, they live in the world of perceptions. They bend, twist, and re-frame facts to their advantage and masterfully inhabit the world of perceptions. They paint a magnificent, exciting picture in their minds and they live inside that picture, reality be damned. When reality interferes with their fantasy, reality has to be discarded so that the fantasy can be preserved.

Interesting stuff here...unfortunately, it's going to be presented as you just hating on PK Subban, but there's some really solid stuff that should at the very least make people think about this whole PK vs. Management angle.

I'm not sure I agree with all of the principles here but I'm certainly not going to dismiss them. I especially was provoked by the part about "not caring about being a good person, just looking like a good person".

Again, I'm not sure if I'm ready to apply that to PK Subban, I don't know him personally and have trouble believing someone who is so socially-conscious and donates so much time/money to charity, could be so duplicit, but it's certainly not inconceivable

and I only think that because of his 60 minute sit down with Eric Engels and this comedy gala-thing just turned me right off...
 
You don't really believe all this, do you?

If this isn't an ironic, satirical take on others, it might be in the running for the worst post of all time.

It's a comedy show - you clearly weren't there, you clearly don't care about it, you clearly ignore when he thanks the fans and the city and even the organization.

In what world do you live that you think you can cast such massive judgements after a comedy bit? Is it always so dreary and humourless or are you playing a character?

What is hockey if not a diversion, if not entertainment. What are hockey players if not entertainers?

How come you get to hold him to such a high, unnecessary, personal standard - what gave you the impression that you would get away with writing such blatantly biased takes?

When we discuss management or players or games - we discuss them in and of itself. I know nothing of Therrien's personality and my criticisms of him and his mannerisms is only referring to his hockey-related identity.

You're flat-out calling Subban, the person, classless. Which exposes your own identity better than you'd think.

:handclap:

Thanks for this. That entire post is just non-stop vileness that left me at a loss for words.

Say what you want about the rhetoric being directed at MT / MB, it's never reached a level of such all-encompassing hatred and slander as those recent posts towards Subban did.
 
Oh dear, I just got to the bit where the guy is calling Subban a gaslighter.

Oh my god, we've reached the singularity. If there was ever a moment where the "mean critics and haters" were completely overshadowed and overtaken - it's right here.

I've never seen such extreme, tertiary discourse on HF. It has nothing to do with hockey, with hockey management, or even with perceptions of the trade. No, it's one sycophant flat out insulting a hockey player's character and claiming that he's gaslighting the city of Montreal.

and y'all are gonna say that the "haters and critics" are overbearing on this forum? Hardly.
 
One of the most odious posts I've read on here in a good long while. The honest to God depths some people will go to to defend management are simply beyond my comprehension.

Tell me, how does your description of gaslighting not fit your posting, to a literal tee? I mean my God, have you honestly no decency?


It's just the incestuous management cult plumbing new depths of delusion :laugh:
 
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