Strength Down the Middle-One Semi Final Says Nah

[ottomaddox]

It's really hard to win a cup. Good goaltending / good defensive play can get you far no matter how much you pay in centers.

I don't think teams need to shift to use a MTL, TBL, VGK, and NYI's rubber stamp of hockey success.

No doubt 21-22's champion will be different, and have their own style of team building.

 

[OppositeLocK]

The fancy centres are all out, but not the strong ones.

Suzuki, Staal, and Kotkaniemi are all good.

Karlsson and Marchessault are solid, although Montreal has made them look ordinary.

Point has been excellent, but outside of that one bizarre game Monday, Stamkos has done nothing (one assist) against the Isles. The rest have been solid.

Barzal, Nelson, Pageau, and Cizikas (with Zajak and Komarov also available). Clutterbuck isn't a centre.

The problem is that Matthews and Tavares are not strong centres, which was, again, made quite obvious in the playoffs.

"Matthews for Pageau and (Cizikas)
JT for Danault and Kotkaniemi"

Either one in a heartbeat, but I don't think either Islanders or Habs would bite.

Matthews for Pageau and Cizikas???

Who the hell ever makes that trade?

Tavares for Danault and Kotkaniemi? Lmao go drunk you're home.

 

[OppositeLocK]

It's really hard to win a cup. Good goaltending / good defensive play can get you far no matter how much you pay in centers.

I don't think teams need to shift to use a MTL, TBL, VGK, and NYI's rubber stamp of hockey success.

No doubt 21-22's champion will be different, and have their own style of team building.

It's been a weird playoff run. Toronto losing Tavares, Benedict Fleury with the late-game giveaway, Kucherov being injured...

A lot of things just aligned. There is a greater chance this is all a flash in the pan than the new standard.

 

[Dave92]

The fancy centres are all out, but not the strong ones.

Suzuki, Staal, and Kotkaniemi are all good.

Karlsson and Marchessault are solid, although Montreal has made them look ordinary.

Point has been excellent, but outside of that one bizarre game Monday, Stamkos has done nothing (one assist) against the Isles. The rest have been solid.

Barzal, Nelson, Pageau, and Cizikas (with Zajak and Komarov also available). Clutterbuck isn't a centre.

The problem is that Matthews and Tavares are not strong centres, which was, again, made quite obvious in the playoffs.

"Matthews for Pageau and (Cizikas)
JT for Danault and Kotkaniemi"

Either one in a heartbeat, but I don't think either Islanders or Habs would bite.

Matthews and Tavares are easily the two of if not the two strongest on the puck centers of everybody you listed.

Firstly Tavares didn't even play and Matthews dominated possession when he was on the ice. Matthews problem was choking on scoring opportunities and the trap shutting down the offense in general. He lead the team in hits and was fine defensively but 1 goal with the way our roster is constructed isn't good enough.

 

[robertmac43]

Ah you know, just your typical strong two-way elite center scoring at a 38 goal pace over 3 seasons since joining us for a casual 5M.

Should be easy to find, I’m sure

True my bad, I forgot how easy it was to find those

 

[robertmac43]

For starters, how about J. G. Pageau? Maybe less offence in the regular season, but more in the playoffs, along with much better defensive play and faceoffs, for $5M cap hit.

You want to replace JT with Pageau?

 

[Dekes For Days]

You do realize that Tavares didn't even really play in the series, right...?

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

For years I hear all the experts. Build your team with strong centres.

So the Leafs have Matthews/Tavares.
Couldn't ask for more.

Montreal and Vegas both the weakest parts of their teams is the centre position.
TB is the unicorn, they are stacked everywhere.
NYI do have Barzal.

It seems you need size and toughness to win in the playoffs the way the game is officiated. Not high octane centres.
All the top centres are long out of the playoffs.

If you can't beat them join them.
Matthews for Pageau and Clutterbuck
JT for Danault and Kotkaniemi

Would we still be playing???

Probably not. The Leafs added size throughout their lineup. They were the third heaviest team in the league on average. Bogosian and Brodie were added on the blueline to improve it. Campbell played well in net. The Leafs had a nice combination of size, skill, grit and experience. I'm starting to think this team is just cursed.

I wouldn't necessarily call the Habs centres weak. They were underwhelming in the regular season, but they seem to have stepped it up in the playoffs. Suzuki, Kotkaniemi, Danault and Staal are looking pretty good right now.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Matthews and Tavares are easily the two of if not the two strongest on the puck centers of everybody you listed.

Firstly Tavares didn't even play and Matthews dominated possession when he was on the ice. Matthews problem was choking on scoring opportunities and the trap shutting down the offense in general. He lead the team in hits and was fine defensively but 1 goal with the way our roster is constructed isn't good enough.

Your first paragraph shows, to be kind, a huge bias towards Leafs players.

Your use of 'trap' shows a limited understanding of hockey.

 

[notDatsyuk]

You want to replace JT with Pageau?

Only partly. JT is fun to watch in the regular season, but Pageau would be more effective in the playoffs.

Not to mention having an extra $6M to use.

 

[robertmac43]

Only partly. JT is fun to watch in the regular season, but Pageau would be more effective in the playoffs.

Not to mention having an extra $6M to use.

I don't know about that. JT has been solid in the playoffs as a Leaf, if he wasn't injured this year then we may not even be having this conversation.

He's effective in the playoffs and scores at a higher clip in

 

[ponder]

The common theme between the remaining teams is they’re all strong in terms of:

• Depth
• Toughness
• Team D

With Montreal you could argue it’s more Price than team D, but same effect - these teams are all deep, tough and hard to score on. This combo isn’t the ONLY way to win in the playoffs, but I’d say most teams that go deep are strong in all 3 of those areas.

Our team D was actually very good this year, but we still have terrible toughness. And our forward depth is always going to be a weakness while the top 4 forwards take up ~half the salary cap. I honestly think one of JT/Marner has to go, and we need to use the assets and cap space to improve our toughness and forward depth.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I don't know about that. JT has been solid in the playoffs as a Leaf, if he wasn't injured this year then we may not even be having this conversation.

He's effective in the playoffs and scores at a higher clip in

I don't know. Four goals and four assists in 13 games, and far and away the worst +/- on the team. .62 PPG instead of his usual .99. No goals on the PP, which is his specialty in the regular season.

 

[Gallagbi]

Biggest takeaway is you don't need any specific formula to win. It's all cyclical and changes. Build a capable and confident team, then let it ride.

 

[AvroArrow]

Tampa - Point/Stamkos
STL - O'Rielly
Wash - Backstrom/Kuzy
Pitts - Crosby/Malkin
Chi - Toews
LA - Carter/Richards
Bos - Bergeron/Krejci
Det - Datsyuk/Zetterberg
Ducks - McDonald/Getzlaf
Canes - Brindamour/Staal

All the cup winners post lockout top centres. Elite C is and always will be important.

 

[hamzarocks]

I don't know about that. JT has been solid in the playoffs as a Leaf, if he wasn't injured this year then we may not even be having this conversation.

He's effective in the playoffs and scores at a higher clip in

JT has been dog shit in the playoffs for the leafs. 8 pts in 12 games and was killing the offense in 2019 by being a puck hog that series.

He's fortunate that we didn't blow a 3-1 lead with him otherwise he'd be getting the marner treatment.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Habs have a solid defense built playoff team .. starts in net and then 4 super big and strong defenders who don't give up kill zone ever .. their forwards are speed drivers .. Suzuki is better than most people give him credit for - fast, strong on puck, tough and decent skill .. and Caufield is gonna be very special with both speed and superior skill .. but it is perfect environment to put a kid in with his talents .. in 2/3 years he will be right there with Matty for Rocket

 

[Dave92]

Your first paragraph shows, to be kind, a huge bias towards Leafs players.

Your use of 'trap' shows a limited understanding of hockey.

Lmao I edited my first paragraph not to be rude. Your post was idiotic and you have no idea what your talking about.

Listing players like Kotkaniemi as "stronger" than Matthews, when it's not true physically or in any area of hockey. How about backing up you idiotic statement with facts.


"Your use of 'trap' shows a limited understanding of hockey." A NZ trap is exactly what they were using to stifle Toronto's zone entries. You're trying so hard to sound smart while posting nonsense.

 

[Gallagbi]

JT has been dog shit in the playoffs for the leafs. 8 pts in 12 games and was killing the offense in 2019 by being a puck hog that series.

He's fortunate that we didn't blow a 3-1 lead with him otherwise he'd be getting the marner treatment.

He was our best players last year. First season he was matched up vs. The Bergeron line and held his own, but the terrible PK killed us.

 

[hamzarocks]

He was our best players last year. First season he was matched up vs. The Bergeron line and held his own, but the terrible PK killed us.

He had only 3 in 5 last year. I'd say Matthews was our best, then really no one was that good afterwards. Tavares badly choked in game 5. That post he hit was so bad, he had the whole net and blew it.

2019 he did go against the match-up line but Marner gets shitted for a unproductive series so I think it's 9nly fair JT should as well

 

[Gallagbi]

He had only 3 in 5 last year. I'd say Matthews was our best, then really no one was that good afterwards. Tavares badly choked in game 5. That post he hit was so bad, he had the whole net and blew it.

2019 he did go against the match-up line but Marner gets shitted for a unproductive series so I think it's 9nly fair JT should as well

I thought Tavares generated more than any player on our team and made key plays. I wish he finished more, but he was still our most influential IMO with Matthews being right there.

Nylander a tier below and Marner likely at or a tier below Nylander.

I think Marner gets cropped on for being the weakest of the big guns in 3 straight playoffs. Boston is the series ppl cut him thr most slack on because of the matchup. You could also praise or condemn him for the PK work that series.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Lmao I edited my first paragraph not to be rude. Your post was idiotic and you have no idea what your talking about.

Listing players like Kotkaniemi as "stronger" than Matthews, when it's not true physically or in any area of hockey. How about backing up you idiotic statement with facts.


"Your use of 'trap' shows a limited understanding of hockey." A NZ trap is exactly what they were using to stifle Toronto's zone entries. You're trying so hard to sound smart while posting nonsense.

I'll just assume you have a very different concept of both 'strong' and 'trap' as they relate to hockey.

I do find that a lot of people use 'trap' as a generic term for 'shut down our offence'.

 

[Dave92]

I'll just assume you have a very different concept of both 'strong' and 'trap' as they relate to hockey.

I do find that a lot of people use 'trap' as a generic term for 'shut down our offence'.

You're the one who used the term strong so how about you define it. In terms of physical strength Matthews is very big and strong, and in terms of strength on the puck he is one of the strongest in the league.

I used trap to refer to the literal neutral zone trap Montreal employs clogging up the NZ and attacking the puck carrier, preventing teams from getting clean zone entries, Toronto doesn't dump and chase well so it killed a lot of their offense.

I'd love to hear the defenitions of strength and trap you're using.

 

[notDatsyuk]

You're the one who used the term strong so how about you define it. In terms of physical strength Matthews is very big and strong, and in terms of strength on the puck he is one of the strongest in the league.

I used trap to refer to the literal neutral zone trap Montreal employs clogging up the NZ and attacking the puck carrier, preventing teams from getting clean zone entries, Toronto doesn't dump and chase well so it killed a lot of their offense.

I'd love to hear the defenitions of strength and trap you're using.

I was only responding to the OP. The usual definition of 'strong' when referring to 'strength down the middle' in hockey, is centres who can dominate their counterparts, and carry the game. Matthews is just starting to get a feel for that. Tavares doesn't seem to have it.

The 'neutral zone trap' is (usually) a 1-3-1 setup, with one forechecker in deep and three players clogging up the neutral zone. That is absolutely NOT what Montreal has been doing.

 

[The Apologist]

I was only responding to the OP. The usual definition of 'strong' when referring to 'strength down the middle' in hockey, is centres who can dominate their counterparts, and carry the game. Matthews is just starting to get a feel for that. Tavares doesn't seem to have it.

Do you have statistics to back up this lack of dominance and strength? I always thought both had very strong possession numbers.

The 'neutral zone trap' is (usually) a 1-3-1 setup, with one forechecker in deep and three players clogging up the neutral zone. That is absolutely NOT what Montreal has been doing.

What is it Montreal has been doing?