Strength Down the Middle-One Semi Final Says Nah

[The Iceman]

For years I hear all the experts. Build your team with strong centres.

So the Leafs have Matthews/Tavares.
Couldn't ask for more.

Montreal and Vegas both the weakest parts of their teams is the centre position.
TB is the unicorn, they are stacked everywhere.
NYI do have Barzal.

It seems you need size and toughness to win in the playoffs the way the game is officiated. Not high octane centres.
All the top centres are long out of the playoffs.

If you can't beat them join them.
Matthews for Pageau and Clutterbuck
JT for Danault and Kotkaniemi

Would we still be playing???

Click to read more...

 

[WTFMAN99]

Find someone that provides what JT provides for 5-6M less.

 

[Buds17]

Montreal and Vegas have different situations (particularly at the top of the depth chart) in net and on the blueline. Vegas also has a Selke finalist on the wing. Different teams, different strengths.

 

[Mickey Marner]

You need centers that are not only good, but will also defend and play with some intensity. Danault has two assists these playoffs but has been one of their best forwards. These teams all have centers that can not score and be worth every penny, we have zero.

 

[robertmac43]

Find someone that provides what JT provides for 5-6M less.

Where does that exist?

 

[notDatsyuk]

For years I hear all the experts. Build your team with strong centres.

So the Leafs have Matthews/Tavares.
Couldn't ask for more.

Montreal and Vegas both the weakest parts of their teams is the centre position.
TB is the unicorn, they are stacked everywhere.
NYI do have Barzal.

It seems you need size and toughness to win in the playoffs the way the game is officiated. Not high octane centres.
All the top centres are long out of the playoffs.

If you can't beat them join them.
Matthews for Pageau and Clutterbuck
JT for Danault and Kotkaniemi

Would we still be playing???

The fancy centres are all out, but not the strong ones.

Suzuki, Staal, and Kotkaniemi are all good.

Karlsson and Marchessault are solid, although Montreal has made them look ordinary.

Point has been excellent, but outside of that one bizarre game Monday, Stamkos has done nothing (one assist) against the Isles. The rest have been solid.

Barzal, Nelson, Pageau, and Cizikas (with Zajak and Komarov also available). Clutterbuck isn't a centre.

The problem is that Matthews and Tavares are not strong centres, which was, again, made quite obvious in the playoffs.

"Matthews for Pageau and (Cizikas)
JT for Danault and Kotkaniemi"

Either one in a heartbeat, but I don't think either Islanders or Habs would bite.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Where does that exist?

For starters, how about J. G. Pageau? Maybe less offence in the regular season, but more in the playoffs, along with much better defensive play and faceoffs, for $5M cap hit.

 

[Rude Dog]

Habs got the Leafs without Tavares. Jets without Schiefele. Even Vegas who is thin at center without or with an injured Stephenson. Levelled the playing field for them.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

The fancy centres are all out, but not the strong ones.

Suzuki, Staal, and Kotkaniemi are all good.

Karlsson and Marchessault are solid, although Montreal has made them look ordinary.

Point has been excellent, but outside of that one bizarre game Monday, Stamkos has done nothing (one assist) against the Isles. The rest have been solid.

Barzal, Nelson, Pageau, and Cizikas (with Zajak and Komarov also available). Clutterbuck isn't a centre.

The problem is that Matthews and Tavares are not strong centres, which was, again, made quite obvious in the playoffs.

"Matthews for Pageau and (Cizikas)
JT for Danault and Kotkaniemi"

Either one in a heartbeat, but I don't think either Islanders or Habs would bite.

Tavares didn't even play in the playoffs, so I don't see how it was made obvious that he's not a strong center. Trading Matthews for Pageau/Cizikas in a heartbeat is easily one of the worst things I've ever seen

 

[Jozay]

The fancy centres are all out, but not the strong ones.

Suzuki, Staal, and Kotkaniemi are all good.

Karlsson and Marchessault are solid, although Montreal has made them look ordinary.

Point has been excellent, but outside of that one bizarre game Monday, Stamkos has done nothing (one assist) against the Isles. The rest have been solid.

Barzal, Nelson, Pageau, and Cizikas (with Zajak and Komarov also available). Clutterbuck isn't a centre.

The problem is that Matthews and Tavares are not strong centres, which was, again, made quite obvious in the playoffs.

"Matthews for Pageau and (Cizikas)
JT for Danault and Kotkaniemi"

Either one in a heartbeat, but I don't think either Islanders or Habs would bite.

Hilarious

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

The Leafs have never truly taken advantage of our alleged "strength down the middle" since Tavares signed in the playoffs. 2019 Kadri was stupid and killed any advantage we had in that series. 2020 Keefe was a moron and played Tavares alongside Matthews in Game 5 making it easier for Columbus to shut them down. 2021 Tavares got knocked out not even 10 minutes into Game 1 against Montreal, the Leafs should've still won the series being up 3-1 without JT but yeah not a good time.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Tavares didn't even play in the playoffs, so I don't see how it was made obvious that he's not a strong center. Trading Matthews for Pageau/Cizikas in a heartbeat is easily one of the worst things I've ever seen

Tavares has played in other playoffs, and except for one series, been mostly invisible.

Trading Matthews for Pageau and Cizikas would give us two more strong centres than we have now, plus an extra $3M in cap space. With them, we might still be playing, although we have several other problems.

 

[MakeTheIronSing]

Tavares has played in other playoffs, and except for one series, been mostly invisible.

Trading Matthews for Pageau and Cizikas would give us two more strong centres than we have now. With them, we might still be playing, although we have several other problems

You should go ask an Islanders fan if Tavares has been “invisible” in their playoffs runs. He’s done something no core player has ever done on this team - scored clutch goals, in big games at big moments.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Tavares has played in other playoffs, and except for one series, been mostly invisible.

Trading Matthews for Pageau and Cizikas would give us two more strong centres than we have now, plus an extra $3M in cap space. With them, we might still be playing, although we have several other problems.

if you think Cizikas is a strong center and Matthews isn't, there's simply no discussion to be had. It's too far outside of reality

 

[notDatsyuk]

You should go ask an Islanders fan if Tavares has been “invisible” in their playoffs runs. He’s done something no core player has ever done on this team - scored clutch goals, in big games at big moments.

As I said, except for one series in 2016, he's got 10 goals and 21 points in 31 playoff games, and is a -15.

And considering they have won 24 playoff games (and counting) in the last two years, the Islanders seem to be getting lots of clutch goals without him.

Or did you mean he has scored clutch goals for us? The only goal in a 5-1 loss to Boston when they eliminated us; the second goal in a 3-0 win and the second goal in a 4-3 OT win against Columbus. How many were 'clutch'?

 

[Menzinger]

The fancy centres are all out, but not the strong ones.

Suzuki, Staal, and Kotkaniemi are all good.

Karlsson and Marchessault are solid, although Montreal has made them look ordinary.

Point has been excellent, but outside of that one bizarre game Monday, Stamkos has done nothing (one assist) against the Isles. The rest have been solid.

Barzal, Nelson, Pageau, and Cizikas (with Zajak and Komarov also available). Clutterbuck isn't a centre.

The problem is that Matthews and Tavares are not strong centres, which was, again, made quite obvious in the playoffs.

"Matthews for Pageau and (Cizikas)
JT for Danault and Kotkaniemi"

Either one in a heartbeat, but I don't think either Islanders or Habs would bite.

You're going to have to explain this one a bit more......

Because that seems more than a little extreme.

 

[notDatsyuk]

if you think Cizikas is a strong center and Matthews isn't, there's simply no discussion to be had. It's too far outside of reality

Well I did say Pageau and Cizikas, and obviously you only want to look at Cizikas, who is a very strong defensive fourth line centre.

Pageau is only a third liner, but let's compare him: with only 70% more ES and PP ice time (287 to 167 minutes), he has 200% more goals, 150% more assists, and is a +9 compared to Matthews' +1.

 

[notDatsyuk]

You're going to have to explain this one a bit more......

Because that seems more than a little extreme.

Matthews isn't bad, but Tavares, unless he's on the PP, doesn't seem to do much, and is still a defensive liability.

Neither one seems to be able to pick up a team and lead them to victory. They don't drive the net well, they don't fight in the corners or slot well, they don't drive play. When the going gets tough, in the playoffs, they don't 'up their game another level', all things that 'strong' centres do.

Matthews was better this year, and hopefully he will learn what it takes to win.

Tavares is a nice toy for the regular season, but I have no faith in him in the playoffs.

Ouch. Just reread that. Sorry for the cliche-fest.

 

[Menzinger]

Matthews isn't bad, but Tavares, unless he's on the PP, doesn't seem to do much, and is still a defensive liability.

Neither one seems to be able to pick up a team and lead them to victory. They don't drive the net well, they don't fight in the corners or slot well, they don't drive play. When the going gets tough, in the playoffs, they don't 'up their game another level', all things that 'strong' centres do.

Matthews was better this year, and hopefully he will learn what it takes to win.

Tavares is a nice toy for the regular season, but I have no faith in him in the playoffs.

Ouch. Just reread that. Sorry for the cliche-fest.

I think it's fair to they've earned criticisms for their last couple playoff performances (well, in the case of Tavares, the 2020 playoffs), but the other stuff like saying they don't drive play seems pretty unsubstantiated.

Both guys are capable of carrying a line on their own

 

[Cor]

Where does that exist?

Ah you know, just your typical strong two-way elite center scoring at a 38 goal pace over 3 seasons since joining us for a casual 5M.

Should be easy to find, I’m sure

 

[notDatsyuk]

I think it's fair to they've earned criticisms for their last couple playoff performances (well, in the case of Tavares, the 2020 playoffs), but the other stuff like saying they don't drive play seems pretty unsubstantiated.

Both guys are capable of carrying a line on their own

They can in the regular season, and Matthews does it very well, but we're specifically talking about the playoffs, and they don't seem to be able to do it then.

 

[MakeTheIronSing]

As I said, except for one series in 2016, he's got 10 goals and 21 points in 31 playoff games, and is a -15.

And considering they have won 24 playoff games (and counting) in the last two years, the Islanders seem to be getting lots of clutch goals without him.

Or did you mean he has scored clutch goals for us? The only goal in a 5-1 loss to Boston when they eliminated us; the second goal in a 3-0 win and the second goal in a 4-3 OT win against Columbus. How many were 'clutch'?

Cool. He has 22 points in 24 games in New York.

Maybe… it’s not him that’s the problem?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Cool. He has 22 points in 24 games in New York.

Maybe… it’s not him that’s the problem?

As it said, except for one series, he's 13 points in 18 games, and a -7.

Yes, he had the most points during the three times they made the playoffs, but he was also fifth worst +/- among the 40 players.

In three playoffs here, he has easily the worst +/- at -8 (next is Muzzen at -4).

He's not necessarily a problem, although his salary may be, but he's also not a solution .

 

[ITM]

Strength down the middle is a hockey maxim isn't it?

I get being shell-shocked by what Montreal did and is doing, but if they didn't have an all-star goalie, and the big-bodied defence to match, and work ethic that puts team goals first, I don't think it matters what centers they have or dont have.

Grass is greener every year and every year it's a different lawn.

Whatever configuration our club resembles next year, if we had half of the Canadiens work ethic, I doubt we whiff on three chances to close a series out.

"Coming together is a beginning. Staying together is progress. Working together is success." - Henry Ford

+++

As a reminder, our top two scorers in the playoffs were Nylander and Kerfoot. Nylander was a bit better than a ppg and Kerfoot was a bit less. If the argument goes we should build on support-types, it's interesting to note how often Nylander and Kerfoot are bandied about in hypothetical deals and how they surprised? in leading the club in scoring.

If Matthews and Marner scored at their respective clips, and Nylander and Kerfoot scored at M and M's, we'd still be out because we needed one goal at the right time to advance. But no one scored it - stars or support pieces.

Not so sure it's a killer instinct needed so much as detached calm that takes no notice of distraction and simply repeats process until each small goal is achieved, intended on building to the larger.

That kind of focus comes from the top. Wouldn't be surprised a bit to learn that Lou Lamoriello has absolutely no idea if his neighbours have grass on their lawns or not.

 

[MakeTheIronSing]

As it said, except for one series, he's 13 points in 18 games, and a -7.

Yes, he had the most points during the three times they made the playoffs, but he was also fifth worst +/- among the 40 players.

In three playoffs here, he has easily the worst +/- at -8 (next is Muzzen at -4).

He's not necessarily a problem, although his salary may be, but he's also not a solution .

I agree, he’s probably not the problem. The people who continue to have no (even moderate) success on this team in the postseason are probably the problem. But, he’s a part of the team, so I guess he’s culpable too. But, I think we could all agree he gets a pass this season.