How much longer can the Leafs not win the Cup before people realize the core sucks?
Steve Yzerman is not a good GM.
- Thread starter LEAFANFORLIFE23
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The Panther
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I don't follow Detroit much and I certainly don't have an informed opinion about Yzerman's moves. However, I will say two points about how I generally evaluate (to the extent that I do, which is limited) the work of NHL GMs:
-- I never evaluate anything until at least two full years into the GM's reign. In most cases, it takes three or four years before the "GM's team" begins to really emerge.
-- People need to stop making excuses and always focus on wins/losses and playoff appearances, because that's all that matters.
So, Yzerman has had 5 years, which should be long enough to have shown serious progress. Now, in defense of Yzerman, he inherited a pretty dreadful team with major contract issues, so it was always going to take longer than 2 or 3 years to sort all that out. And they have improved each of the past four seasons, which at least is progress.
But on the other hand, it's been half a decade, and... zero playoff games played, so that's a hard fail.
My general take would be this: Because they missed the playoffs last year -- which is a year some people thought they would/should make it --, Yzerman's status as GM right now is something like "moderate failure". I mean, this isn't a participation league -- you either win, or you're a failure. However, if the Wings have a good season in 2024-25 and just qualify for the playoffs (even if they lose 4 straight in the first round), we can surely say that Yzerman's status changes to "decent". And then if they continue to improve after that, he moves into the "moderate success" and maybe "success" categories.
-- I never evaluate anything until at least two full years into the GM's reign. In most cases, it takes three or four years before the "GM's team" begins to really emerge.
-- People need to stop making excuses and always focus on wins/losses and playoff appearances, because that's all that matters.
So, Yzerman has had 5 years, which should be long enough to have shown serious progress. Now, in defense of Yzerman, he inherited a pretty dreadful team with major contract issues, so it was always going to take longer than 2 or 3 years to sort all that out. And they have improved each of the past four seasons, which at least is progress.
But on the other hand, it's been half a decade, and... zero playoff games played, so that's a hard fail.
My general take would be this: Because they missed the playoffs last year -- which is a year some people thought they would/should make it --, Yzerman's status as GM right now is something like "moderate failure". I mean, this isn't a participation league -- you either win, or you're a failure. However, if the Wings have a good season in 2024-25 and just qualify for the playoffs (even if they lose 4 straight in the first round), we can surely say that Yzerman's status changes to "decent". And then if they continue to improve after that, he moves into the "moderate success" and maybe "success" categories.
Sombastate
Registered User
They have a 1C in Larkin, a 1W in Raymond, a 1D in Seider.
Gonna be interesting to see what Edvinsson, Bergs and Co add to the table this year and see what we've got actually cooking over there
Gonna be interesting to see what Edvinsson, Bergs and Co add to the table this year and see what we've got actually cooking over there
T REX
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- Feb 28, 2013
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Seriously? How's he even working right now? Weird. Must be more luck I guess.
FissionFire
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Well I am a Wings fan and read plenty of scouting reports and interviews heading into every draft especially surround our pick, so my point stands. Nobody expected Seider to get picked at 6. Feel free to post the plethora or interviews and/or articles stating otherwise. I’ll be waiting but since you are most likely a troll I doubt you’ll do it, or at most find one link from some unknown source and trumpet it as proof everyone agreed.
If we re going by that logic only Florida has a good core.
31 teams don't win the cup.
But not all 31 teams miss the playoffs every year but Detroit does
Palat was a great pick. So was Paquette, Joseph, Cirelli, Ross Colton.
The McDonaugh trade was a home run. Cernak trade as well. Signing Tyler Johnson.
The point of the matter was that he stumbled on a core of 5 superstars to build around.
You don't draft 2 time Art Ross winners at 59th overall. Vasi was a fantastic pick but they felt that Kookoek was a better pick with their first round and risked him not being there at 19.
They liked Brayden Point so much that they picked DeAngelo, Masin and MacLeod before him.
What we are seeing in Detroit is what happens when an average GM (and lets be honest they're all average) doesn't get incredibly lucky by inheriting two superstars and drafting 3 more with non lottery picks.
Tampa drafted 6 players. SIX! before Kirill Kaprizov was drafted at 135th overall in 2015. Why didn't Yzerman show his foresight with that russian superstar?
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Yeah at the time Seider was ranked 10-15 by most scouts hence the surprise.
Hippasus
1,9,45,165,495,1287,
Although the Red Wings are one of my favorite teams, I'm not a Red Wings fan per se, but I think Yzerman has done all right in his tenure as GM. The trades and free agent signings are sort of mid, but what else is he supposed to do to get a superstar? Blow up the team, barely hit the cap floor, and tank? That might be one way to do it, but in a hockey market like Detroit that probably wouldn't go over so well. If a few of their prospects that we've been hearing so much about (like Edvinsson) pan out, look out. How is a team like New Jersey somehow a success story while Detroit is mediocre in the last five years? The Devils made the playoffs once in the last five years and didn't have the poor lottery luck the Red Wings did. In a couple years, the quality of Yzerman's work will begin to form into shape as success or failure. I'm thinking it'll be considered a mild success at that point.
Oddbob
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Yzerman inherited a crater when he returned. Dylan Larkin was the only top end player he had when he arrived here. There were also many bad contracts he had to either wait out or move, which took the first 2-3 seasons of his return. He has been back for 5 seasons, 2-3 waiting out the aforementioned. All of the young players in the pipeline turned mostly into duds (Zadina) or disappointments like Rasmussen or Veleno. Since he returned the Wings have dropped or stayed where they were in the draft lottery, and he came out with 2 of the better Top 5 picks in many recent drafts in Seider and Raymond.
We didn't get lucky and get a Matthews, Marner, McDavid level all-star like some teams when we were bottoming out, which makes any rebuild Detroit or any other team have a much harder time getting back to relevancy. Not all his moves were good, but most have been good or great, minus Holl and Copp. Campbell creates no logjam as very unlikely he beats any of Lyon, Husso or Talbot for the 2 spots in Detroit.
This is also hilarious coming from a Leafs fan, who picked up two of the better players drafted in quick succession and have gotten to the 2nd round, let's see, oh that is right, ONCE! Maybe worry how your team fails every year and never changes its main core of players.
Oddbob
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They also had MacKinnon, Landeskog and Rantanen on their team already and got lucky that Makar is as good as he is. When we went from 1st to 4th we got Raymond who is really good, but we didn't luck ourselves into a Makar. Larkin is the only player even in the realm of what Colorado had when they finished with 48 pts. Just having no Makar and the Avs easily don't win the Cup they did win.
This thread is about Yzerman, so 8 (3 additional) years without playoffs has nothing to do with Yzerman.
Kevs Security
inmateMack/CanesMack/LeafMack/elMacko
Patience, my young padawan. No prospects, trash core, bad contracts. Rebuild takes time. Can't rush this shit. You young people want everything NOW, that's your problem. Detroit already won a few. Had a playoff streak of 25 years or something. It's their turn to suck for a while. Steve is trying to recreate the winning culture of those Lidstrom-led teams. A year from now, they will be contenders once again.
Oddbob
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You are pathetic. Pittsburgh got Crosby and Malkin back to back, on top of 2 or 3 other really good young players which equals about the best draft luck in NHL history. If Pittsburgh didn't win at least a couple of Cups from those two then they would be the biggest fail in NHL history. Colorado had MacKinnon, Rantanen and Landeskog already on the team ready to go by 2017 and then got really lucky that Makar smashed it out of the park.
Try to read, the Wings had Larkin only when Yzerman came back. The rest of the players he inherited were mostly not great and certainly not game changers.
The Pens without either Crosby or Malkin maybe have 1 Cup, certainly not 3, and Colorado doesn't win the Cup if they didn't get fortunate that Makar was so good. Yzerman has had a 4th overall as his highest pick during the past 5 seasons of drafting for Detroit. Any of the teams that are doing better in rebuilds had at least 1 Top 1-2 pick and some of them have had multiple first overalls.
We were literally on pace to beat that record during one of the Covid seasons, because Holland left a train wreck team. We then dropped to 4th in the draft as a reward. Difference is we got Raymond (good), and not Makar (great).
Wry n Ginger
Water which is too pure has no fish
People who criticize Vancouver fans are softly detached and incredibly...hmm...we'll go with pissy little bitches?
Yzerman has been "ok" as a GM. That's really about it. If he didn't have his player pedigree and his success in Tampa and was just judged on his "no name" results he would be crucified as a shit GM. If Detroit was his first stint as a GM he would have been fired a while ago.
Oddbob
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Seider was a reach at 6, even the people discussing it during the draft said a few MAYBE had him at 8, and a number of others had him in the 15-23 range. Detroit and Edmonton were the only ones who were known to have him that high and Edmonton was because Holland had taken over for them at that point. He was not ranked 6th going into that night.
That’s a pretty “just average” prospect group for a team that’s missed the playoffs 5 times in his tenure.
A lot of that are players who were taken earlier than they should have (Danielsson), players who have stalled or haven’t progressed as originally projected (Kasper, Wallinder, Soderblom), and some decent but no blue chip talent (Brandsegg-Nygard, Augustine, ASP).
It’s decent but Detroit lacks a franchise talent. Perhaps Detroit gets lucky and one of these players turns into one, my bet being MBN. But missing the playoffs for 8 years, not exactly having a true franchise talent is rough.
Oddbob
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Yeah, Toronto with a much better team always makes it 1 round and then says buh-bye!. They are the master class on how to get it done.
saska sault
Registered User
If you year after year since being hired make your team better, improve in wins and points, and move up the standings is that a failure? According to some of you, yes.
You can argue about prospects, that's legitimate until you actually know how guys turn out but he has built up the pool of young talent, hasn't really traded away any picks. The real answer to this question is years away but any one who isn't being eristic can see they have taken a step forward every. single. year.
You can argue about prospects, that's legitimate until you actually know how guys turn out but he has built up the pool of young talent, hasn't really traded away any picks. The real answer to this question is years away but any one who isn't being eristic can see they have taken a step forward every. single. year.
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Florida didn't lose in the first round 7 out of 8 times after having expectations.
When have I ever called Toronto a master class?
I've said the opposite od that.
The difference is they got rid of the people who failed for 5 straight years.
One of them is in Pittsburgh making a bad situation worse by trading top 15 picks for 35 year old D men.
The other is the worst coach in the NHL, he's about to get carried to the playoffs by elite talent and then whoever he's coaching against come playoff timewill coach circles around him because they always do, he NEVER makes adjustments.
You have NO IDEA how badly I want a Toronto VS NJ playoff series.
But regardless difference is they fired Dubas and Keefe because they failed for 5 straight years.
I don't know if It's going to work under Treliving and Berube that remains to be seen.
But I do know it didn't work under Dubas and Keefe so they got fired and rightly so.
Yzerman has accomplished even less in Detroit than Dubas and Keefe did in Toronto, but yet Yzerman job is safe.
Why? the truth is It's because he's Steve Yzerman and he's GM in Detroit, nobody is going to fire him in Detroit he's an icon there.
Anybody else in any other sport would be fired after 5 straight years of no playoffs.
Not Yzerman, not in Detroit.
I think there comes a point where the only progress is playoffs and I think Detroit has reached that point.
Oddbob
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Dubas did nothing in Toronto and neither did Keefe. Losing in the 1st round with the talent they have is as sad as it gets. They also didn't change whats failed. Matthews and Marner have both been pretty disappointing in the playoffs and nowhere near good enough and they are still there, as is Tavares and Nylander and Rielly. They are brought up because you are foolishly attacking another team eventhough about 85% of the thread posters have told you how wrong you are. You are then calling Yzerman's failure a fact, again with everyone else telling you that you are wrong, which makes it nowhere near fact!
85% of people don't believe in facts, when you are a GM and you miss the playoffs for 5 straight years you are a failure that's an undisputed fact.
But again Yzerman won't get fired because nobody in Detroitis going to fire the greatest Red Wing to ever live next to Gordie Howe It's not going to happen he's an icon in Detroit he will be there as long as he wants, and when he moves on it will be painted as HIS call.
He's invincible in Detroit
Tkachuk4MVP
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