State of the Jackets

Nov 13, 2006
11,558
1,437
Ohio
McConnell's vision is involved in Worthington Industries.

The owners with a "vision", Jerry Jones, Danny Snyder, et al. usually screw up their entire franchise.

Ah- perhaps you've isolated the problem.

How do you explain Detroit?
I imagine Mike Ilitch provides vision for Little Ceasar's, yet the Red Wings are consistently the same through several coaches and GMs.

Why were the Habs the way they were for many generations under the same ownership, then bad when owned by George Gillette with multiple coaches and GMs?

Can you explain the Cleveland Browns? The Patriots? The Blackhawks? The Maple Leafs?

I can explain the Redskins - Danny Snyder is a bad owner who constantly tries to fix individual problems through acting as a GM of sorts. Because of this, I believe he probably can't see the forest from the trees. I think Jerry Jones and the Cowboys is more complex. He's an amazing football businessman, yet a horrible GM.

My explanation for good/bad is the management team. Not the owner.

That's a fair statement. Based on that, how does the owner make the right management hires?
 

Jackets16

Registered User
Jan 7, 2005
12,018
619
There are 2 types of bad GM's. The one who does nothing no matter what is going on. The one who tries to be the GM. The best owners are the ones who hire the right people and let them do their job, but when they aren't they make changes.
 

Jackets16

Registered User
Jan 7, 2005
12,018
619
I posted this as a reply to Skraut in another thread, but really believe it belongs in the State of the Jackets thread. So if the mods don't mind I'm re-posting here:

I believe in the old adage that a fish rots from the head down. I don't have a Mayor Bee baseball story, so I will have to rely on a football story.

I have a family member who is very active in business in Pittsburgh. One of his business deals put him in regular contact with Dan Rooney, the Steelers owner and CEO until a few years ago. I went to a social gathering and was introduced to Mr. Rooney. He is a very nice man- very gracious. Of course I was a bit intimidated and didn't know what to talk about, so I went for football. I'm not a Steeler fan and being a lifelong Browns fan has put me at a point where I just no longer follow the NFL at all. I do follow college football.

I asked Mr. Rooney a question that I've wondered for a long time that seems to extend to all pro sports that have a draft and a salary cap. Why do the Steelers always seem to be competitive and often a shot at a championship when they rarely pick early in the draft? Why do teams who often pick very early and have a chance at the great talent often continue to fail miserably?

His answer was interesting and illuminating for me. It certainly explained a lot about personnel decisions.

The consistently good teams like the Steelers know what a Steeler looks like, one who fits their team concept and vision. One who should be able to mesh in the locker room and play within their system. When it comes to the draft, they don't choose the most talented player available ie. the "best player available" they choose the best Steeler available. The same is true for free agency signings as well.

He went on to say that if you follow for a while, the unsuccessful teams usually choose the best player available regardless of culture or fit. Those teams are a collection of pretty talented players who don't mesh very well.

I've never forgotten the brief conversation. He didn't talk about nor did I ask about management or coaching but he certainly made me think about it. From afar, it certainly seems to me his team has made consistent coaching hires as well. While the game has changed, the Steelers persona has not. They are a physical, tough, grind it out kinda team with an aggressive defense and just enough high end talent to go for the big play once in a while. This was true in the 70s and 80s under Chuck Noll. In the 90s and 2000s under Cowher and has carried forward under Tomlin. No wonder they have stability, they are all "Steelers coaches." The common thread under several GMs, and coaches over the last 40 years? The Rooney family. They made hires that could carry out their vision.

What do the Jackets do? What's their team persona? Has it been that consistently since their inception? Have they had a vision? What's a Blue Jacket look like? How would a good Blue Jackets team play? What is their style? Are they a tough physical in your face team like the Big Bad Bruins or the Broad Street Bullies? Are they a sublimely talented and fast team like the Habs? or the Oilers of the 80s and 90s?

Who the hell are they? I know Hitch wanted a team full of "glue guys" who were hard to play against. Did MacLean and Howson? Arniel wanted a fast, aggressive highly skilled team. Did Howson? I know the current management wants a team built brick by brick. OK, what kind of bricks?

Perhaps most important- what does ownership want? What's Mr. McConnell's vision? Is it clear, like we will have an organization that believes this and such, or is it fuzzy, like win games? Do they make hires who align to that vision? Do they draft and sign players according to that vision?

Based on that brief conversation, I think Mr. Rooney might say that's the key to consistent success or failure.

Well said. I am a Dayton basketball fan and we talk about this all of the time. We don't get the best players we could probably get, but we get guys who fit our system and team really well. That is why I wonder what Columbus is doing. We seem to be drafting players for a different type of system than our NHL team is playing.
 

Jackets16

Registered User
Jan 7, 2005
12,018
619
Did someone really just post that a player shouldn't play hard because we aren't good? Really? REALLY?! I can not believe anyone would even think of saying something like that. One, it is their job. Two, they get paid to play hard and do their best every game. If they don't, they are intentionally throwing the game. That is a HUGE problem as I am sure you guys know.
 

JacketsDavid

Registered User
Jan 11, 2013
2,665
910
McConnell's vision is involved in Worthington Industries.

The owners with a "vision", Jerry Jones, Danny Snyder, et al. usually screw up their entire franchise.

They guys you quote are trying to be owners and GM (at least with JJ I know that for sure, it may be his son's title but JJ is calling shots).

Signed,
Long suffering Cowboy Fan
 

EspenK

Registered User
Sep 25, 2011
15,842
4,446
Did someone really just post that a player shouldn't play hard because we aren't good? Really? REALLY?! I can not believe anyone would even think of saying something like that. One, it is their job. Two, they get paid to play hard and do their best every game. If they don't, they are intentionally throwing the game. That is a HUGE problem as I am sure you guys know.

I agree with the shouldn't but suspect that losing takes a mental toll and subconsciously (or even knowingly) some guys don't play as hard once the goal is out of reach. I agree that it is a huge problem and once it starts it is contagious. Sort of the opposite of last years winning streak where I think everyone fed on it. Unfortunately it didn't carry over to this year.
 

Jackets16

Registered User
Jan 7, 2005
12,018
619
It becomes part of the culture. Don't play hard when things aren't going your way. That is one of the worst things that can happen to an organization.
 

Double-Shift Lasse

Just post better
Dec 22, 2004
34,651
15,880
Exurban Cbus
I doubt that successful owners carry out their vision. You may find it laughable, but I think it's working in multiple sports franchises across the sporting landscape. I don't think having a vision for the team means involvement in or meddling in day to day operations. I think it means having a high level vision and hiring executives who align to that vision and execute on it by hiring front office and coaching staffs who can execute on it. Hiring scouts who understand what they are looking for and provide solid information on both pro and amateur players.

You can laugh all you want but I buy it. How else can we explain success over multiple generations in several franchises? I doubt it's luck.

What's your explanation for why good teams regularly succeed over the years and bad teams regularly fail over the years?

Here's another thing I've been thinking about recently (feel free to stop reading now) that I thought was just a potential parallel but may be more directly applicable.

For years, the "city leaders" in Columbus wanted to make the city big-time. They kept doing things that they thought would accomplish this (among them, obtaining an NHL franchise), but without a clear plan or strategy. Just "stuff" they thought were things that were big-time. It's really only been in the past few years that the city has really started to take shape, and in some cases, not as a result of anything the "city leaders" directly did, but perhaps out of a concept fostered by said "city leaders".

Being "big time" might be a vision, but I believe "city leaders" had not identified specific ways in which Columbus might become such, or what Columbus specifically would look like in such circumstances. Your vision, and thus your courses of action, should be case-specific.

It may be no coincidence that the Mac family was a part of the "city leadership" that wandered directionless for a couple decades. So I think this bit of Cannoli's post is especially relevant:

What do the Jackets do? What's their team persona? Has it been that consistently since their inception? Have they had a vision? What's a Blue Jacket look like? How would a good Blue Jackets team play? What is their style? Are they a tough physical in your face team like the Big Bad Bruins or the Broad Street Bullies? Are they a sublimely talented and fast team like the Habs? or the Oilers of the 80s and 90s?

Who the hell are they? I know Hitch wanted a team full of "glue guys" who were hard to play against. Did MacLean and Howson? Arniel wanted a fast, aggressive highly skilled team. Did Howson? I know the current management wants a team built brick by brick. OK, what kind of bricks?

Perhaps most important- what does ownership want? What's Mr. McConnell's vision? Is it clear, like we will have an organization that believes this and such, or is it fuzzy, like win games? Do they make hires who align to that vision? Do they draft and sign players according to that vision?
 

Dr. Fire

What, me worry?
Jun 29, 2007
7,796
74
Jacketstown, Ohio
I thought this was a great article. Agree with the culture thing and how it has come from the top of the organization. Not Nash, not a coach, not a GM, but from the tippy top! It is what lost us our original TV play-by-play guy, Dan Kelly, and got us our current, Rimmer. (I loved Kelly, and to be honest think Rims is a class act, though not as good a play-by-play guy as Kelly is.) Will things change? Who knows. But maybe, just maybe..........

-- Tortorella has sent a message to the world, but especially inside Nationwide, that he's going to defend the dressing room at all points above him. He's not going to simply conform to Columbus, as so many others have. He's bringing Tortorella to the city, for good or bad.
-- Dubinsky, Hartnell and others now know it's OK for them to step up and speak their minds, to confront younger players -- or even fellow veterans -- when the peformance isn't there. Tortorella has their back. They won't be censured from above.
-- Foligno now has help lifting the burden. He took the criticism personally -- how could he not? -- but it's lifted some of the burden by bringing the topic to the fore and letting everybody speak about it. Tortorella passed it off after the game, but it meant something when he greeted Foligno on the bench after Brandon Saad's late second-period goal, patting him upside the head. It meant something when Hartnell - always goofy -- leaned over and kissed Foligno on the helmet after he scored the 5-3 goal.
-- the dressing room, as a whole, took a step toward operating as a family, not as an office place. A dressing room should be a huge family, full of egos and eccentricities. It fights. It disagrees. It bickers and argues. But after that stuff reaches the surface, the family usually emerges tighter than ever.

http://bluejacketsxtra.dispatch.com/content/blogs/puck-rakers/2015/12/a-needed-carthasis.html
 

Double-Shift Lasse

Just post better
Dec 22, 2004
34,651
15,880
Exurban Cbus

EspenK

Registered User
Sep 25, 2011
15,842
4,446
Good discussion about the ownership. I wonder does McConnell current have the same desire to even own the team?

I do believe he made an intelligent decision to hire JD as head of hockey. Hindsight says it may not be working as well as it should but at the time it made sense.

Now I know this next comment will send many into apoplexy but one thing the Jackets organization has never done is a wholesale fire sale of under producing players. Perhaps because there weren't many that others wanted. If this season continues as it has been I would think now would be the time to consider it. Clearly define what the team is supposed to look like and take the necessary steps to at least be in a position to build towards it. Unless the current roster is close without wholesale subtractions there is not the cap space nor the roster space to effect much change.
 

EspenK

Registered User
Sep 25, 2011
15,842
4,446
Ugh. I hate this even though I want to love it. And it's not got anything to do with my opinion of Tortorella. It has to do with the convenience of this "everything will be better now" tone right after the "leadership" focus by Portzline - as if his reporting has now solved all that ails the Jackets.

I read the article and thought maybe this will be good for the long run. I am not a Porty hater and without that bias the article made sense.
 

Dr. Fire

What, me worry?
Jun 29, 2007
7,796
74
Jacketstown, Ohio
Ugh. I hate this even though I want to love it. And it's not got anything to do with my opinion of Tortorella. It has to do with the convenience of this "everything will be better now" tone right after the "leadership" focus by Portzline - as if his reporting has now solved all that ails the Jackets.

I hear ya, and agree. No way in hell I don't remain skeptical about this or the team in general.

But what I liked was the fact that this suppression from above has finally been publicly exposed. Oh, we all know it existed, but it was never really put out in the public domain. The example that I gave. No matter what excuse XGMDM gave, everyone knew Kelly was let go because he was honest about the teams short comings.

At least Torts saw it, and has addressed it. No matter what else happens, he isn't going to allow it anymore. Who knows, maybe in the end it costs him his job.

Tough to fight the power.
 

Jackets16

Registered User
Jan 7, 2005
12,018
619
Ugh. I hate this even though I want to love it. And it's not got anything to do with my opinion of Tortorella. It has to do with the convenience of this "everything will be better now" tone right after the "leadership" focus by Portzline - as if his reporting has now solved all that ails the Jackets.

I LOVE it. Everyone knows it is going on. We need change. Hopefully, if nothing else, this type of change comes from this bad season.
 

Valdiz

Registered User
Apr 4, 2015
76
0
Moscow
Absolutely agree with everything TaketheCannoli said.
Did someone really just post that a player shouldn't play hard because we aren't good? Really? REALLY?! I can not believe anyone would even think of saying something like that. One, it is their job. Two, they get paid to play hard and do their best every game. If they don't, they are intentionally throwing the game. That is a HUGE problem as I am sure you guys know.
Hi there! It must've been me.Only I didn't say that they shouldn't play hard because cbj isn't good right now. All i meant was, that sometimes giving their their best (the whole team, not just Joey) isn't nessesary draft-wise. As mentioned above by EspenK, contant losing may take its toll - true! But win-streaking like last year can be deceptive. I totally agree you about the fact that they are paid and this is their job, but I think we all find ourselves slacking from time to time.
I do want to see more cbj wins, I really do, just so that it doesn't put CBJ out of top draft picks. Higher draft picks = higher chance of future top players (not always of course, just chance) or at very least, trade chips.
Happy new year, everybody!
 

Double-Shift Lasse

Just post better
Dec 22, 2004
34,651
15,880
Exurban Cbus
I read the article and thought maybe this will be good for the long run. I am not a Porty hater and without that bias the article made sense.

This presumes I am a Porty hater, which is not the case. But I do believe he has his own biases, which were evident in his reporting (and in the latest linked piece as well, re: Dubinsky and the captaincy). And now suddenly, in the wake of this public laundry-airing orchestrated by the intrepid reporter, it's a whole new day? Just like that?

I suppose someone will want to claim that the problems are solved and I'm just mad they didn't get solved the way I'd prefer. I would respond hat there have been a lot of things happen that I wouldn't have preferred in this franchise's history, and yet here I am.
 

We Want Ten

Johnny Gaudreau
Apr 5, 2013
6,751
2,067
Columbus
I just wonder if this issue with joey has permeated the team. I'm not blaming joey, but with all the trade rumors surrounding this team and the tough times they have been through, all with an axe above their heads, you wonder if something (anything) needs done to alleviate the pressure.
Obviously winning would cure that, but I wonder if the seeds of discontent have started to bloom.
 

Jackets16

Registered User
Jan 7, 2005
12,018
619
Absolutely agree with everything TaketheCannoli said.

Hi there! It must've been me.Only I didn't say that they shouldn't play hard because cbj isn't good right now. All i meant was, that sometimes giving their their best (the whole team, not just Joey) isn't nessesary draft-wise. As mentioned above by EspenK, contant losing may take its toll - true! But win-streaking like last year can be deceptive. I totally agree you about the fact that they are paid and this is their job, but I think we all find ourselves slacking from time to time.
I do want to see more cbj wins, I really do, just so that it doesn't put CBJ out of top draft picks. Higher draft picks = higher chance of future top players (not always of course, just chance) or at very least, trade chips.
Happy new year, everybody!

Actually, you did say that.

"What is the point of throwing himself on the line in a season that is 100% wasted?"

That means don't play hard if your team isn't good.
 

Jackets16

Registered User
Jan 7, 2005
12,018
619
This presumes I am a Porty hater, which is not the case. But I do believe he has his own biases, which were evident in his reporting (and in the latest linked piece as well, re: Dubinsky and the captaincy). And now suddenly, in the wake of this public laundry-airing orchestrated by the intrepid reporter, it's a whole new day? Just like that?

I suppose someone will want to claim that the problems are solved and I'm just mad they didn't get solved the way I'd prefer. I would respond hat there have been a lot of things happen that I wouldn't have preferred in this franchise's history, and yet here I am.

IMO, it has nothing to do with problems being solved. It has to do with starting the process of improving problems within the organization.
 

EDM

Registered User
Mar 8, 2008
6,273
2,065
If u tie good ownership to hiring good management, then i agree. But that is not an issue of vision of the owner. It is a measure of the onwer's ability to choose good peoplr.
 

Jackets16

Registered User
Jan 7, 2005
12,018
619
If u tie good ownership to hiring good management, then i agree. But that is not an issue of vision of the owner. It is a measure of the onwer's ability to choose good peoplr.

Well, it depends. I agree with you for where we are. The management should set up how the team should play, what type of people/players you want, etc.... Once that is set up, it is up to the owner to keep that management or properly replace them. The owner can also be a part of how to play, who to get if they want. Then hire management who has the same philosophies. I'd prefer management do that though.
 

EspenK

Registered User
Sep 25, 2011
15,842
4,446
Well, it depends. I agree with you for where we are. The management should set up how the team should play, what type of people/players you want, etc.... Once that is set up, it is up to the owner to keep that management or properly replace them. The owner can also be a part of how to play, who to get if they want. Then hire management who has the same philosophies. I'd prefer management do that though.

I made an early new year's resolution to try to understand your posts. Luckily it is still 2015 as this one seems to go in a circle. :dunno:
 

Badger36

Registered User
Jan 4, 2010
2,326
0
Columbus, OH
Things are bad. No doubt. I fully expect them to clean house this summer and everyone who isnt willing to work hard will be gone.
In many ways, people in Columbus are spoiled sports fans. Theyre used to the Buckeyes winning, used to the Crew winning and theres a certain expectation that the Jackets will win as well. The current level of play is not acceptable and will not be tolerated.
 

Johansen2Foligno

CBJ Realest
Jan 2, 2015
9,266
4,178
Things are bad. No doubt. I fully expect them to clean house this summer and everyone who isnt willing to work hard will be gone.
In many ways, people in Columbus are spoiled sports fans. Theyre used to the Buckeyes winning, used to the Crew winning and theres a certain expectation that the Jackets will win as well. The current level of play is not acceptable and will not be tolerated.

They can only do so much house cleaning with contracts and such.
 

Ad

Ad

Ad