State of the Jackets

[major major]

I'm impressed with the team structure. They look well coached. They're doing their jobs.

Why are they losing? Right now I'd say there just isn't much finish. If you look at the high danger scoring chances the last few games, the Jackets got just as many as the other clubs. My only question is whether the lack of finish is talent or just variance. I have to say guys like Saad and Foligno lead me to think there is a talent issue. Not enough finishing ability. But it's not a high priority problem for us.

The longer run problem is the D. Most decent D can play well defensively in Torts system. But there is no danger on the rush when the Jackets are coming out of their zone. Either the forwards are playing too low to help the D, in which case the other team can recover and play 3 men back forcing the Jackets to inevitably dump it in, which they always do. Or the passing from the back is just a bit off. Pittsburgh's new coach is making one big change and that's to stop having Crosby and Malkin help the D so much. Pittsburgh's D might be even worse than ours, so they tried having the centers loop down low on breakouts to help them out. It works defensively but kills the danger in the rush. I haven't noticed if our C's play as low as theirs did but it's something I'm curious about.

And as far as long run issues go, I'd say team passing is an issue. This is a dump and chase team that tries to outmuscle it's opponents. Good passing by the other club can completely dissarm the Jackets, making the muscle useless because you can't catch good passing. Dump and chase with no catch.

 

[BluejacketNut]

Who does the blame fall on for RyJo's benching? Torts or Joey?

Both. Torts is making an example of Joey (I dont think anyone else has been benched an entire period), which will end bad. Joey for the lackadaisical player he is.

We can pretty much kiss Joey goodbye, which some will be a fan of, but will leave a void of any elite level talent this team has. Joey isnt the type that you build a team around, but you need his skill on the team, much like Nash was, which we've won all of 2 playoff games since trading,so it wasnt a resounding success....meanwhile Nash has already been to the finals

They better plan on sticking with Torts long term because Joey is as good as gone pretty much as soon as possible, whether that's the teams choice or his.

 

[BluejacketNut]

I'm impressed with the team structure. They look well coached. They're doing their jobs.

Why are they losing? Right now I'd say there just isn't much finish. If you look at the high danger scoring chances the last few games, the Jackets got just as many as the other clubs. My only question is whether the lack of finish is talent or just variance. I have to say guys like Saad and Foligno lead me to think there is a talent issue. Not enough finishing ability. But it's not a high priority problem for us.

The longer run problem is the D. Most decent D can play well defensively in Torts system. But there is no danger on the rush when the Jackets are coming out of their zone. Either the forwards are playing too low to help the D, in which case the other team can recover and play 3 men back forcing the Jackets to inevitably dump it in, which they always do. Or the passing from the back is just a bit off. Pittsburgh's new coach is making one big change and that's to stop having Crosby and Malkin help the D so much. Pittsburgh's D might be even worse than ours, so they tried having the centers loop down low on breakouts to help them out. It works defensively but kills the danger in the rush. I haven't noticed if our C's play as low as theirs did but it's something I'm curious about.

And as far as long run issues go, I'd say team passing is an issue. This is a dump and chase team that tries to outmuscle it's opponents. Good passing by the other club can completely dissarm the Jackets, making the muscle useless because you can't catch good passing. Dump and chase with no catch.

Lack of high end talent across the board

 

[DarkandStormy]

Did we get lucky during those two off the charts streaks last year?

Yes, there was no pressure of the playoffs. It meant nothing.

The norm is mediocrity since J.D. took over...well, since 2000 really. Outside of getting hot the last 20 games each season, the team is pretty much bottom 5 in the league. Over half the teams get into the playoffs. Only one of those hot streaks at the end earned them a spot. I'm sure we'll do it again this spring going from 30th to 22nd.

There have been a couple threads on J.D. and Jarmo the last two seasons. Are we appreciably better than when they came in? The roster, on paper, I guess you could say but are we seeing anything different in the results? It's year 4. We're going backwards.

Over 40% of the season gone and on pace to match the all-time low in franchise history for points in a season. On pace to shatter the worst home record in franchise history.

I think more blame/accountability needs to be directed towards the front office and this mess they created. How much longer do we need to realize this current group flat out sucks together? Sure, there may be talented individuals but whatever the plan or the identity is (I don't even know what it is anymore) just is not working.

Maybe we can have a Tampa Bay or Montreal-esque rebound and go from top 5 draft pick one season to playoffs the next, but I'm not so confident about it.

 

[DarkandStormy]

. Not enough finishing ability. But it's not a high priority problem for us.

We're 25th in scoring with the 2nd-highest paid group of forwards in the league. We're struggling to get to 2 goals a game right now. How is this NOT a high priority problem (assuming you weren't being sarcastic)?

 

[major major]

We're 25th in scoring with the 2nd-highest paid group of forwards in the league. We're struggling to get to 2 goals a game right now. How is this NOT a high priority problem (assuming you weren't being sarcastic)?

Because you can't fix it without huge cost. We have $40m+ invested in these forwards and for all the lack of finish, I'm not entirely sure some of it isn't just variance. Personally I'd like us to swap Saad for a guy with elite passing and finishing. We have enough size and skating. Get a type like Mathieu Perreault. But there's not much you can do.

The D group is a longer standing concern and a bigger issue. One big addition back there would go further than anything we do up front.

 

[MAHJ71]

Yes, there was no pressure of the playoffs. It meant nothing.

The norm is mediocrity since J.D. took over...well, since 2000 really. Outside of getting hot the last 20 games each season, the team is pretty much bottom 5 in the league. Over half the teams get into the playoffs. Only one of those hot streaks at the end earned them a spot. I'm sure we'll do it again this spring going from 30th to 22nd.

There have been a couple threads on J.D. and Jarmo the last two seasons. Are we appreciably better than when they came in? The roster, on paper, I guess you could say but are we seeing anything different in the results? It's year 4. We're going backwards.

Over 40% of the season gone and on pace to match the all-time low in franchise history for points in a season. On pace to shatter the worst home record in franchise history.

I think more blame/accountability needs to be directed towards the front office and this mess they created. How much longer do we need to realize this current group flat out sucks together? Sure, there may be talented individuals but whatever the plan or the identity is (I don't even know what it is anymore) just is not working.

Maybe we can have a Tampa Bay or Montreal-esque rebound and go from top 5 draft pick one season to playoffs the next, but I'm not so confident about it.

Honest question: who's out there that has the ability to turn us around?

 

[blahblah]

Because you can't fix it without huge cost. We have $40m+ invested in these forwards and for all the lack of finish, I'm not entirely sure some of it isn't just variance. Personally I'd like us to swap Saad for a guy with elite passing and finishing. We have enough size and skating. Get a type like Mathieu Perreault. But there's not much you can do.

The D group is a longer standing concern and a bigger issue. One big addition back there would go further than anything we do up front.

Saad is a 25+ goal scorer, will probably be around 30 as he progresses in his career. I don't think our issue "finishing" is in the top six but more from a lack of any secondary scoring and a total lack of goals from our defense.

13, 12, 10, 9 from your top 4 goal scorers is pretty good. For example, Ottawa has 17, 13, 9. 8. That isn't a huge difference. The Avs are 16, 10, 8, 8. Karlsson from Ottawa has more goals than our entire defense.

I have absolutely zero desire to even consider moving Saad. I've been happy with him.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Because you can't fix it without huge cost. We have $40m+ invested in these forwards and for all the lack of finish, I'm not entirely sure some of it isn't just variance. Personally I'd like us to swap Saad for a guy with elite passing and finishing. We have enough size and skating. Get a type like Mathieu Perreault. But there's not much you can do.

The D group is a longer standing concern and a bigger issue. One big addition back there would go further than anything we do up front.

I guess I'm not following...we admittedly have a group of forwards that is struggling to score, but that ISN'T the problem?

 

[WannabeFinn]

I guess I'm not following...we admittedly have a group of forwards that is struggling to score, but that ISN'T the problem?

As a team we're not scoring a whole lot but that's not because our big ticket forwards are doing so terribly. Hartnell, Jenner, and Atkinson are doing great. Saad and Dubinsky have been good enough. Foligno is on pace for ~40 points despite an abnormally low shooting percentage and that's taking its toll on Johansen's numbers IMO. What we're missing is scoring from the bottom 6 and from the defense. Our defense has scored 6 goals (JJ 3x, Murray 2x, Golobouf 1x) through 33 games. That's just god awful. Then there's the (rest of the) bottom 6 who has scored what? 11 goals?

No forward in the top 6 is seriously underperforming for their contract. You could argue Foligno is but he's just been snakebit with goals. He's still getting the assists and playing well defensively.

 

[EspenK]

I'm impressed with the team structure. They look well coached. They're doing their jobs.

Why are they losing? Right now I'd say there just isn't much finish. If you look at the high danger scoring chances the last few games, the Jackets got just as many as the other clubs. My only question is whether the lack of finish is talent or just variance. I have to say guys like Saad and Foligno lead me to think there is a talent issue. Not enough finishing ability. But it's not a high priority problem for us.

The longer run problem is the D. Most decent D can play well defensively in Torts system. But there is no danger on the rush when the Jackets are coming out of their zone. Either the forwards are playing too low to help the D, in which case the other team can recover and play 3 men back forcing the Jackets to inevitably dump it in, which they always do. Or the passing from the back is just a bit off. Pittsburgh's new coach is making one big change and that's to stop having Crosby and Malkin help the D so much. Pittsburgh's D might be even worse than ours, so they tried having the centers loop down low on breakouts to help them out. It works defensively but kills the danger in the rush. I haven't noticed if our C's play as low as theirs did but it's something I'm curious about.

And as far as long run issues go, I'd say team passing is an issue. This is a dump and chase team that tries to outmuscle it's opponents. Good passing by the other club can completely dissarm the Jackets, making the muscle useless because you can't catch good passing. Dump and chase with no catch.

Having never played the game I don't completely get the positioning aspect of certain players/positions. But i have watched and played enough sports to know when something is amiss. It seems like the Jackets are always along the boards and have trouble getting the puck to the middle of the ice. I'm thinking major's reasoning is an explanation for what I see.

 

[futurcorerock]

Both. Torts is making an example of Joey (I dont think anyone else has been benched an entire period), which will end bad. Joey for the lackadaisical player he is.

We can pretty much kiss Joey goodbye, which some will be a fan of, but will leave a void of any elite level talent this team has. Joey isnt the type that you build a team around, but you need his skill on the team, much like Nash was, which we've won all of 2 playoff games since trading,so it wasnt a resounding success....meanwhile Nash has already been to the finals

They better plan on sticking with Torts long term because Joey is as good as gone pretty much as soon as possible, whether that's the teams choice or his.

Keep in mind that Torts has scratched Hartnell and Tyutin, but keeps a longer leash for younger guys like Golo and Wennberg, who had made major blunders during their games.

Also, singling out Johansen is important for the sole reason that Johansen is the best forward on this roster. If a guy like Calvert or Karlsson were underperforming, it doesn't impact the team as much as when Johansen is. Thus, the singling out is going to be more apparent.

 

[cslebn]

I'm impressed with the team structure. They look well coached. They're doing their jobs.

Why are they losing? Right now I'd say there just isn't much finish. If you look at the high danger scoring chances the last few games, the Jackets got just as many as the other clubs. My only question is whether the lack of finish is talent or just variance. I have to say guys like Saad and Foligno lead me to think there is a talent issue. Not enough finishing ability. But it's not a high priority problem for us.

The longer run problem is the D. Most decent D can play well defensively in Torts system. But there is no danger on the rush when the Jackets are coming out of their zone. Either the forwards are playing too low to help the D, in which case the other team can recover and play 3 men back forcing the Jackets to inevitably dump it in, which they always do. Or the passing from the back is just a bit off. Pittsburgh's new coach is making one big change and that's to stop having Crosby and Malkin help the D so much. Pittsburgh's D might be even worse than ours, so they tried having the centers loop down low on breakouts to help them out. It works defensively but kills the danger in the rush. I haven't noticed if our C's play as low as theirs did but it's something I'm curious about.

And as far as long run issues go, I'd say team passing is an issue. This is a dump and chase team that tries to outmuscle it's opponents. Good passing by the other club can completely dissarm the Jackets, making the muscle useless because you can't catch good passing. Dump and chase with no catch.

Our centers play very low. At times we end up with all 5 below our dots.

The team can get into very bad situations of puck chasing in our end and it often leads to goals.

 

[DarkandStormy]

As a team we're not scoring a whole lot but that's not because our big ticket forwards are doing so terribly. Hartnell, Jenner, and Atkinson are doing great. Saad and Dubinsky have been good enough. Foligno is on pace for ~40 points despite an abnormally low shooting percentage and that's taking its toll on Johansen's numbers IMO. What we're missing is scoring from the bottom 6 and from the defense. Our defense has scored 6 goals (JJ 3x, Murray 2x, Golobouf 1x) through 33 games. That's just god awful. Then there's the (rest of the) bottom 6 who has scored what? 11 goals?

No forward in the top 6 is seriously underperforming for their contract. You could argue Foligno is but he's just been snakebit with goals. He's still getting the assists and playing well defensively.

Not disagreeing about the top 5 guys producing, but to your point...there's just no depth production. No random goals from the 4th line every 2-3 games. Wennberg had a nice pass but he and Karlsson aren't producing much. Calvert has 4 I think? Saad has one goal in the last 14 games. Clarkson, Bourque...nothing. Campbell has 2. I mean, recently, we're good for a Hartnell or Atkinson goal and then basically praying for anything beyond that.

 

[CBJx614]

Keep in mind that Torts has scratched Hartnell and Tyutin, but keeps a longer leash for younger guys like Golo and Wennberg, who had made major blunders during their games.

Also, singling out Johansen is important for the sole reason that Johansen is the best forward on this roster. If a guy like Calvert or Karlsson were underperforming, it doesn't impact the team as much as when Johansen is. Thus, the singling out is going to be more apparent.

Didnt really see much wrong with Golo before his injury(not saying there wasnt some fine tuning needed) and he was definitely one of our best defenseman.

Wennberg and Tyutin are polar opposites. Wennberg was showing continual progress in his development. The points werent coming, but he was doing all the small things right. He had a bad game and seemingly was able to learn from it and came back with a pretty good game last night.

Tyutin was just playing TERRIBLE, absolutely nothing to show any kind of improvement. Hes also an older vet so just talking to him isnt going to have the same effect as it would on a young kid who is still under 100 games played in the NHL.

 

[CBJx614]

Not disagreeing about the top 5 guys producing, but to your point...there's just no depth production. No random goals from the 4th line every 2-3 games. Wennberg had a nice pass but he and Karlsson aren't producing much. Calvert has 4 I think? Saad has one goal in the last 14 games. Clarkson, Bourque...nothing. Campbell has 2. I mean, recently, we're good for a Hartnell or Atkinson goal and then basically praying for anything beyond that.

Wennberg had 1 pt in his first 15 games this season.

In his last 6 games he has 6 points. The Jackets in the last 6 games only have 14 pts.

We'll see if Wennbergs production continues. But he and Hartnell have had some serious chemistry lately and hopefully it isnt just a flash in the pan.

 

[BluejacketNut]

Keep in mind that Torts has scratched Hartnell and Tyutin, but keeps a longer leash for younger guys like Golo and Wennberg, who had made major blunders during their games.

Also, singling out Johansen is important for the sole reason that Johansen is the best forward on this roster. If a guy like Calvert or Karlsson were underperforming, it doesn't impact the team as much as when Johansen is. Thus, the singling out is going to be more apparent.

I understand why he did it, but for the type of player Joey has shown to be, its not going to fly...right or wrong. I had forgot about scratching Hartnell, but i think the benching is almost more embarrassing as youre sitting there on the bench. He will leave the first chance he has if he's not traded first, and in either case we're going to end up with nothing, or pennies on the dollar with no one else with that pedigree on the roster

 

[futurcorerock]

Didnt really see much wrong with Golo before his injury(not saying there wasnt some fine tuning needed) and he was definitely one of our best defenseman.

Wennberg and Tyutin are polar opposites. Wennberg was showing continual progress in his development. The points werent coming, but he was doing all the small things right. He had a bad game and seemingly was able to learn from it and came back with a pretty good game last night.

Tyutin was just playing TERRIBLE, absolutely nothing to show any kind of improvement. Hes also an older vet so just talking to him isnt going to have the same effect as it would on a young kid who is still under 100 games played in the NHL.

My comment is in reference to one of the massive blunders Golo had in one of Tortorella's first games when he finally drew in, and made a costly turnover. The Wennberg comment was in regards to the Tampa game, where some here sought fit to flay him for his turnovers. Both incidents are ones where Torts didn't bench them for their transgression.

The jist of my comment is: Younger guys are learning, need to make mistakes to get better. Older guys should know better and are punished appropriately, and the top-end talent gets the tough love because darnit, they are wasting all that god given talent playing like crap.

 

[CBJx614]

I understand why he did it, but for the type of player Joey has shown to be, its not going to fly...right or wrong. I had forgot about scratching Hartnell, but i think the benching is almost more embarrassing as youre sitting there on the bench. He will leave the first chance he has if he's not traded first, and in either case we're going to end up with nothing, or pennies on the dollar with no one else with that pedigree on the roster

 

[DarkandStormy]

Wennberg had 1 pt in his first 15 games this season.

In his last 6 games he has 6 points. The Jackets in the last 6 games only have 14 pts.

We'll see if Wennbergs production continues. But he and Hartnell have had some serious chemistry lately and hopefully it isnt just a flash in the pan.

This is true. Hartnell scoring is one of the few things we can count on offensively the last couple weeks.

 

[CBJx614]

My comment is in reference to one of the massive blunders Golo had in one of Tortorella's first games when he finally drew in, and made a costly turnover. The Wennberg comment was in regards to the Tampa game, where some here sought fit to flay him for his turnovers. Both incidents are ones where Torts didn't bench them for their transgression.

The jist of my comment is: Younger guys are learning, need to make mistakes to get better. Older guys should know better and are punished appropriately, and the top-end talent gets the tough love because darnit, they are wasting all that god given talent playing like crap.

I was definitely one of the ones who thought Wennberg should have seen some time on the bench that game, but it didnt happen. But im going to trust that Torts knows what needs to be done better than I and Wennberg played well after those mistakes and the next game.

But id agree with the rest. The problem with Joey IMO is Davidson and Jarmo pumped his wheels, inflated his ego and now he thinks his god given talent doesnt need any hard work to go with it. No passion, no fire.

 

[CBJx614]

This is true. Hartnell scoring is one of the few things we can count on offensively the last couple weeks.

A few seasons ago if you would have said we were going trade Umberger for somene who was going to be a leading goal scorer on our team straight up with players like Johansen, Saad, Foligno, Cam and Dubinsky on the roster I would have called you mental.

Hartnell has what 3 years left? If we can get one more good year out of him and a STEADY decline the last two I think we definitely without a question win the deal. As it would be really nice to get that money off the books next season(Umberger)

 

[JKinCLE]

Scotty will be gone at the TDL. Deservedly so. He deserves to play for a winner. He thought he was coming to one when he agreed to leave Philly. I'd say he goes to a contender for a 2nd and a B-prospect. As long as its not LA.

Can't imagine he wants to spend his golden years rebuilding under Torts.

 

[DarkandStormy]

A few seasons ago if you would have said we were going trade Umberger for somene who was going to be a leading goal scorer on our team straight up with players like Johansen, Saad, Foligno, Cam and Dubinsky on the roster I would have called you mental.

We did throw in a 4th so it wasn't quite straight up.

 

[Nordique]

The contracts GMJK have handed out are ridiculous. Foligno at $5.5? Dubi at $5.85? Saad at $6? Savard at $4.25? Sergei "I always have a groin injury" Bobrovsky at $7.425? That's so much wasted money. Not that they aren't good players, but we're overpaying massively (and with some fancy NMC/NTC's to boot) for guys who are not producing at their AAV level. I only include Bob because he always gets injured. Boll at $1.7 and Campbell at anything more than the minimum (he's at $1.5) is also ridiculous but they have less of an impact overall.

well said.

Ridiculous overpayment of the core of this team. If these guys are worth that money, they need to show it more oftens.