Movies: Star Wars: Rogue One Part II Release date Dec 14th

[Bryanbryoil]

You don't need to know anything more about them than what we got. You know where they were before this and you know why they're doing what they are.

Jyn is, of course, the daughter of the guy who designs the Death Star. Her motivation shifts from simply finding her father to righting his wrongs.

Cassian has been a rebel all his life and is simply devoted to the cause. Probably too devoted. His motivation does shift from blind loyalty to a loyalty both to Jyn and to the fulfillment of his devotion.

Bodhi is an Imperial pilot trying to square himself with his conscience.

Chirrut and Baze were guardians of the temple who see Jyn's cause as a continuation of their beliefs.

Those are the main characters. What more do you need than the knowledge of what I just laid out, which was patently laid out for us in the movie?

And these characters (most of them) will not be appearing in other Star Wars movies. Does anyone want to watch a prequel to this of Cassian and Saw?

It was done very well and you have to wonder if people didn't know before hand how their reaction would be.

I honestly was not paying attention and it's been some time (when I was young) that I really keyed in on Star Wars and I didn't even realize that he was CGI until I watched teh original Star Wars movie a few days later. I thought that the Leia CGI looked a little rough though TBH.

 

[Tawnos]

The biggest flaw with the characters is that they have informed attributes. We are told a number of the characters are a certain way at the start of the movie without being shown that they are that way, and then they "develop" into the way they are in the rest of the movie after a scene or two. It's lazy writing and bad storytelling, and definitely not character development when we are never shown that they act anywhere close to their original informed attributes. As the characters have no development and come off like stock archetypes, it's very difficult to care about them in any way and as such their deaths have no impact.

Show, don't tell. Unfortunately this is a common flaw with mediocre and bad movies.

No, sorry. You are flat out wrong except on Chirrut and Baze. We saw Cassian shoot the informant. We saw Bodhi's desire to make sure it's known that he defected. We saw Jyns reluctance to be involved. I don't understand what more you wanted.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Finally saw it and I really enjoyed it. I have always liked Star Wars and the angle I always come from when I watch the movies is that it is a sci fi soap opera.

As long as it's entertaining, has some good action, and tells a nice story I am always pleased with the movies.

 

[Tawnos]

And these characters (most of them) will not be appearing in other Star Wars movies. Does anyone want to watch a prequel to this of Cassian and Saw?

Regarding Cassian, I think we would've said the same thing about Han Solo if ANH was the only Star Wars movie.

As for Saw, his Clone Wars and Rebels episodes are great. Does this movie make you want to go watch them? Not really. But Saw also isn't a main character. I don't need a Mon Mothma or Admiral Raddus prequel either.

 

[Blender]

No, sorry. You are flat out wrong except on Chirrut and Baze. We saw Cassian shoot the informant. We saw Bodhi's desire to make sure it's known that he defected. We saw Jyns reluctance to be involved. I don't understand what more you wanted.

One scene of a character acting a certain way is an exception. It's inconsistent with how they act throughout the movie. Even with Jyn, we're told she is this hardened criminal who doesn't want to be involved, but is almost immediately trying to save people. They are cookie cutter heroes who have one scene and a tiny bit of dialogue to trick you into thinking you are seeing progression. It's lazy storytelling and isn't good characterization at all.

Compare Rogue One with Han Solo's transformation in ANH (and continued in ESB). Han Solo gradually develops throughout the movie, we are told and shown, in detail, how he is at the beginning and over the adventure with Luke he gradually comes around to how he is at the end of the movie. There is nothing gradual about any character in Rogue One, it's drastic, jarring, and inconsistent.

 

[McDNicks17]

You don't need to know anything more about them than what we got. You know where they were before this and you know why they're doing what they are.

Jyn is, of course, the daughter of the guy who designs the Death Star. Her motivation shifts from simply finding her father to righting his wrongs.

Cassian has been a rebel all his life and is simply devoted to the cause. Probably too devoted. His motivation does shift from blind loyalty to a loyalty both to Jyn and to the fulfillment of his devotion.

Bodhi is an Imperial pilot trying to square himself with his conscience.

Chirrut and Baze were guardians of the temple who see Jyn's cause as a continuation of their beliefs.

Those are the main characters. What more do you need than the knowledge of what I just laid out, which was patently laid out for us in the movie?

Like Blender said, my problem isn't not knowing who they are. It's how we were told.

A simple sentence or two was substituted in for actual character development. That was and would have been fine for a few of the lesser characters, but it seemed like it happened for every single character beyond Jyn and Cassian.


I think my main beef is with Saw. You would assume he would be kind of important considering he raised the lead the character and was used as a fairly major cog to continue the story, but his character was so incredibly shallow and pointless, to me.

 

[Blender]

Like Blender said, my problem isn't not knowing who they are, it's how we were told.

A simple sentence or two was substituted in for actual character development. That was and would have been fine for a few of the lesser characters, but it seemed like it happened for every single character beyond Jyn and Cassian.


I think my main beef is with Saw. You would assume he would be kind of important considering he raised the lead the character, but his character was so incredibly shallow and pointless, to me.

I don't even agree that Jyn and Cassian had true development. We weren't shown enough of their supposed attributes from the beginning to truly believe that is how they were. I assume that how they are in the second half/end is how they are typically, and the scene or two at the start of them acting different is the exception. If you don't establish your characters with enough consistency to support their informed attributes, it comes off either as those attributes being inaccurate, or the attributes being inaccurate and the character acting inconsistently to their norm.

Part of this is that they had too many shallow characters that they focused on (to sell merchandise I assume). If they had narrowed the focus to a couple important characters, it would have been easier to show a true progression in the running length of the movie.

 

[johnjm22]

Jyn's lame speech that she gives to the rebels is an example of how poorly her character arc is handled. It's forced, unnatural, and really cheesy (even for Star Wars). It was completely out of character from what we'd seen from her up until that point.

Also, she's really boring.

 

[McDNicks17]

I don't even agree that Jyn and Cassian had true development. We weren't shown enough of their supposed attributes from the beginning to truly believe that is how they were. I assume that how they are in the second half/end is how they are typically, and the scene or two at the start of them acting different is the exception. If you don't establish your characters with enough consistency to support their informed attributes, it comes off either as those attributes being inaccurate, or the attributes being inaccurate and the character acting inconsistently to their norm.

I definitely don't disagree.

They at least tried to show us who they were, but like you said, didn't do it very well.

Part of this is that they had too many shallow characters that they focused on (to sell merchandise I assume). If they had narrowed the focus to a couple important characters, it would have been easier to show a true progression in the running length of the movie.

Yup. That's what it comes down to for me as well.

I think they should have reduced the focus on Bodhi/Chirrut/Baze, cut Saw entirely and used that screen time to flesh out Jyn and Cassian.

It would have gone a long way in adding some actual substance to the story.

 

[Blender]

Jyn's lame speech that she gives to the rebels is an example of how poorly her character arc is handled. It's forced, unnatural, and really cheesy (even for Star Wars). It was completely out of character from what we'd seen from her up until that point.

Also, she's really boring.

What's wrong with the hardened, cynical criminal who supposedly wanted nothing to do with the Rebellion not that long ago giving the emotional speech about hope and optimism for the Rebellion?

Good example of what I meant, she was clearly never any of those things we are told she was when she is giving speeches like that so soon. It'd be like if Han Solo gave a Braveheart like speech before the Battle of Yavin.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

This video somewhat mirrors my issues with the characterization and how the action falls a little flat because of it.



Not to mention, does make a good argument as to why Vader had no reason to be in this movie other than straight up fan service. Then again, I imagine others will have a bone to pick with her analysis considering how divided the two sides are on these issues.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

I thought the character development was fine because my main focus on the movie were how the events unfolded on how they actually got the plans to the Death Star.

I can see how the criticisms are warranted with the corny speech but it was all secondary for me in my viewing. I personally cared more about the history of events and less about character backgrounds.

 

[Central PA Hawk Fan]

I thought the character development was fine because my main focus on the movie were how the events unfolded on how they actually got the plans to the Death Star.

I can see how the criticisms are warranted with the corny speech but it was all secondary for me in my viewing. I personally cared more about the history of events and less about character backgrounds.

Which is what was the point IMO. They have 2 and half hours to tell us how the death star plans got into the hands of Leia. I don't think fleshing out characters we're never going to see again warranted more time, but I guess I can see the POV that wanted more characterization. For me, it wasn't necessary, they were fleshed out enough to server the purpose of the story. I did think the Jyn speech was cheesy as all get out though.

 

[Central PA Hawk Fan]

It was done very well and you have to wonder if people didn't know before hand how their reaction would be.

My wife had no idea. In fact she kept mixing up Tarkin and Krennick, so unless you were looking intently on it, he looked like a real dude.

 

[Tawnos]

What's wrong with the hardened, cynical criminal who supposedly wanted nothing to do with the Rebellion not that long ago giving the emotional speech about hope and optimism for the Rebellion?

Good example of what I meant, she was clearly never any of those things we are told she was when she is giving speeches like that so soon. It'd be like if Han Solo gave a Braveheart like speech before the Battle of Yavin.

Jyn was part of Saws group before her criminality, which may have employed different methods, but had the same goals as the Rebel Alliance. She didn't want anything to do with the cause anymore because Saw abandoned her. She reconciles with the cause when she learns that Saw was trying to protect her. I learned this from simply paying attention to the movie.

Some of this is starting to remind me of the criticism of the lightsaber duel in TFA. The people who seem to have the biggest problem are the ones who seem to not fully understand what happened.

Frankly, I think a lot of it stems from trying to judge a movie that's been viewed once through the lens of films that have been around for over 30 years. Most of us have seen Star Wars movies several times, if not dozens or hundreds. Of course those characters are well-fleshed out to us.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Which is what was the point IMO. They have 2 and half hours to tell us how the death star plans got into the hands of Leia. I don't think fleshing out characters we're never going to see again warranted more time, but I guess I can see the POV that wanted more characterization. For me, it wasn't necessary, they were fleshed out enough to server the purpose of the story. I did think the Jyn speech was cheesy as all get out though.

Yeah I think we're in the same page in how we viewed the movie. Star Wars always has a little cheese it wasn't a big deal IMO.

Like I said before I view it as a sci fi soap opera that isn't going to be a masterpiece but is there to entertain you and tell a fun story. This movie accomplished that for me I really enjoyed it.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

The movie was fun, but also kinda boring and forced. The fact that the most excited that I got for it, was that I almost thought Peter Cushing was in the movie tells all

that and the fact that the most charismatic character in the movie was a reprogrammed imperial droid that i think was supposed to be comic relief

 

[Tawnos]

Yeah I think we're in the same page in how we viewed the movie. Star Wars always has a little cheese it wasn't a big deal IMO.

Like I said before I view it as a sci fi soap opera that isn't going to be a masterpiece but is there to entertain you and tell a fun story. This movie accomplished that for me I really enjoyed it.

Yeah. And you know what? The cheese only seems that way because it's so unrelentingly positive. In a time where a lot of stock is put into how dark a movie is, that can seem out of place. The truth is that this is how people who fight for a cause think and talk. There's 100% truth to the idea that rebellions are built on hope.

The movie isn't perfect by any stretch, but no Star Wars movie has ever been.

 

[Blender]

Jyn was part of Saws group before her criminality, which may have employed different methods, but had the same goals as the Rebel Alliance. She didn't want anything to do with the cause anymore because Saw abandoned her. She reconciles with the cause when she learns that Saw was trying to protect her. I learned this from simply paying attention to the movie.

Some of this is starting to remind me of the criticism of the lightSabre duel in TFA. The people who seem to have the biggest problem are the ones who seem to not fully understand what happened.

Frankly, I think a lot of it stems from trying to judge a movie that's been viewed once through the lens of films that have been around for over 30 years. Most of us have seen Star Wars movies several times, if not dozens or hundreds. Of course those characters are well-fleshed out to us.

Again though, she may have had these pro-Rebellion thoughts at one time, but because of the events that happened to her in her life we are told she has become a cynical, hardened criminal that doesn't trust anyone. People just don't suddenly change over night from that type of thought to how she acts through the rest of the movie. It's a jarring change that is given little in the way of time or development, just a single meeting with Saw and a hologram from her father, and suddenly her nature for half a decade is wiped out and she is all about hope and the goodness of man. That should have been the catalyst that started her off on her transformation/development. Instead she just instantly flipped a switch. That isn't natural and it's bad storytelling and characterization.

Trying to attack the people making the argument for "not understanding" instead of the actual argument being made is not a valid argument either, so stop with that.

Some people may be judging it based on 30 years of Star Wars, but what I'm saying is go re-watch ANH and compare the quality of character development. Han Solo at the start of the movie is selfish rogue who only cares about himself/Chewbacca and getting paid (similar to how Jyn is supposed to be). Through his ordeal with Luke in an effort to rescue Leia, he begins to become more selfless and caring for those around him. At the end it isn't a complete transformation (takes 3 movies for that), but it's a natural progression that is shown in stages. It's not jarring when Han swoops in and shoots Vader at the end because we've seen him develop throughout the movie, so it's a great payoff to end to his journey in the movie. If we had only see how he is in his first scene or two, and then he did was selfless all of a sudden because of a couple lines of dialogue, it'd be ridiculous and wouldn't feel natural at all.

This video somewhat mirrors my issues with the characterization and how the action falls a little flat because of it.



Not to mention, does make a good argument as to why Vader had no reason to be in this movie other than straight up fan service. Then again, I imagine others will have a bone to pick with her analysis considering how divided the two sides are on these issues.

Good video. I think she articulates a lot of my thoughts pretty well. It's an ok movie, but there is nothing special about it and there are many flaws in it.

 

[RandV]

Donnie Yen and Jiang Wen were already part of the cast of Rogue One several months before TFA was released.
http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-rogue-one-photo-cast-d23/

Okay fair enough, thanks for the correction

 

[RandV]

My wife had no idea. In fact she kept mixing up Tarkin and Krennick, so unless you were looking intently on it, he looked like a real dude.

Through the first half of the movie up until they brought him out and shot him I thought Krennick was Jyn's dad

All those parts where I suppose the actor was portraying ambition, I thought were just nerves over the risk of getting busted.

 

[V13]

Not me, I'm 100% sure the idea would be a slam dunk.

Vader has literally captured my imagination since I first saw him when I was six years old, and to this day, he's the only fictional movie character that has had that hold over me my entire life.

We have never really gotten to see why he is so feared... Just teases of his power in the original trilogy... that end scene in Rogue one is the first time we ever saw a full glimpse of Vader's power.

I want to see more of that... more than any wish I've ever had to see in any movie...

I literally waited for the two hours during Rogue One for those 45 seconds, then came home and looked for that scene on YT to watch another dozen times in a row...

There are tons of people who feel like I do, which is why he is the most popular and profitable character in the Star Wars universe.

It seems crazy not to capitalize on that when Disney bought Lucasfilms to make money, lots of money.

Don't know if you ever played the Force Unleashed but if you didn't do yourself a favor and do it. The first mission you play as Vader and annihilate dozens of wookies on your way to a temple. Personally this is the first time i really felt Vader power. You just smash and wreck everything without blinking an eye. It's awesome

TFU is no longer canon but since you are a big fan of Vader it's probably worth it for that first mission alone. It does represent Vader power well even if i said it's no longer canon

 

[johnjm22]

Plinkett makes a followup video to address the arguments against his criticisms of R1 from his last video.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I think RLM is going a bit too far, here.

I get the frustration considering people who comment on critical videos consistently miss the point of the critique, but still.

 

[Tawnos]

Again though, she may have had these pro-Rebellion thoughts at one time, but because of the events that happened to her in her life we are told she has become a cynical, hardened criminal that doesn't trust anyone. People just don't suddenly change over night from that type of thought to how she acts through the rest of the movie. It's a jarring change that is given little in the way of time or development, just a single meeting with Saw and a hologram from her father, and suddenly her nature for half a decade is wiped out and she is all about hope and the goodness of man. That should have been the catalyst that started her off on her transformation/development. Instead she just instantly flipped a switch. That isn't natural and it's bad storytelling and characterization.

Trying to attack the people making the argument for "not understanding" instead of the actual argument being made is not a valid argument either, so stop with that.

Some people may be judging it based on 30 years of Star Wars, but what I'm saying is go re-watch ANH and compare the quality of character development. Han Solo at the start of the movie is selfish rogue who only cares about himself/Chewbacca and getting paid (similar to how Jyn is supposed to be). Through his ordeal with Luke in an effort to rescue Leia, he begins to become more selfless and caring for those around him. At the end it isn't a complete transformation (takes 3 movies for that), but it's a natural progression that is shown in stages. It's not jarring when Han swoops in and shoots Vader at the end because we've seen him develop throughout the movie, so it's a great payoff to end to his journey in the movie. If we had only see how he is in his first scene or two, and then he did was selfless all of a sudden because of a couple lines of dialogue, it'd be ridiculous and wouldn't feel natural at all.

I think the level to which Jyn is portrayed as a "hardened criminal" by you and others is far overstated. She's a criminal and she's cynical at the start, but she doesn't come off as criminal as even Han does. That's because her crimes are of desperation.

It is natural for a person to get a sudden reminder of who they really are and act on it. Ive done it in my own life and I've seen others do it.