Movies: Star Wars: Rogue One Part II Release date Dec 14th

[Shareefruck]

Every movie has "flaws" in the way that anything that doesn't withstand intense scrutiny is quickly labelled a plothole.

Saying "great movie but not perfect" isn't saying anything at all.

I really enjoyed TFA and Rogue One and being told "yeah but they aren't perfect" by almost everyone, as if them finding these so-called "flaws" shows off some higher cognitivie capabilities due to hightened pattern recognition, is endlessly annoying.

Actually, now that I think about it, if they're using "great movie, but not perfect" in that subjectivity wrestling with objectivity way, then I agree on that point. I would find that stupid.

But I do get this weird impression that you're doing this odd thing where because you enjoyed it, you're assuming/suggesting that others who say "yeah but they aren't perfect" had a similar experience to you but are now forcing objective flaws down your throat or something. It seems like it's just a difference of agreement about how good it actually was, but I guess we'd need to look at specific examples of what you're actually complaining about to know what you mean. I guess I'm just not following your actual argument.

Personally, I did feel that it was a deeply flawed movie-- And I mean that in the sense that there were numerous things about it that actively annoyed me and dampened my experience. There were some things that I liked a fair bit as well (which is more than I can say about The Force Awakens, which was just a completely forgettable popcorn movie to me), but a decent chunk of the experience was negative for me, despite enjoying a slab of it.

Given that, commendable but flawed effort sounds like a perfectly accurate way of putting it, to me. And I don't know where that "everything is flawed" thing comes from, because I don't see it that way. I also don't see how "cognitive superiority" can be assumed to be feigned just because someone didn't like those flaws.

I certainly think that things need to hold up to some type of scrutiny to be great. Whether or not the specific type of scrutiny is reasonable is where the difficulty is. But I don't know why we're assuming that the kind of scrutiny it's getting is unreasonable-- is it just because you didn't have a problem with them?

 

[BonMorrison]

As ridiculous as it sounds the Asian characters are placed in to draw audiences in china.

Or maybe because representation is important and we haven't had any significant Asian characters in the SW universe up to this point.

I thought they were fine characters tbh, a bit shallow, but fine.

The fact that I know there are Asian kids (already seen this first hand in my fam) who saw those characters and got excited that they saw people that looked like them and wanted their toys and wanted to know more about the actors and where they came from is so important so I'm cool with it.

 

[Shareefruck]

Or maybe because representation is important and we haven't had any significant Asian characters in the SW universe up to this point.

I thought they were fine characters tbh, a bit shallow, but fine.

The fact that I know there are Asian kids (already seen this first hand in my fam) who saw those characters and got excited that they saw people that looked like them and wanted their toys and wanted to know more about the actors and where they came from is so important so I'm cool with it.

Personally, I find the idea of shoe-horning imported Asian stars into unnecessary roles that don't fit just to be inclusive to certain demographics is the wrong way to go about being progressive, but that's just me.

 

[BonMorrison]

Personally, I find the idea of shoe-horning imported Asian stars into unnecessary roles that don't fit just to be inclusive to certain demographics is the wrong way to go about being progressive, but that's just me.

As I said in my post I didn't find them unnecessary at all so I can't really respond to the rest of that without going more off topic.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Or maybe because representation is important and we haven't had any significant Asian characters in the SW universe up to this point.

I thought they were fine characters tbh, a bit shallow, but fine.

The fact that I know there are Asian kids (already seen this first hand in my fam) who saw those characters and got excited that they saw people that looked like them and wanted their toys and wanted to know more about the actors and where they came from is so important so I'm cool with it.

I found them more far more likable than Cassian TBH. Cassian and Fin are the 2 main characters in the last 2 movies that I am not a fan of. Fin because he was annoying to me and Cassian because he was very bland as a lead actor. I quite enjoyed the Asian duo's performances in this movie.

 

[Shareefruck]

As I said in my post I didn't find them unnecessary at all so I can't really respond to the rest of that without going more off topic.

Yep, I know, just looking at it from the other direction and couldn't help but comment. The shoehorned ethnic diversity thing in Star Wars is so blatant that it's hard for me not to roll eyes at it.

I did find Whitaker worse than either of them.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

As I said in my post I didn't find them unnecessary at all so I can't really respond to the rest of that without going more off topic.

Had the story just had Jynn, K2SO and Cassian as the main characters I wouldn't have been a fan of one of them off the hop. The pilot could've gotten more screen time but he played a big role later on in the movie. Cassian was just boring while the martial arts guy that believed in the force was funny and added the force element to the group. The other guy was muscle, plain and simple, he was a heavy hitter with his weapons and his interactions with the force guy were funny and came across as genuine.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Yep, I know, just looking at it from the other direction.

I did find Whitaker worse than either of them.

His part was awful.

 

[BonMorrison]

The shoehorned ethnic diversity thing in Star Wars is so blatant that it's hard for me not to roll eyes at

Breaks my heart a bit that you feel that way as I know you're also a POC but whatever, not gonna argue about this at 4am on Christmas.

 

[Shareefruck]

Breaks my heart a bit that you feel that way as I know you're also a POC but whatever, not gonna argue about this at 4am on Christmas.

Had to look up POC, fearing the worst. In the spirit of Festivus, I'm going to leave a comment anyways, because it's an interesting thing to think about.

Admittedly, some of it is that it conflicts with my interest in the idea of unfiltered/uncompromised artistic integrity (which, justified or not is something that I unquestionably have a stronger passion for). Social progress and equality of opportunity are important and the scales are definitely tipped in an unjust direction right now, but when I get the feeling that the push-back is blatantly forced and artificial/inorganic (it's VERY difficult not to think that's the case in recent Star Wars movies), it ends up feeling like its own well-meaning brand of crookedness unworthy of that expense or cause to me, in principle. I think it's conceivable that your way might have positive results that could justify the (in my opinion, problematic) means (although I remain unconvinced of that), but I've always been more of a sometimes irrationally stubborn principle-driven guy than a consequentialist anyways.

The argument for why it's necessary also doesn't entirely make sense to me. If deliberately presenting something in as much of a racially diverse way as humanly possible is met with support and is proven not to hurt your success, and you have the power to make that decision, then doesn't that suggest that you would also be able to get away with doing it organically without fear of non-acceptance/failure due to prejudice (and consequently, be able to make the same progress that you want to make anyways without arming the opposition with totally justified critical ammunition)? Why is there still a need to take shortcuts and cheat?

 

[Tawnos]

Wait, what? A large chunk of the movie is presented from their point of view, and they are an essential part of the plot on a number of occasions. It's not really comparable to the dead weight in Rogue One.

The central plot of ANH is to leverage Obi Wan's help to get the Death Star plans to rebel headquarters. That could have happened in any number of ways, not requiring the droids at all.

The point isn't to diminish the role they played. The opposite in fact. I'm saying that, just because you could shed characters without affecting the central plot doesn't mean doing so makes for a better movie.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

But that is regarding the fact we have characters who serve very little narrative or entertainment purpose in the movie. Saw Gerrera does nothing and everything leading up to him meeting Jyn again then dying like a jerk is an unnecessary detour. Galling gun man does nothing and serves no purpose other than being the sidekick for blind man. The pilot probably serves the most purpose of the three, but is just there for exposition and sometimes plot.

Remove two of those three and you can better flesh out the other wooden characters. A New Hope doesn't have that problem so we don't think about scrapping certain characters.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Actually, now that I think about it, if they're using "great movie, but not perfect" in that subjectivity wrestling with objectivity way, then I agree on that point. I would find that stupid.

But I do get this weird impression that you're doing this odd thing where because you enjoyed it, you're assuming/suggesting that others who say "yeah but they aren't perfect" had a similar experience to you but are now forcing objective flaws down your throat or something. It seems like it's just a difference of agreement about how good it actually was, but I guess we'd need to look at specific examples of what you're actually complaining about to know what you mean. I guess I'm just not following your actual argument.

Personally, I did feel that it was a deeply flawed movie-- And I mean that in the sense that there were numerous things about it that actively annoyed me and dampened my experience. There were some things that I liked a fair bit as well (which is more than I can say about The Force Awakens, which was just a completely forgettable popcorn movie to me), but a decent chunk of the experience was negative for me, despite enjoying a slab of it.

Given that, commendable but flawed effort sounds like a perfectly accurate way of putting it, to me. And I don't know where that "everything is flawed" thing comes from, because I don't see it that way. I also don't see how "cognitive superiority" can be assumed to be feigned just because someone didn't like those flaws.

I certainly think that things need to hold up to some type of scrutiny to be great. Whether or not the specific type of scrutiny is reasonable is where the difficulty is. But I don't know why we're assuming that the kind of scrutiny it's getting is unreasonable-- is it just because you didn't have a problem with them?

Both TFA and this movie are very generic blockbuster films. They just happen to be part of a franchise that has stayed relevant for the last 30+ years.

They are fun movies and nothing else. I just have never seen the amount of vapid criticism thrown at them, but I suppose that says more about the franchise than those emitting those thoughts.

 

[Tawnos]

But that is regarding the fact we have characters who serve very little narrative or entertainment purpose in the movie. Saw Gerrera does nothing and everything leading up to him meeting Jyn again then dying like a jerk is an unnecessary detour. Galling gun man does nothing and serves no purpose other than being the sidekick for blind man. The pilot probably serves the most purpose of the three, but is just there for exposition and sometimes plot.

Remove two of those three and you can better flesh out the other wooden characters. A New Hope doesn't have that problem so we don't think about scrapping certain characters.

Aside from rescuing the main protagonist as a child and being clearly someone her parents trust, plus raising her. He does nothing. Sure. If you're going to criticize a movie, show you at least understand what takes place. Granted, I didn't think his death was necessary either. He could've gotten out. But to what end? That was the point.

His role in the movie is so much better with the context of the TV shows, which of course we don't get just seeing the movie.

But there again, I think this misses part of the reality of this movie. It doesn't work as a standalone film in much the same way that season 2 episode 8 of Game of Thrones also doesn't work as something to watch on its own. None of these "standalone" movies are going to.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I understood what took place, don't be condescending.

What do we lose in the story if he is cut out and she instead has to fend for herself till she reaches adulthood? What character is Saw Gerrera that benefits the movie by keeping him?

And a movie should not need to rely on other material (books/comics/etc) to work. Game of Thrones doesn't need the book in order to work. That is a cop-out.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Or maybe because representation is important and we haven't had any significant Asian characters in the SW universe up to this point.

I thought they were fine characters tbh, a bit shallow, but fine.

The fact that I know there are Asian kids (already seen this first hand in my fam) who saw those characters and got excited that they saw people that looked like them and wanted their toys and wanted to know more about the actors and where they came from is so important so I'm cool with it.

Well, you had these guys....

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I understood what took place, don't be condescending.

What do we lose in the story if he is cut out and she instead has to fend for herself till she reaches adulthood? What character is Saw Gerrera that benefits the movie by keeping him?

And a movie should not need to rely on other material (books/comics/etc) to work. Game of Thrones doesn't need the book in order to be entertaining. That is a cop-out.

WUT?! The most entertaining moments on that show are carried by the exact same dialogue from the books.

Saw Gerrera was a character the movie could have done without, but him being in it doesn't ruin the movie either. People are over-analyzing this movie

 

[BonMorrison]

Well, you had these guys....

god almighty I totally spaced on that racist trash.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

WUT?! The most entertaining moments on that show are carried by the exact same dialogue from the books.

He means you don't have to read the books to understand the show.

 

[Tawnos]

I understood what took place, don't be condescending.

What do we lose in the story if he is cut out and she instead has to fend for herself till she reaches adulthood? What character is Saw Gerrera that benefits the movie by keeping him?

And a movie should not need to rely on other material (books/comics/etc) to work. Game of Thrones doesn't need the book in order to work. That is a cop-out.

The difference between this and say Rey in TFA is that this movie is as much about Galen and his revenge as it is about Jyn. Saw Gerrera is the link between Jyn and her father. You lose him and you have a character who has essentially zero connection to her father. Someone who isn't going to risk everything to get to him. And you not understanding that is exactly what I'm talking about. I shouldn't have to explain something like that to someone thinking enough about this movie to criticize it the way you are.

Any movie in a broader, already existing universe relies on other material. Besides, I was saying that knowing his backstory enhances his role here, not that it's required.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

The difference between this and say Rey in TFA is that this movie is as much about Galen and his revenge as it is about Jyn. Saw Gerrera is the link between Jyn and her father. You lose him and you have a character who has essentially zero connection to her father. Someone who isn't going to risk everything to get to him. And you not understanding that is exactly what I'm talking about. I shouldn't have to explain something like that to someone thinking enough about this movie to criticize it the way you are.

You are telling me you needed a middleman for Jyn to have a connection to her father? There is no way a writer could generate something that gives them a connection?

If Saw Gerrera has a character and a more significant role in the film (instead of just getting them to the next point in the story) then it isn't a problem. Just like we don't think about changing how Obi Wan gets the Death Star plans because the means by which he gets them feature actual characters.

 

[Blender]

The central plot of ANH is to leverage Obi Wan's help to get the Death Star plans to rebel headquarters. That could have happened in any number of ways, not requiring the droids at all.

The point isn't to diminish the role they played. The opposite in fact. I'm saying that, just because you could shed characters without affecting the central plot doesn't mean doing so makes for a better movie.

Most of the movie is actually presented form their point of view. ANH, TMP, and TFA all borrow heavily from a Kurosawa movie called The Hidden Fortress, which is told from the point of view of two lowly peasants. Lucas borrowed a ton of plot elements from that movie and also the point of telling the story from two lowly characters (C3PO and R2-D2 in the case of ANH). He has given interviews where he discusses that they are the cog to the entire plot and story.

 

[Tawnos]

You are telling me you needed a middleman for Jyn to have a connection to her father? There is no way a writer could generate something that gives them a connection?

If Saw Gerrera has a character and a more significant role in the film (instead of just getting them to the next point in the story) then it isn't a problem. Just like we don't think about changing how Obi Wan gets the Death Star plans because the means by which he gets them feature actual characters.

And the only way Jyn gets the message from Galen is through Saw...

And yeah. I'm sorry. Someone who loses their father as a very young child isn't going to have a such a strong connection to him that she's going to risk life and limb to get to him when he's in trouble. Not unless someone reinforces who that person is and how much he cares for her, even from afar. Her actions would be far less believable without Saws role in her life.

So again, his role in the movie wasn't "just getting them to the next point."

 

[V13]

I found them more far more likable than Cassian TBH. Cassian and Fin are the 2 main characters in the last 2 movies that I am not a fan of. Fin because he was annoying to me and Cassian because he was very bland as a lead actor. I quite enjoyed the Asian duo's performances in this movie.

Finn annoyed me too. Remembered me of Shia Leboeuf in transformers. By that i mean that he act like a squirrel who has drank a pack of red bulls. Fast talking and hypernervous with lame attempts at humor. Can't stand those types of characters.

Cassian , even though he lacked character development , felt more mature and much less annoying. In fact i found to main cast of Rogue One to be better than TFA. I prefered Jyn to Rey as well but this could change depending on what they do with Rey in VIII and IX.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

And the only way Jyn gets the message from Galen is through Saw...

And yeah. I'm sorry. Someone who loses their father as a very young child isn't going to have a such a strong connection to him that she's going to risk life and limb to get to him when he's in trouble. Not unless someone reinforces who that person is and how much he cares for her, even from afar. Her actions would be far less believable without Saws role in her life.

So again, his role in the movie wasn't "just getting them to the next point."

Agreed with all of this.