Online Series: Star Trek: Discovery - III - Spock's Beard

[The Nemesis]

You're the worst Klingon ever, Tyler.

 

[The Nemesis]

As much as I haven't liked everything about hipster Spock, I'd still rather watch him, Pike, and Rebecca Romijn Number One on the pre-Kirk Enterprise over this nonsense. Hell, they could even take Saru with them.

 

[Jussi]

Why would eeeevil Georgiou refer to the regular trek universe (ie the one this show and all others are taking place in) as "the prime universe."? It's not her prime universe. "prime" is a relative term that she shouldn't be using in that fashion.

Universe

 

[The Nemesis]

Universe

Come on. I think I know what a "universe" is.

The point I'm making is that "prime" means first or of greatest importance. It's a relativistic term. The "prime" universe from our perspective is the regular Trek universe that Discovery takes place in because it's the most important one. It's the one that encompasses all the series and the pre-Abrams movies. The mirror univese or the Abrams-verse are treated as "alternate" universes because our frame of reference is entirely based off the standard Trek universe as its central point.

But for Eeeeevil Georgiou, the most prominent universe to her would be one she came from (what is, to us and the various Trek show crews, the "mirror" universe.). It would make sense for her to call the main universe the "prime" universe if she's doing it to continue to dupe people into thinking she's the same Georgiou who died in the pilot episode, but when she said it in the last episode she was saying to to someone while admitting/acknowledging that she's from the mirror universe. After spending 50 years growing up and living in her own universe, calling the main universe "the prime universe" sounds dumb because her entire frame of reference would be built around the universe she came from. That would be her prime universe and "our" universe would be the mirror/alternate one.

 

[Blender]

Watching @The Nemesis reaction to this train wreck was good for a laugh.

 

[The Nemesis]

Watching @The Nemesis reaction to this train wreck was good for a laugh.

If I'm going to be frustrated by watching something, I'm going to have fun with it.

You should've seen me when I watched a bunch of awful Transformers anime series from Japan at like 2 in the morning a year ago. I was doing a blow-by-blow watch-along sort of set of posts in the Transformers thread we have on HF and I was having none of that show's ****. None of it. It makes my carping about Discovery look tame by comparison. I imagine the sleep deprivation helped. I'll bet my Discovery reactions would "benefit" if I was watching the show in the middle of the night instead of sleeping.

 

[Cloned]

Spoiler

I do like what they’ve done to fill in the canon gaps with Pike’s character history. He’s such a tragic hero now, making the ultimate sacrifice.

 

[Cloned]

Spoiler

Also, there is a rumour that in the season finale, the ship will be transported to the 28th century, and that Season 3 (at least) will take place in that time period. I believe the 28th century is when Future Guy is from (from Enterprise).

 

[The Nemesis]

Spoiler

Also, there is a rumour that in the season finale, the ship will be transported to the 28th century, and that Season 3 (at least) will take place in that time period. I believe the 28th century is when Future Guy is from (from Enterprise).

Spoiler

I would be shocked if this happened. The Temporal Cold War became such a distant, convoluted, ignored mess that the Enterprise writers room just dropped the angle out of basically nowhere because there was nothing else to do with it. If this show is picking the discarded bones of plotlines that were too inept for Enterprise, we're in trouble. Well, more trouble.

 

[Cloned]

Spoiler

I would be shocked if this happened. The Temporal Cold War became such a distant, convoluted, ignored mess that the Enterprise writers room just dropped the angle out of basically nowhere because there was nothing else to do with it. If this show is picking the discarded bones of plotlines that were too inept for Enterprise, we're in trouble. Well, more trouble.

Spoiler

The TCW is my speculation, but the time jump to the 28th century is apparently pretty well proven.

 

[Jussi]

Well now we know what happened to Pike.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

I thought the Pike scene was sensational. My favorite episode this season was "If Memory Serves" and everything regarding Pike was close to that episode.

I've been noticing it for a while but my biggest problem with Discovery right now is probably Burnham herself. Everything in this universe revolves around her, she doesn't revolve around the universe. The red Suit, her mother. The Signals, probably her. Control even says Burnham is standing in front of their plans. I don't think I've seen a show where everything that happens in said show revolves around one character, leaving the other characters pretty much pointless. The scenes with them eating in the mess hall, or Stamets and Culber are so short because we have to go back to seeing what Burnham is up to and what she dictates to the universe. I get SMG is the star of the show, but considering this show needs to compare to other current great shows and those shows are more ensamble than having one character being the center of attention, it just doesn't compare.

With that said, I'm still enjoying this season, even though everything having to do with Control is confusing and Section 31 is just standing in the way. Pike resembles what is great about Star Trek. Burnham leads me to remind myself I'm still watching a Star Trek series.

 

[The Nemesis]

I thought the Pike scene was sensational. My favorite episode this season was "If Memory Serves" and everything regarding Pike was close to that episode.

I've been noticing it for a while but my biggest problem with Discovery right now is probably Burnham herself. Everything in this universe revolves around her, she doesn't revolve around the universe. The red Suit, her mother. The Signals, probably her. Control even says Burnham is standing in front of their plans. I don't think I've seen a show where everything that happens in said show revolves around one character, leaving the other characters pretty much pointless. The scenes with them eating in the mess hall, or Stamets and Culber are so short because we have to go back to seeing what Burnham is up to and what she dictates to the universe. I get SMG is the star of the show, but considering this show needs to compare to other current great shows and those shows are more ensamble than having one character being the center of attention, it just doesn't compare.

With that said, I'm still enjoying this season, even though everything having to do with Control is confusing and Section 31 is just standing in the way. Pike resembles what is great about Star Trek. Burnham leads me to remind myself I'm still watching a Star Trek series.

This is what me and a bunch of others have complained about: the Discovery universe feels small. Everything relates to a few central points. Everything ties to something else. So much of the central plot being inexorably linked to Burnham in a specific and tangible way. Hell, this episode even does it when they beam the guy out of space and out of the apparent hundreds of crew it turns out he's someone Burnahm knows. Like they felt that the moment and its subsequent outcomes only had emotional weight if the rescue was someone that Michael herself personally knows instead of it being a random crew member. It's a cheap and lazy way to try and peddle drama and emotion without having to put in real work building it from nothing and by the resolution actually makes less sense than if he had been some rando.

I was explaining this to someone with a TNG example: Imagine if everything on the show had to be personally tied to Picard. Q actually went back in time and is Picard's ancestor from millennia ago, and Wesley is actually his son from an illicit affair with Beverly when Jack Crusher was stationed on the Stargazer, and he was part of the crew that found Data and activated him, and he saved Geordi's life in a shuttle accident while Geordi was in the academy and Picard was a guest instructor, and he vouched for Worf's entry into Starfleet, and so forth.

 

[Blender]

Best part of the episode was the Pike stuff, rest of it was pretty bad. I think that was the worst episode of the season, and the overall plot is completely nonsensical at this point.

Also, if you need to show a flashback in the episode to remind you of who someone is, there is no reason they should have been brought back.

 

[The Nemesis]

Also jesus christ everything is so dark. I don't mean thematically dark. I mean literally, design-wise.

It's like, does nobody remember that all the other series were fairly brightly lit? Even DS9.

 

[Blender]

Also jesus christ everything is so dark. I don't mean thematically dark. I mean literally, design-wise.

It's like, does nobody remember that all the other series were fairly brightly lit? Even DS9.

The worst part as far as lighting goes was the phaser fight. It was like pitch black except for the bright flashes from the things exploding due to the phaser hits.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

This is what me and a bunch of others have complained about: the Discovery universe feels small. Everything relates to a few central points. Everything ties to something else. So much of the central plot being inexorably linked to Burnham in a specific and tangible way. Hell, this episode even does it when they beam the guy out of space and out of the apparent hundreds of crew it turns out he's someone Burnahm knows.

I rolled my eyes at this part. This is what made the episode predictable. You mean to tell me that all these bodies floating in space and the one that is still alive is someone Burnham knows. Not only that, but the revelation that Control planned for Burnham to be there like it was some sort of predestination paradox seemed really fishy.

I know this is before the original series, but where are the diverse alien races. Where is the Federation. Why isn't there an Andorian crew member. I know people hate comparing Orville to Discovery, but at least Orville has been very diverse in it's alien races, from dudes with big heads to alien blobs. The Discovery Universe does feel small, which is a shame because the reason I loved TNG and DS9 so much was they expanded on the universe that Star Trek started and it felt really organic and expansive. Speaking of that, My favorite sci fi series these days is The Expanse, and the reason why is they have done such an excellent job building it's universe (very diverse) in such a short time. Discovery should be modeling The Expanse on how to actually tell a big story.

 

[Osprey]

Spoiler

Also, there is a rumour that in the season finale, the ship will be transported to the 28th century, and that Season 3 (at least) will take place in that time period. I believe the 28th century is when Future Guy is from (from Enterprise).

Spoiler

I'm inclined to believe that rumor, since the Discovery self destructing (if they go along with it) means that the crew will need to go somewhere and they're now in possession of a time crystal that's probably going to be used for something. Also, it lines up with this being Pike's only season on the show, because, for canon continuity's sake, the writers couldn't have him traveling through time with Burnham and crew, so it's a convenient excuse to separate them, leaving him behind to his Enterprise and eventual fate.

 

[Osprey]

I was explaining this to someone with a TNG example: Imagine if everything on the show had to be personally tied to Picard. Q actually went back in time and is Picard's ancestor from millennia ago, and Wesley is actually his son from an illicit affair with Beverly when Jack Crusher was stationed on the Stargazer, and he was part of the crew that found Data and activated him, and he saved Geordi's life in a shuttle accident while Geordi was in the academy and Picard was a guest instructor, and he vouched for Worf's entry into Starfleet, and so forth.

That really hits the nail on the head and the scary thing is that we're likely to see something very much like that in the upcoming Picard series, if the writers are anything like Discovery's writers. After all, Stewart is clearly the star of the show (not part of an ensemble, like in TNG) and I seem to recall that they can't legally use any of the other TNG characters, so it's really going to be a one-man show that revolves around Picard. On top of that, we're told that it's going to be a "different" Picard, probably one plagued by regrets and demons from his past, so he might not even be the likable character that made certain TNG episodes and movies revolving around him tolerable.

That's the other side of the coin here. It's not just that Discovery revolves around Burnham. It's also that she's so unlikable. I gritted my teeth last night when she outright challenged Pike's plan in front of other officers... and, on top of that, Pike not only took no offense; he also welcomed her alternative. Something like that took place twice in the episode. It really made Pike look like a weak puppet Captain who relies on Burnham to command the ship from the backseat. I have no doubt that, if she had been there when he was deciding on whether to take the crystal, he would've turned to Burnham for helping making his decision and she would've been happy to decide his fate for him. Maybe that's partly why we all agree that that scene was one of the best in the episode: Pike actually made a decision for himself for once without being told what to do by Burnham.

 

[The Nemesis]

That really hits the nail on the head and the scary thing is that we're likely to see something very much like that in the upcoming Picard series, if the writers are anything like Discovery's writers. After all, Stewart is clearly the star of the show (not part of an ensemble, like in TNG) and I seem to recall that they can't legally use any of the other TNG characters, so it's really going to be a one-man show that revolves around Picard. On top of that, we're told that it's going to be a "different" Picard, probably one plagued by regrets and demons from his past, so he might not even be the likable character that made certain TNG episodes and movies revolving around him tolerable.

That's the other side of the coin here. It's not just that Discovery revolves around Burnham. It's also that she's so unlikable. I gritted my teeth last night when she outright challenged Pike's plan in front of other officers... and, on top of that, Pike not only took no offense; he also welcomed her alternative. Something like that took place twice in the episode. It really made Pike look like a weak puppet Captain who relies on Burnham to command the ship from the backseat. I have no doubt that, if she had been there when he was deciding on whether to take the crystal, he would've turned to Burnham for helping making his decision and she would've been happy to decide his fate for him. Maybe that's partly why we all agree that that scene was one of the best in the episode: Pike actually made a decision for himself for once without being told what to do by Burnham.

It's not just that she challenged the plan. That's long-established as being part of the job of the first officer. The real problem is that she challenges his plan in the most assholeish way possible. She cuts his legs out from under him by sounding like a condescending jerk with her "what are you, stupid? This is a waste of time and you're an idiot for being OK with doing so." attitude. In other series they have instances where a subordinate challenges their commanding officer, but usually they get called on the carpet for it, stating that even if they're right, you can't just go and emasculate your superior in front of the rest of the crew like that. But Burnham is super special awesome and perfect so she gets a pass even if she is a dick to Pike.

 

[Osprey]

It's not just that she challenged the plan. That's long-established as being part of the job of the first officer. The real problem is that she challenges his plan in the most *******ish way possible. She cuts his legs out from under him by sounding like a condescending jerk with her "what are you, stupid? This is a waste of time and you're an idiot for being OK with doing so." attitude. In other series they have instances where a subordinate challenges their commanding officer, but usually they get called on the carpet for it, stating that even if they're right, you can't just go and emasculate your superior in front of the rest of the crew like that. But Burnham is super special awesome and perfect so she gets a pass even if she is a dick to Pike.

That's what I mean by "challenge." One of its meanings is "to confront or defy boldly." I know that it can also have a more positive meaning (as in supporting someone by encouraging good habits), but I tend to use it to describe addressing someone in a somewhat disrespectful, impolite and aggressive manner. Because of that, I don't personally consider past Number Ones offering their unsolicited alternative opinions in front of the rest of the crew to have amounted to "challenging" their captains, but it's just semantics. What matters is that we're in agreement that how she's doing it is unusual and improper.

 

[Cloned]

Spoiler

I'm inclined to believe that rumor, since the Discovery self destructing (if they go along with it) means that the crew will need to go somewhere and they're now in possession of a time crystal that's probably going to be used for something. Also, it lines up with this being Pike's only season on the show, because, for canon continuity's sake, the writers couldn't have him traveling through time with Burnham and crew, so it's a convenient excuse to separate them, leaving him behind to his Enterprise and eventual fate.

I agree.

Also, I will say that this episode changes the way you watch The Menagerie. Pike’s resigned attitude and responses in that episode suddenly make near perfect sense now.

Being able to enhance previous canon is a decent accomplishment for a writing team that has at times seemed lost this season.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

I agree.

Also, I will say that this episode changes the way you watch The Menagerie. Pike’s resigned attitude and responses in that episode suddenly make near perfect sense now.

Being able to enhance previous canon is a decent accomplishment for a writing team that has at times seemed lost this season.

Like I said up thread, that scene and If Memory Serves are the two best thing Discovery has done, probably in it's entire series run. It's enhancing what came before. Now whenever I watch Cage and Menagerie, I will look at them in a different light. Heck, seeing Pike in the chair was kind of terrifying.

With that said I wish Trek would either move forward or cover the time between The Undiscovered Country and TNG, which was quite a bit of time that has been left undone. Of course being a fan of TNG and DS9, I want the Cardassians to return and actually show first contract with that race. Heck, get a younger Obrian and portray the Setlick 3 incident.

 

[The Nemesis]

Compare that to the way Burnham gets validated for the way she acts like a total prick to Pike (or did to Lorca, or Saru when he was in charge briefly, or hell, even the real/prime Georgiou.)

 

[peate]

Compare that to the way Burnham gets validated for the way she acts like a total prick to Pike (or did to Lorca, or Saru when he was in charge briefly, or hell, even the real/prime Georgiou.)

Love the way he straightens his jacket at the end.