Stamkos is cooked

[Fatass]

Stamkos and Nashville both did their part to set this whole thing up for failure.

Was obviously going to happen for everyone not named Trotz.

Imagine being a guy who made 100 million playing hockey and still chasing the money instead of finishing out a great career in a great situation in Tampa as a secondary veteran piece. Hope the tarnish was worth the zero change in your life for the little extra money, Stammer.

True. But didn’t signing Stamkos stimulate interest in their market?

 

[NVious]

Will fans show up if the club signals they are rebuilding?

I'd argue this product is worse than a rebuild product as at least a rebuild is filled with optimism that your young players will turn into something special. The odds of winning a cup might be small, but they exist. The current core has 0% chance at winning the cup AND if they "stick with them" then you're just extending that 0% unnecessarily into another 2-4 years of futility and THEN rebuilding.

There's no choice IMO.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I was reluctant to comment on this because sometimes a player takes time to adjust to a new system but wow. We're 60 games in now. 17 goals and none in his last 13 games.

This could be a very painful 4 x $8m.

 

[BraveCanadian]

True. But didn’t signing Stamkos stimulate interest in their market?

No.

 

[Fatass]

No.

If that’s the case, then is there any path Nashville can take that creates interest? Signing Stamkos was big news across the league.

I'd argue this product is worse than a rebuild product as at least a rebuild is filled with optimism that your young players will turn into something special. The odds of winning a cup might be small, but they exist. The current core has 0% chance at winning the cup AND if they "stick with them" then you're just extending that 0% unnecessarily into another 2-4 years of futility and THEN rebuilding.

There's no choice IMO.

I don’t disagree. My point is a market like Nashville requires winning and signing big name UFA’s to keep interest. A deep diving rebuild will see an empty rink.

 

[Cas]

I don’t disagree. My point is a market like Nashville requires winning and signing big name UFA’s to keep interest. A deep diving rebuild will see an empty rink.

Sometimes fate makes the decision for you. That's what happened to the Sharks - there was no salvaging the 2020 team, and after three years of denial and hopeless flailing, they finally fired Wilson and committed to a rebuild.

You can have an empty rink because you're bad, or an empty rink because you're rebuilding.

 

[NVious]

If that’s the case, then is there any path Nashville can take that creates interest? Signing Stamkos was big news across the league.


I don’t disagree. My point is a market like Nashville requires winning and signing big name UFA’s to keep interest. A deep diving rebuild will see an empty rink.

Nashville survived their awful start to a franchise, I give the fans credit. Obviously a downturn and lull happens when anybody is bad (maybe outside of the best markets in the NHL), but they'll be back.

Personally as a fan I hate the delusions of an old/withered core with 0% chance to go anywhere being brought back again and again. As soon as you see they're not even close to contenders, it's time to sell.

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

Pitt says no to team old center by taking Stamkos for Karlsson right?

 

[The Macho King]

I mean... told ya so?

Dude hasn't been it for years. Being productive with the best pure playmaker in the league feeding you open nets isn't impressive.

I called a best case scenario of 30-30 in Nashville. Expected 25-25. Might end up 20-20.

 

[DFC]

All I saw was the one showing he had a high top-speed, which means extremely little in the nhl. I’ve heard dudes like Reaves can move in a straight line, they really book it like a drag car, but ask ‘em to take a corner, parallel park- nah mate. He moved extra fast on one breakaway, is all that particular one says to me, or that his isolated breakaway top speed is great, something that doesn’t come up often.

I trust the tech/stats, I just don’t trust their usefulness. They’re a tool, for a certain time and place. They’re not wrong, they just clearly don’t tell the whole picture.

Yeah, I don't doubt that Stamkos has reached a high-end top speed (probably after a bone-headed O zone pass that forced him to get back hard). But in general his speed hasn't been an asset since, probably, the broken leg. At least not in TB. But TB's teams have generally been pretty fast, which maybe made it look worse. Because he was almost always the slowest player on his line.

I mean... told ya so?

Dude hasn't been it for years. Being productive with the best pure playmaker in the league feeding you open nets isn't impressive.

I called a best case scenario of 30-30 in Nashville. Expected 25-25. Might end up 20-20.

I think I called 30-30 too. I think a lot of us might have, or at least those of us who could separate Stamkos the person (great) from Stamkos the player (feeding off Kucherov).

To my eye, Stamkos only ever had chemistry with two players. And Nashville just doesn't have playmakers of that caliber.

 

[Randyne]

Ive been saying it for years that Stamkos is the biggest passenger in the NHL. He's ridden off the backs of Kucherov and Point for the past 5 years.

In terms of team success Kucherov is far more bigger passenger, stats TBL P% for the past 5 years (2019/20-2023/24):
TBL P% with Kucherov =.619
TBL P% w/o Kucherov =.686 (94 games w/o Kuch = 25% of TBL games in that span)
TBL P% with Stamkos =.638
TBL P% w/o Stamkos =.611

 

[LordStanlersCup]

In terms of team success Kucherov is far more bigger passenger, stats TBL P% for the past 5 years (2019/20-2023/24):
TBL P% with Kucherov =.619
TBL P% w/o Kucherov =.686 (94 games w/o Kuch = 25% of TBL games in that span)
TBL P% with Stamkos =.638
TBL P% w/o Stamkos =.611

But those were also better teams when Kuch was out. The 19/20 team won the cup with Stamkos only playing in one playoff game.

 

[Voight]

I was reluctant to comment on this because sometimes a player takes time to adjust to a new system but wow. We're 60 games in now. 17 goals and none in his last 13 games.

This could be a very painful 4 x $8m.

Wouldn't be surprised if NSH retains heavy or gives a huge sweetner to a third party to retain on Stammer and they ship him back to TB this summer or sometime next year.

 

[Randyne]

But those were also better teams when Kuch was out. The 19/20 team won the cup with Stamkos only playing in one game.

Both true.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Wouldn't be surprised if NSH retains heavy or gives a huge sweetner to a third party to retain on Stammer and they ship him back to TB this summer or sometime next year.

That would be such a Lightning thing to do lol.

 

[boltsfan86]

Yeah, I don't doubt that Stamkos has reached a high-end top speed (probably after a bone-headed O zone pass that forced him to get back hard). But in general his speed hasn't been an asset since, probably, the broken leg. At least not in TB. But TB's teams have generally been pretty fast, which maybe made it look worse. Because he was almost always the slowest player on his line.



I think I called 30-30 too. I think a lot of us might have, or at least those of us who could separate Stamkos the person (great) from Stamkos the player (feeding off Kucherov).

To my eye, Stamkos only ever had chemistry with two players. And Nashville just doesn't have playmakers of that caliber.

To be fair speed is not the problem for Stamkos. He is still plenty fast. I think Nashville just stinks and as you said without great playmakers it has been tough for Stammer. Wish Nashville would just give him back.

But those were also better teams when Kuch was out. The 19/20 team won the cup with Stamkos only playing in one playoff game.

That team with Kucherov out is the best I have ever watched as a 20 something year old. Calling Kucherov a passenger is just a downright stupid take. Team is like 0.333 in games where he doesn't record a point now.

 

[Sky04]

In terms of team success Kucherov is far more bigger passenger, stats TBL P% for the past 5 years (2019/20-2023/24):
TBL P% with Kucherov =.619
TBL P% w/o Kucherov =.686 (94 games w/o Kuch = 25% of TBL games in that span)
TBL P% with Stamkos =.638
TBL P% w/o Stamkos =.611

This guy thinks Kucherov is a "far bigger passenger" than Stamkos, please disregard anything he may say from now on.

 

[Randyne]

This guy thinks Kucherov is a "far bigger passenger" than Stamkos, please disregard anything he may say from now on.

In 94 games TBL was better w/o Kuch than with him in that span. It's a fact. You can calculate it by yourself. If you don't know how, I'll explain, it's simple, it takes seconds.

 

[Stephen]

I'd argue this product is worse than a rebuild product as at least a rebuild is filled with optimism that your young players will turn into something special. The odds of winning a cup might be small, but they exist. The current core has 0% chance at winning the cup AND if they "stick with them" then you're just extending that 0% unnecessarily into another 2-4 years of futility and THEN rebuilding.

There's no choice IMO.

Feels like Trotz simmed through all the years of contention with this new core and ended up at late stage time to rebuild all in one summer. This feels like a team you need to aggressively dismantle. Which is terrible since some serious futures went out the window just in the autumn.

 

[boltsfan86]

In 94 games TBL was better w/o Kuch than with him in that span. It's a fact. You can calculate it by yourself. If you don't know how, I'll explain, it's simple, it takes seconds.

Probably because the team looked like this?
Ondrej Palat — Brayden Point — Nikita Kucherov
Tyler Johnson — Anthony Cirelli — Steven Stamkos
Barclay Goodrow — Yanni Gourde — Blake Coleman
Pat Maroon — Ross Colton — Mathieu Joseph

Victor Hedman — Jan Rutta
Ryan McDonagh — Erik Cernak
Mikhail Sergachev — David Savard

Andrei Vasilevskiy
Curtis McElhinney

 

[Fatass]

Nashville survived their awful start to a franchise, I give the fans credit. Obviously a downturn and lull happens when anybody is bad (maybe outside of the best markets in the NHL), but they'll be back.

Personally as a fan I hate the delusions of an old/withered core with 0% chance to go anywhere being brought back again and again. As soon as you see they're not even close to contenders, it's time to sell.

You’re a full on hockey fan though who understands the nuances of the game and building winning teams. How many fans like that are attending Nashville home games?

 

[Randyne]

Probably because the team looked like this?
Ondrej Palat — Brayden Point — Nikita Kucherov
Tyler Johnson — Anthony Cirelli — Steven Stamkos
Barclay Goodrow — Yanni Gourde — Blake Coleman
Pat Maroon — Ross Colton — Mathieu Joseph

Victor Hedman — Jan Rutta
Ryan McDonagh — Erik Cernak
Mikhail Sergachev — David Savard

Andrei Vasilevskiy
Curtis McElhinney

It's not about lines. Kuch missed 94 games. In those games TBL P% was .686; when Kuch was on the roster P% was .619

 

[DFC]

In 94 games TBL was better w/o Kuch than with him in that span. It's a fact. You can calculate it by yourself. If you don't know how, I'll explain, it's simple, it takes seconds.

Won a cup without Stamkos.

 

[Randyne]

Won a cup without Stamkos.

I know. With Hedman,Vasy, Point...

 

[DFC]

I know. With Hedman,Vasy, Point...

And Kucherov scoring 30+ points.

Everybody on our team gets worse when separated from Kucherov.