Stamkos is cooked

[LightningStrikes]

Trotz needs a new coach asap. What's Jacques Lemaire up to these days?

Also a 1C/2C wouldn’t hurt.

 

[nabby12]

7 points in last 7 games for Stamkos. Seems he and the team are doing better as of late.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

Stamkos no longer tries. He's got his cups and cash and is a future HHOFer.

 

[KaraLupin]

The person you responded to did not say this. Tampa fans have repeatedly stated that they do not begrudge Brisebois for not signing Stamkos, the issue we have is how he never intended to. His actions, and what he said to the media, never lined up.

The previous summer, when he was eligible to be extended, JBB made no attempt to sign him. Essentially every key member of the team we extend the summer before they reach free agency, we do this to avoid drama at the end, for instance we extended Hedman as soon as we were able to. This pushed Stamkos to finally say something about it to the media, since he didn't want to quietly be pushed aside and wanted to stay. JBB's response:



The problem I have with this response from JBB is he's implying that he has no role in the decision making process, the pieces fall where they fall and he's just a facilitator. He says a lot of nice things about Stamkos, but doesn't address the WHY as to not tabling an offer to Stamkos, while his peers get offers.

Then, on completion of the season



20 days after making this statement, Brisebois traded for McDonagh, eliminating all but about ~3m in cap space. JBB continued to act like we would keep Stamkos.

GM BriseBois believes Lightning can still re-sign Stamkos

The Lightning re-acquired defenceman Ryan McDonagh from the Nashville Predators in exchange for a second and fourth-round pick, raising some eyebrows and questions as to whether the team will have the adequate cap space to re-sign their current $8.5 million-per-year captain.

www.sportsnet.ca

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View attachment 951527

Again, the problem I have is that JBB completely glosses over his role as being the decision maker. He didn't accidentally trade for McDonagh and have no cap space, he has a deterministic opinion of Stamkos's worth and was handcuffing his ability to sign him. At this point in time one can reason that JBB thinks Stamkos is worth ~3m per year, and the rumors of him offering that but turning down a 4m aav counter offer from Stamkos seem very accurate.



So, at the end of the day Lightning fans aren't mad that JBB let Stamkos walk, we are mad that he had such a low opinion of him(while praising him in public) that he thought he was only worth ~3m per year. Stamkos still had 40g and was a ppg, but we let him walk because Stamkos needed more than 3m to stay and JBB wasn't budging. The lack of transparency makes the entire process feel really underhanded and deceptive.

The business side is the business side, everyone with a brain would tell you that offering a substantial contract at that age and with signs of his regress in play would be a huge mistake. The timeline reads like they were trying to push that narrative to the media and to Stamkos, without being wildly disrespectful and straight up saying it. They kept it open they would love to have him still on that type of 3-4 milly range, and they were going to let him make that decision in the off season if he wanted to look for another big contract to end his career on.

That timeline looks about as cordial as you can get publicly, when having to move on from a veteran that is most likely going to be offered more than his worth going to a new team. You expect them to absolutely bury him as a player all season publicly, as they move on for a playoff push?

 

[Rschmitz]

The business side is the business side, everyone with a brain would tell you that offering a substantial contract at that age and with signs of his regress in play would be a huge mistake. The timeline reads like they were trying to push that narrative to the media and to Stamkos, without being wildly disrespectful and straight up saying it. They kept it open they would love to have him still on that type of 3-4 milly range, and they were going to let him make that decision in the off season if he wanted to look for another big contract to end his career on.

That timeline looks about as cordial as you can get publicly, when having to move on from a veteran that is most likely going to be offered more than his worth going to a new team. You expect them to absolutely bury him as a player all season publicly, as they move on for a playoff push?

If you don't care about the optics of callously cutting bait with the 15 year face of your franchise and team captain, sure, I guess you can do whatever you want based on the rules of the collective bargaining agreement. Doesn't mean I need to like it, and I think Brisebois is an amazing GM, but he handled this poorly.

Respectfully, where your argument falls apart is that it you believe it was handled cordially. Do you think ghosting someone is cordial? Many teams go way out of their way to keep their aging stars in the loop to let them know their plan on keeping them, give them an early number that makes sense, and some early autonomy in the decision.. There was zero contact between Stamkos and Brisebois on a contract extension until Stamkos said something publicly, forcing a response from the GM. Yeah, of course a GM is not going to publicly come out and just shit talk a player, he wants to sweep that public relations dilemma under the rug. So your idea of respectful is to not communicate at all with him, not looping him into a negotiations timeline, until the media came to him with it?

If Stamkos were completely busted and not an NHL player, I can see where Brisebois would want to cut bait entirely and how it would be disrespectful to lead Stamkos on. You're implying that this was the case, when in reality this was his last 3 seasons in Tampa

I see no signs of regression. Stamkos was told to hush and wait and then was offered a 3m AAV take it or leave it offer. You're saying that is a substantial offer. That's the kind of offer you make where you're not really wanting the player to say yes, even as a player in a reduced role. There is a reason why Stamkos, who is one of the most respectful guys in the game couldn't restrain himself from being a little ruffled over the entire thing.

 

[Rschmitz]

One more thing that I think you are mistaking, is that Stamkos said no to 3-4 million, Stamkos said he'd take 4m to stay. It was Brisebois who said he wasn't going to budge from 3m per year after Stamkos asked for a counter offer. 4m AAV for a 40g ppg player and we said no, had to be 3m, I am sure, so that we could sign Guentzel.


This wasn't Stamkos chasing money, he clearly felt disrespected, of course afterwards he's going to take whomever was the highest bidder. This narrative that control over where he went was in his hands is not true, he was forced out.

 

[Sky04]

If you don't care about the optics of callously cutting bait with the 15 year face of your franchise and team captain, sure, I guess you can do whatever you want based on the rules of the collective bargaining agreement. Doesn't mean I need to like it, and I think Brisebois is an amazing GM, but he handled this poorly.

Respectfully, where your argument falls apart is that it was handled cordially, unless you think ghosting someone is being cordial. There was zero contact between Stamkos and Brisebois on a contract extension until Stamkos said something publicly, forcing a response from the GM. Yeah, of course a GM is not going to publicly come out and just shit talk a player, he wants to sweep that public relations dilemma under the rug. So your idea of respectful is to not communicate at all with him, not looping him into a negotiations timeline, until the media came to him with it?

If Stamkos were completely busted and not an NHL player, I can see where Brisebois would want to cut bait entirely and how it would be disrespectful to lead Stamkos on. You're implying that this was the case, when in reality this was his last 3 seasons in Tampa

View attachment 951787

I see no signs of regression. Stamkos was told to hush and wait and then was offered a 3m AAV take it or leave it offer. That's the kind of offer you make where you're not really wanting the player to say yes, even as a player in a reduced role. There is a reason why Stamkos, who is one of the most respectful guys in the game couldn't restrain himself from being a little ruffled over the entire thing.

Yeah and how did that play out? Nobody but a few people care to this day. The best decision was made. They ditched Stamkos and the franchise is still thriving.

 

[Rschmitz]

Yeah and how did that play out? Nobody but a few people care to this day. The best decision was made. They ditched Stamkos and the franchise is still thriving.

You don't care about how transactions happen, I do. Cool. When we start watching robots I will probably change my opinion. For me, thinking of the players on the ice as real people with real emotions draws me to watch more than the box score.

 

[KaraLupin]

If you don't care about the optics of callously cutting bait with the 15 year face of your franchise and team captain, sure, I guess you can do whatever you want based on the rules of the collective bargaining agreement. Doesn't mean I need to like it, and I think Brisebois is an amazing GM, but he handled this poorly.

Respectfully, where your argument falls apart is that it was handled cordially, unless you think ghosting someone is being cordial. There was zero contact between Stamkos and Brisebois on a contract extension until Stamkos said something publicly, forcing a response from the GM. Yeah, of course a GM is not going to publicly come out and just shit talk a player, he wants to sweep that public relations dilemma under the rug. So your idea of respectful is to not communicate at all with him, not looping him into a negotiations timeline, until the media came to him with it?

If Stamkos were completely busted and not an NHL player, I can see where Brisebois would want to cut bait entirely and how it would be disrespectful to lead Stamkos on. You're implying that this was the case, when in reality this was his last 3 seasons in Tampa

View attachment 951787

I see no signs of regression. Stamkos was told to hush and wait and then was offered a 3m AAV take it or leave it offer. That's the kind of offer you make where you're not really wanting the player to say yes, even as a player in a reduced role. There is a reason why Stamkos, who is one of the most respectful guys in the game couldn't restrain himself from being a little ruffled over the entire thing.

The aging veteran due for a big market value contract. Any GM should 9 times out of 10 shy away from this. His play was declining as most Bolts fans stated last year in his thread. No one said he wasn't still an NHL player.

Historically speaking, the GM will have been right to not give 4x8 million to a play-declining 34 year old, and yes Stamkos has a right to walk away from a team friendly contract to get his market value.

On the way, the GM praised the veteran, and didn't tarnish his name over what everyone saw was coming. He addressed it a handful of times, but didn't drag him through the mud, wanting to focus on the team's season and playoff push. Don't know what else you could have asked for in that situation when a GM has to address an expiring contract like that to media that asks.

After Stamkos retires, he will look back and see why the decision to not find a way to give him market value was made, and be okay with it, and so will those few of Bolts fans that are still emotional.

It was the right call, and done as cordial as you can for someone who played their entire career with a team, but clearly didn't fit with the cap structure anymore.

 

[Rschmitz]

The aging veteran due for a big market value contract. Any GM should 9 times out of 10 shy away from this. His play was declining as most Bolts fans stated last year in his thread. No one said he wasn't still an NHL player.

Historically speaking, the GM will have been right to not give 4x8 million to a play-declining 34 year old, and yes Stamkos has a right to walk away from a team friendly contract to get his market value.

On the way, the GM praised the veteran, and didn't tarnish his name over what everyone saw was coming. He addressed it a handful of times, but didn't drag him through the mud, wanting to focus on the team's season and playoff push. Don't know what else you could have asked for in that situation when a GM has to address an expiring contract like that to media that asks.

After Stamkos retires, he will look back and see why the decision to not find a way to give him market value was made, and be okay with it, and so will those few of Bolts fans that are still emotional.

It was the right call, and done as cordial as you can for someone who played their entire career with a team, but clearly didn't fit with the cap structure anymore.

He's 34 not 44, he averaged 39 goals and 91 points over the previous three seasons. Regressing or not, that's still 1st line production on any team in this league, and last I checked we are trying to win right now and not in 2030, his future drop off isn't relevant.

You're saying he isn't worth the 4m he offered to come back for? I don't think I'm being emotional when I say that's a dumbass opinion. Even as a PP specialist, which is what he should be, that's great value.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

 

[trellaine201]

View attachment 951848

He looks like the guy from Fasttimes at Ridgemount High for the older folk in here

 

[IslandBeast]

He looks like the guy from Fasttimes at Ridgemount High for the older folk in here

 

[Do Make Say Think]

The person you responded to did not say this. Tampa fans have repeatedly stated that they do not begrudge Brisebois for not signing Stamkos, the issue we have is how he never intended to. His actions, and what he said to the media, never lined up.

The previous summer, when he was eligible to be extended, JBB made no attempt to sign him. Essentially every key member of the team we extend the summer before they reach free agency, we do this to avoid drama at the end, for instance we extended Hedman as soon as we were able to. This pushed Stamkos to finally say something about it to the media, since he didn't want to quietly be pushed aside and wanted to stay. JBB's response:



The problem I have with this response from JBB is he's implying that he has no role in the decision making process, the pieces fall where they fall and he's just a facilitator. He says a lot of nice things about Stamkos, but doesn't address the WHY as to not tabling an offer to Stamkos, while his peers get offers.

Then, on completion of the season



20 days after making this statement, Brisebois traded for McDonagh, eliminating all but about ~3m in cap space. JBB continued to act like we would keep Stamkos.

GM BriseBois believes Lightning can still re-sign Stamkos

The Lightning re-acquired defenceman Ryan McDonagh from the Nashville Predators in exchange for a second and fourth-round pick, raising some eyebrows and questions as to whether the team will have the adequate cap space to re-sign their current $8.5 million-per-year captain.

www.sportsnet.ca

View attachment 951526

View attachment 951527

Again, the problem I have is that JBB completely glosses over his role as being the decision maker. He didn't accidentally trade for McDonagh and have no cap space, he has a deterministic opinion of Stamkos's worth and was handcuffing his ability to sign him. At this point in time one can reason that JBB thinks Stamkos is worth ~3m per year, and the rumors of him offering that but turning down a 4m aav counter offer from Stamkos seem very accurate.



So, at the end of the day Lightning fans aren't mad that JBB let Stamkos walk, we are mad that he had such a low opinion of him(while praising him in public) that he thought he was only worth ~3m per year. Stamkos still had 40g and was a ppg, but we let him walk because Stamkos needed more than 3m to stay and JBB wasn't budging. The lack of transparency makes the entire process feel really underhanded and deceptive.

All this is part of negociating. I don't see a problem.

You realize that had he signed Stamkos to 5 million per and he sucked, Brisebois would be crucified.

This is what it takes to remain competitive. It isn't personal, it is business.

 

[Rschmitz]

All this is part of negociating. I don't see a problem.

You realize that had he signed Stamkos to 5 million per and he sucked, Brisebois would be crucified.

This is what it takes to remain competitive. It isn't personal, it is business.

Exploring what ifs instead of facts gets us into rabbit holes, let’s look at the reverse instead.

Your GM could sign a 40g ppg player for 4m(the reported ask) while in their cup window and chose not to do it. Fact. Are we pretending like there wouldn’t be a conga line of teams trying to make that happen? The fact some team dropped their pants to get it done I think highlights what his perceived worth was, doesn’t diminish his actual value.

I applaud JBB for being decisive, but this isn’t the slam dunk obvious choice I’ve seen it made out to be in the last few posts. All of this to say, I would have liked to have seen the exodus conducted differently. I think Stamkos deserved the opportunity to sign a team friendly deal, while Bresbois navigated around that possibility and wrote him off. Doesn’t count here but I’ve been very vocal about how our current team looks amazing and our GMs moves as a whole have positioned us into being contender’s again.

 

[CraigBillington]

He looks like the guy from Fasttimes at Ridgemount High for the older folk in here

I've been trying to place this since 2008. Thank you.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Exploring what ifs instead of facts gets us into rabbit holes, let’s look at the reverse instead.

Your GM could sign a 40g ppg player for 4m(the reported ask) while in their cup window and chose not to do it. Fact. Are we pretending like there wouldn’t be a conga line of teams trying to make that happen? The fact some team dropped their pants to get it done I think highlights what his perceived worth was, doesn’t diminish his actual value.

I applaud JBB for being decisive, but this isn’t the slam dunk obvious choice I’ve seen it made out to be in the last few posts. All of this to say, I would have liked to have seen the exodus conducted differently. I think Stamkos deserved the opportunity to sign a team friendly deal, while Bresbois navigated around that possibility and wrote him off. Doesn’t count here but I’ve been very vocal about how our current team looks amazing and our GMs moves as a whole have positioned us into being contender’s again.

Stamkos' idea of a team friendly deal is likely very different from Brisebois'.

In the end, BB likely had a cap of what he was willing to pay Stamkos to stay and Stamkos wanted more. I just don't agree that BB was a dick about it; it takes two to tango.

I would have been pissed if Staios signed Stamkos to a long-to-medium term contract.

 

[Rschmitz]

Stamkos' idea of a team friendly deal is likely very different from Brisebois'.

In the end, BB likely had a cap of what he was willing to pay Stamkos to stay and Stamkos wanted more. I just don't agree that BB was a dick about it; it takes two to tango.

I would have been pissed if Staios signed Stamkos to a long-to-medium term contract.

I appreciate the response, but I don’t see the grey area, his reported ask of 4m shouldn’t be debatable as to whether that is team friendly.

The take it or leave it offer tabled by JBB I think also shows that there was no mutual discussion to tango with.

 

[LightningStrikes]

JBB had every right to move on from Stamkos. There is obviously no obligation the re-sign an UFA. It’s a bit complicated though when it’s your captain who played over a decade for this one team, a future HHOFer who won several trophies and the Cup(s) and who is a well liked and respected personality in your city and around the league.

In my personal view Stamkos, while an amazing player and great guy, had a bit too much of trouble finding and maintaining chemistry with other players. And if we’re being completely honest he only really found it two times in his career: With Martin St. Louis and with Nikita Kucherov.

Every contract extension with Stamkos was drama, we jokingly call them Stammergeddons on the Lightning sub for a reason. It always took way too long for unknown reasons. Maybe there was doubt earlier on but that’s speculation.

Now if I’m the GM and look at the facts I see a player on the wrong side of 30, who’s becoming more and more a negative on 5v5 and defensively in general, whose board work and stick handling got worse every season, who moved to wing in consequence, whose skating and mobility will soon get worse and who gives the coach headaches figuring out where to play him: You need somebody covering for him defensively and somebody feeding him pucks to utilize the one big thing he brings: his shot. And the latter can’t be just any playmaking player, they need to be MSL or Kuch. God knows we have tried anything else.

Now you’re tasked with finding a way to get rid of your declining face of the franchise without causing too much drama. Stating publicly that you don’t want them anymore or asking them to waive their NMC will not achieve that. So you wait out the final year(s) of the contract, speak well of them publicly, praise them, kinda leave the door open and simultaneously keep things vague enough to get through that last season without causing a shitstorm.

Giving Stamkos or his agent a heads-up during the process was probably too risky: A leak to the media is negative PR they don’t want in Tampa. Especially these days with social media. The “unfortunately we couldn’t work something out but we love him” version was the better option. Stamkos rode off into the sunset and got his big retirement contract elsewhere. Win-win right?

And for JBB that’s that. A business move. One that went well. Public drama (mostly) avoided. The remaining wounds will be healed when Stamkos retires: He will probably get his number retired etc and will likely return to the Lightning cosmos in some form after his career (community ambassador, TV, maybe even management).

And in the meantime the team keeps on trucking and is well positioned to return to the playoffs and maybe make some noise so nobody can really complain.

 

[surixon]

He's 34 not 44, he averaged 39 goals and 91 points over the previous three seasons. Regressing or not, that's still 1st line production on any team in this league, and last I checked we are trying to win right now and not in 2030, his future drop off isn't relevant.

You're saying he isn't worth the 4m he offered to come back for? I don't think I'm being emotional when I say that's a dumbass opinion. Even as a PP specialist, which is what he should be, that's great value.

Do we know how long that was for? $4 million sounds nice but it could be crippling if the term is 6 or 7 years with full trade protection and full signing bonuses making it buyout proof.

 

[Rschmitz]

Do we know how long that was for? $4 million sounds nice but it could be crippling if the term is 6 or 7 years with full trade protection and full signing bonuses making it buyout proof.

We don’t, agreed of course 4x4 is very different than 8x4.

 

[ryan callahan]

I appreciate the response, but I don’t see the grey area, his reported ask of 4m shouldn’t be debatable as to whether that is team friendly.

The take it or leave it offer tabled by JBB I think also shows that there was no mutual discussion to tango with.

At Stamkos' current level of play he should be thankful he is in the NHL because if his name was John Doe and he had no credentials he'd be grinding away for the Admirals right now.

 

[OurlordAndSaviorKuch]

Yeah and how did that play out? Nobody but a few people care to this day. The best decision was made. They ditched Stamkos and the franchise is still thriving.

To be fair you are also one of the most callous among us.

I would say most care at how this was handled not that it happened or shouldn't have happened.

All this is part of negociating. I don't see a problem.

You realize that had he signed Stamkos to 5 million per and he sucked, Brisebois would be crucified.

This is what it takes to remain competitive. It isn't personal, it is business.

Not as much as he was in the general public and fans for this.

Again I don't think there is any Bolts fan saying it was wrong to move on or that the timing was bad. What most don't like is the way in which it happened.

 

[Rschmitz]

At Stamkos' current level of play he should be thankful he is in the NHL because if his name was John Doe and he had no credentials he'd be grinding away for the Admirals right now.

This is false but ok. Overpaid but your way off if you think he’s not an NHL player

 

[PeE eL DuBoiS]

More like Stamkoast.