Stamkos Debate - PostDeadline 2016

[Faltorvo]

Re: The powerplay. Does it not feel a little like it's been poor by design?

Just a personal feeling, but throughout the season, i've felt like we've deliberately put out an under par PP unit. We've been very competitive for most the year 5v5 and if our PP was to hit some form, we'd very possibly be a few spots higher up the ladder. Sacrificing the powerplay doesn't really impact the team's system or the compete level we've seen most the year. It's been pretty handy having it massively under performing.

Re: Stamkos, I want him too. He's a game breaker. I think we're going to have the type of players that will compliment him fantastically. Particularly if Marner can deliver what we are hoping from him.

Someone else mentioned it, but the main aspect of a Stamkos deal IMO, needs to be that it comes to an end when Marner needs paying. Stamkos will then be looking at a much more reasonable deal, or he'll be on his way. I think now is the perfect time to sign him really.

He'll score goals.
He'll improve the power play.
He'll shelter the kids.
He'll take the media attention away from Nylander/Marner.
He'll show the kids how important taking care of themselves is.

Then if he can produce the level we know he is capable of, and has recently started to show again...

$11m is a lot of money. But I don't think this opportunity comes very often, if ever. I think we should take it.

We have the means to make the cap work.

He gives our skilled kids a skilled vet to work with , make plays with

A bona fide #1C (so rare to get asset free)

 

[ACC1224]

I guess

but all it would take is 10 or 11 so let's just give him that

for a guy who is better than Sundin ever was

(awaiting lecture on how great Sundin was at a bunch of vague make-believe things)

to me it's either we spend the money on a few more Mikael Grabners and watch them loiter around for years, or we sign Stamkos, put the C on his jersey, and watch him lead all these kids to the first Cup in over half a century. Then go party on Yonge street and make a bunch of babies. Some of whom might even grow up to be the next Stamkos and we'll have a future team full of them

you've convinced me

 

[Faltorvo]

Anybody else see the humour in that Babcock has picked him for Team Canada, and listed him as a winger?

Ya that made me think, heh

but just goes to show how badly they want him on the top two lines on the toughest roster on the planet to crack.

Just pause and think about that for a second.

All these great hockey minds that put this team together

the hardest team on the planet to earn a spot on

and they have him on their top/top 2 lines.

and yet we have folks like pookie , trying to weave his black magic

trying to convince you, he ain't worth getting asset free.

A 26 year old ELITE #1c , for cap space.

 

[Pookie]

and yet we have folks like pookie , trying to weave his black magic

trying to convince you, he ain't worth getting asset free.

A 26 year old ELITE #1c , for cap space.

Who said he wasn't worth it? The premise that you are putting forward is somewhat false. That he would take a hometown discount and wouldn't get something in the area of $11M.

Sure, if Stamkos comes for $5M… of course you do that. $6M? sure….. 11? Ummm… think long and hard about that one.

What is being said is that he isn't worth it at all costs.

Glad you've given up the scoring thing and we can agree that his production is down simply because he isn't producing like he once did.

 

[ACC1224]

Anybody else see the humour in that Babcock has picked him for Team Canada, and listed him as a winger?

I didn't watch any selection show. Did Babcock assign positions to them?

 

[Faltorvo]

Who said he wasn't worth it? The premise that you are putting forward is somewhat false. That he would take a hometown discount and wouldn't get something in the area of $11M.

Sure, if Stamkos comes for $5M… of course you do that. $6M? sure….. 11? Ummm… think long and hard about that one.

What is being said is that he isn't worth it at all costs.

Glad you've given up the scoring thing and we can agree that his production is down simply because he isn't producing like he once did.

Oh pookie

your black magic does not work on me , I went to hogwarts

Stammer at 11 million is easily countered cap wise

Just don't have plugs like Lupul eating 5.25m cap.

or a dion at 7m , concerns alleviated.

his 43 goals last season , good for 2nd in the league and 2nd in even strength goals, does not concern me one little bit.

I'm confident that the great minds running our team are as smart as those running team Canada.

 

[613Leafer]

I would put him as a winger too. Top centres end up as wingers for Team Canada all the time. Only 4 out of Crosby, Toews, Bergeron, Seguin, Getzlaf, Stamkos, Giroux, etc can play centre. Doesnt mean the others are bums.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Well if your not resigning those guys, than your either going through UFA(even more expensive) or your playing with even more rookies.(dumb if had your roster is rookies.)

Could you give me an example of cup contenders that have one star and a bunch of "plugs" as you say?

Cause I can give you numerous examples of cup teams that have built successfully through the draft. In no way do we have 10 million to drop on stamkos, without ditching the rebuild.

Stamkos is one piece of the puzzle. No one is going to say he instantaneously makes the Leafs a Cup contender. But when the time comes, hell yeah I want him to be a part of a core with Nylander, Marner, Rielly and this year's 1st. $10 million towards the cap be damned.

All the Cup contenders have done a great job rounding out their team with either late round picks filling depth roles nicely or grabbing cheap UFAs to round out the roster. Not all UFAs are expensive. Heck, the Leafs have done well recently in squeezing all they could out of cheap UFAs like MacArthur, Parenteau, Winnik, and tried the same with Booth and Raymond.

 

[Faltorvo]

Stamkos is one piece of the puzzle. No one is going to say he instantaneously makes the Leafs a Cup contender. But when the time comes, hell yeah I want him to be a part of a core with Nylander, Marner, Rielly and this year's 1st. $10 million towards the cap be damned.

All the Cup contenders have done a great job rounding out their team with either late round picks filling depth roles nicely or grabbing cheap UFAs to round out the roster. Not all UFAs are expensive. Heck, the Leafs have done well recently in squeezing all they could out of cheap UFAs like MacArthur, Parenteau, Winnik, and tried the same with Booth and Raymond.

Lets just say, for arguments sake

that 9.5m is the perfect cap hit, comparable to the rest of the league

and we "sacrifice" and get him for 11m cap

then all one has to ask themselves

is adding a 26 year old elite #1c worth a 1.5m cap hit "sacrifice"?

 

[Fogelhund]

Lets just say, for arguments sake

that 9.5m is the perfect cap hit, comparable to the rest of the league

and we "sacrifice" and get him for 11m cap

then all one has to ask themselves

is adding a 26 year old elite #1c worth a 1.5m cap hit "sacrifice"?

That is the determination... how much is he actually worth? I doubt there is one person who would say... I don't want Stamkos at all... it just comes down to cap management, and what his performance and what his game brings to the table is worth, and different people, have different viewpoints. There are those who view his relatively poor performance this past year +, as a short blip, where he shall return to his past glories soon. Then there is the other side, who look at this underperformance as a trend, and that he isn't typically a great two way center, but an elite scorer. Which is it? Those who see this as a trend, are not willing to pay as much as those who view it as an anomaly. I think the argument is more about the dollars, than anything else.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Oh pookie

your black magic does not work on me , I went to hogwarts

Stammer at 11 million is easily countered cap wise

Just don't have plugs like Lupul eating 5.25m cap.

or a dion at 7m , concerns alleviated.

his 43 goals last season , good for 2nd in the league and 2nd in even strength goals, does not concern me one little bit.

I'm confident that the great minds running our team are as smart as those running team Canada.

Not sure what you're trying to way here. We all know he can score, what might be of some concern to some is that he used to be among the league leaders in points, now he's on the fringes of the top 20. Still very good of course but is making him the highest paid player in the world a smart thing to do and committing to that for 7 years? I'm not so sure.

The fact that he can score is absolutely in his favour. But when you keep harping on the positives and ignore the negatives, it's clear you're not even trying to be objective.

That is the determination... how much is he actually worth? I doubt there is one person who would say... I don't want Stamkos at all... it just comes down to cap management, and what his performance and what his game brings to the table is worth, and different people, have different viewpoints. There are those who view his relatively poor performance this past year +, as a short blip, where he shall return to his past glories soon. Then there is the other side, who look at this underperformance as a trend, and that he isn't typically a great two way center, but an elite scorer. Which is it? Those who see this as a trend, are not willing to pay as much as those who view it as an anomaly. I think the argument is more about the dollars, than anything else.

Absolutely it's about the dollars. It seems that there are those who are blinded by the name Stamkos and are willing to pay him whatever it takes, just get him here because, well it's Stamkos man, are you kidding me, this is Steven Stamkos we're talking about. Other are a bit more cautious, understand that cap space is a very important asset and that the "he only costs cap space" isn't an argument at all, it's just proof that some people don't get it - star players are great but if you overpay them, it doesn't help the team, in fact it hurts the team. I'm all about the team, not individuals.

 

[Faltorvo]

That is the determination... how much is he actually worth? I doubt there is one person who would say... I don't want Stamkos at all... it just comes down to cap management, and what his performance and what his game brings to the table is worth, and different people, have different viewpoints. There are those who view his relatively poor performance this past year +, as a short blip, where he shall return to his past glories soon. Then there is the other side, who look at this underperformance as a trend, and that he isn't typically a great two way center, but an elite scorer. Which is it? Those who see this as a trend, are not willing to pay as much as those who view it as an anomaly. I think the argument is more about the dollars, than anything else.

I'd point to the brilliant hockey minds that select team Canada as a reference point.

It sure looks to me like they view it as a "blip"

as for the concerns about "other parts" of his game

once again, I will reference those picking team Canada

they have a very strong track record of leaving "just offensive players" at home

for example Spezza, Martin St. Louis , Yzerman and I could add to this list if needed.

Stammers game is more well rounded then some here would lead you to believe. Just ask team Canada's brain trust.

 

[Fogelhund]

I'd point to the brilliant hockey minds that select team Canada as a reference point.

It sure looks to me like they view it as a "blip"

as for the concerns about "other parts" of his game

once again, I will reference those picking team Canada

they have a very strong track record of leaving "just offensive players" at home

for example Spezza, Martin St. Louis and I could add to this list if needed.

Stammers game is more well rounded then some here would lead you to believe. Just ask team Canada's brain trust.

What are Team Canada's salary cap considerations? That pretty much nullifies the Team Canada example right there.

I concede he is a very good player... even top 16 in Canada... with the number of teams... I guess, top 80 or 100 in the world... nobody doubts that.

Well rounded? I don't think you've paid attention to his game.

 

[Jerkini]

Good enough for Team Canada, but not good enough for our beloved Leafs.

 

[TLeafsFan]

Stammer be like: "2-1 against us and 3-2 against Ovechkin and co.? Damn. A little bit of goal scoring can make a lot of difference on that team."

 

[Snow Dog]

What are Team Canada's salary cap considerations? That pretty much nullifies the Team Canada example right there.

I concede he is a very good player... even top 16 in Canada... with the number of teams... I guess, top 80 or 100 in the world... nobody doubts that.

Well rounded? I don't think you've paid attention to his game.

Top 80 or 100.You might want to recheck your hockey stats.Stamkos is easily a top 10 forward in the league.
Can you name me 80 or 100 players you would take on your team over him?

 

[Gary Nylund]

What are Team Canada's salary cap considerations? That pretty much nullifies the Team Canada example right there.

I concede he is a very good player... even top 16 in Canada... with the number of teams... I guess, top 80 or 100 in the world... nobody doubts that.

Well rounded? I don't think you've paid attention to his game.

This. The fact that he's picked for Team Canada basically means what? That he's a very good player, nobody's debating that. Does it mean that making him the highest paid player in the world is prudent? I don't think so.

Top 80 or 100.You might want to recheck your hockey stats.Stamkos is easily a top 10 forward in the league.
Can you name me 80 or 100 players you would take on your team over him?

I'd say he's a top 10 forward. If not, then he's real close, maybe 11th. These things are always not clear cut so I could understand of some people wouldn't have him in their top 10, it's debatable for sure.

 

[Fogelhund]

Given the last year and a bit... you could argue these forwards have brought more to the table..

Kane, Benn, Seguin, Karlsson, Kuznetsov, Backstrom, Thorton, Crosby, Malkin, Panarin, Ovechkin, Tarasenko, Bergeron, Kopitar, Giroux, McDavid.... He's in the top twenty right now... no doubt... he was top 5 a few years ago... can he get back??? I don't know.

Oh... and don't get your knickers in a knot about my small joke.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

Stammer be like: "2-1 against us and 3-2 against Ovechkin and co.? Damn. A little bit of goal scoring can make a lot of difference on that team."

I would love someone to dig out the stat of how many 1 goal games we lost this year...... seems like a ton.

 

[MacGuyver]

This. The fact that he's picked for Team Canada basically means what? That he's a very good player, nobody's debating that. Does it mean that making him the highest paid player in the world is prudent? I don't think so.



I'd say he's a top 10 forward. If not, then he's real close, maybe 11th. These things are always not clear cut so I could understand of some people wouldn't have him in their top 10, it's debatable for sure.

Even if he is the '11th' best forward in the game, how often do they one, become a UFA, and two, hail from toronto. You sign Stamkos 100%., no questions asked, not just to score goals, but to LEAD. so the exact opposite of Phil the thrill.

This is a no brainer. All of this cap stuff is BS as well. Chicago is managing fine having not one, but two 10+ million players on their team. Someone said it above, you have to make sure you don't have crappy contracts, the lupols, the bozaks, etc.

The key thing is finding talent that comes cheap to play for you. Again, look at the hawks. Panarin, etc. I have no doubt Hunter and Kyle and Lou can supplement Stamkos with good talent while still managing the cap.

All these naysayers.... give your head a shake, seriously.

 

[MacGuyver]

Given the last year and a bit... you could argue these forwards have brought more to the table..

Kane, Benn, Seguin, Karlsson, Kuznetsov, Backstrom, Thorton, Crosby, Malkin, Panarin, Ovechkin, Tarasenko, Bergeron, Kopitar, Giroux, McDavid.... He's in the top twenty right now... no doubt... he was top 5 a few years ago... can he get back??? I don't know.

Oh... and don't get your knickers in a knot about my small joke.

Panarin? Karlsson? double check your list. Surprised not to see Johnny T. Or Toews?? what do you man by 'brought more to the table'

How many of these players, will EVER become a UFA. You take them when you get them.

 

[TLeafsFan]

I would love someone to dig out the stat of how many 1 goal games we lost this year...... seems like a ton.

The answer is exactly 20 games as of now, lost by 1 goal in regulation, OT or SO.

 

[dirk41]

Good enough for Team Canada, but not good enough for our beloved Leafs.

It would be nice if people refrained from using strawmen. No one, and I mean no one, is arguing that Stamkos is not good enough for the Leafs.

It is entirely a cost-benefit analysis.

 

[Pi]

It would be nice if people refrained from using strawmen. No one, and I mean no one, is arguing that Stamkos is not good enough for the Leafs.

It is entirely a cost-benefit analysis.

If teams like the Hawks and Kings can make it work, surely we can have one star making 11M.

Dustin Brown makes like 6M and they have no problem contending.

 

[Jerkini]

It would be nice if people refrained from using strawmen. No one, and I mean no one, is arguing that Stamkos is not good enough for the Leafs.

It is entirely a cost-benefit analysis.

So let's see the analysis. Saying "We may have to pay X Y and Z" is a weak argument. We shouldn't let go of a sure thing because of what-ifs.

How anyone could be worried about the salary cap when we just traded Kessel, Clarkson and Phaneuf without much effort is beyond me. If those guys are tradeable, if Eric Staal is tradable at his salary, perennial Team Canada representative Steven Stamkos will be tradable.