Some summertime fun: Comparing Crosby vs. McDavid best Playoff runs

[DitchMarner]

So the timing of McDavid's scoring in the SCF doesn't matter but the timing of Crosby's scoring in 2018 does matter.

How is this not a double standard?

You're the one who started this thread and said McDavid's scoring in this year's SCF is overrated based on point totals and Crosby's scoring in 2009 is underrated based on point totals and then proposed that Crosby's two round performance in 2018 is superior to McDavid's three round performance in 2022 even though he scored one third of his points in the 2018 playoffs in two blowout games in round one (but I'm assuming you forgot or did not realize that was the case).

I don't recall such an obsession over when points were scored in the past... ever. If you want to emphasize that so much, how many of the points that the highest scorers in history scored were "meaningless" because the score wasn't tied or within one goal when the points were recorded?

The best I can do for you is acknowledge that Crosby probably played better in the 2009 SCF than his stats suggest. But that doesn't bridge the difference between 11 points and three and a plus five rating and a minus three rating. I'm sure we would disagree about how many of McDavid's points were actually meaningless.


I have never seen a post or heard a comment from anyone else saying that Crosby 2018 is a superior playoff run to McDavid 2022. CM97 had a highly impressive 71% GF% through two rounds in the 2022 playoffs. He scored 14 points in round one and 12 points in round two. What more can a first line centre do through two rounds? Crosby simply did not have that level of consistent overall impact through two rounds in 2018. Also, Connor's team won round two - haven't you basically acted as if points and performance mean nothing if your team loses?

 

[daver]

@daver I believe you struggle in these sorts of explorations for two reasons.

First you have your conclusion in mind first and then try to analyze the data in a way to fit the conclusions. This in itself is not anything remarkable, we all do this, as we all wish to justify our positions, or not even going that far, we all wish to illustrate our opinions with an appeal to something more "objective".

Here is what I think:

McDavid thru 9 seasons would be rated above Crosby through 9 seasons primarily on being more fortunate with injuries during his peak. I think they are on the same tier offensively.

McDavid's playoff resume so far, is similar to Hull's and Jagr's, one that is befitting his regular season level of dominance despite a Cup winning, Conn Smythe worthy playoff run on their resume. i.e. he loses no ground to a lesser talented players like Messier or Lafleur. But he also gains no ground like a Beliveau or Roy do.

Crosby should be rated above McDavid for the time being all-time, and has a very good argument for being #5. He is lacking nothing on his resume save for a peak season that rivals the best of the non Big 4.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You're the one who started this thread and said McDavid's scoring in this year's SCF is overrated based on point totals and Crosby's scoring in 2009 is underrated based on point totals and then proposed that Crosby's two round performance in 2018 is superior to McDavid's three round performance in 2024 even though he scored one third of his points in the 2018 playoffs in two blowout games in round one (but I'm assuming you forgot or did not realize that was the case).

I don't recall such an obsession over when points were scored in the past... ever. If you want to emphasize that so much, how many of the points that the highest scorers in history scored were "meaningless" because the score wasn't tied or within one goal when the points were recorded?

Not exactly going out on a limb here:

The high scoring era (70s/80s/early to mid 90s) is going to have a higher percentage of games with a deficit greater than 2 goals.

And the players on the historical dynasty teams (Gretzky, Bossy, Lemieux, Orr, etc.) from that era are going to have the most blowout points.

 

[daver]

I think Crosby vs the Caps is overrated. It's definetly the most iconic series in a long time, but just because he is going up against his rival doesn't mean it's harder for him to produce. The Caps and OV were not excatly going to make it hard for him to score that series.

Ok, now what about McDavid vs. the Canucks and their 3rd string goalie this year? 1 goal and 4th in team scoring doesn't scream "Wayne/Mario" level. As much as people point to Malkin saving Crosby's behind in 2009, Draisaitl saved McDavid's in 2024.

How about the 2022 Flames with Markstrom putting up an .852 sv%. Should we downgrade that series for McDavid?

How about McDavid's signature series vs. the #14 seeded Kings as opposed to Crosby vs. the #4 Caps. Should we downgrade that series for McDavid?

How about McDavid's series against the AVs in 2022? Two of his 7 points can be pointed to as reasonably being meaningful.

How about we upgrade Crosby's 2017 performance given he faced the two best defensive teams (and the #1 and #4 best teams overall) even before reaching the "harder 3rd and 4th rounds?

 

[daver]

You're the one who started this thread and said McDavid's scoring in this year's SCF is overrated based on point totals and Crosby's scoring in 2009 is underrated based on point totals and then proposed that Crosby's two round performance in 2018 is superior to McDavid's three round performance in 2024 even though he scored one third of his points in the 2018 playoffs in two blowout games in round one (but I'm assuming you forgot or did not realize that was the case).

I didn't propose this.

I said his 2018 run is as impressive, not superior, as McDavid's 2022 run and was open to debate.

If one wants to argue timing of points scored, which is reasonable, then that same lens also needs to be applied to McDavid when analyzing his 2024 SCF and his series against the Avs in 2022.

Do you not think it is reasonable to point out that McDavid's totals in 2024 SCF and 2022 are overrated given they could have come at more opportune times given his team lost?

 

[JackSlater]

We are discussing their performances through three rounds. (#1 in the OP). McDavid scored three more points in one more game than Crosby did in 2009. So, no, he was statistically more impressive offensively from a statistical perspective.

NHL Stats

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www.nhl.com

He had a three point lead on Draisaitl with 15 point shares (48% of his points) with Draisaitl vs. four of 28 for Crosby with Malkin. Crosby was a plus 12, McDavid was a plus 7.

And if points and leading in scoring are the be all, end all, then Crosby's 2018 run deserves more attention.

The post you quoted and portion you bolded is about their total playoff performances in those years. McDavid's 2024 playoffs is a better run than any that Crosby has had, offensive and overall.

 

[MadLuke]

Is this the whole playoffs or through three rounds?

Whole playoffs (which are more easier to find out than by date or game), 3 round could be closer and i have sympathy for a player facing Zetterberg-Lidstrom all the time, but that where becoming an all time best power play player can protect you and McDavid did more those playoffs.

I am not sure how much time we should spend time comparing 2 players first 3 rounds when they both played a lot of games in the finals, that not like comparing them to 93 and 94 Gilmours type of situation.

Here is Crosby's in 2018:

That where the benefit of being recent (and I watched a lot, penguins being back to back they were on almost everyone pick of playoff series to watch, at least to me), Guentzel-Crosby had insane numbers going on and a quick look could put them in the most dominant first 2 rounds series kind of talk.

But they both had 30% shooting percentage going on (themselve and their linemate) and yes that can be influenced by them creating nice scoring chance, but there was (from memory) a good amount of puck luck going on for them that spring, a bit like first half of Crosby second rocket. They had just regular about 50/50 corsi, but with a 21.5% on ice shot percentage (that under .800 goaltending).

That something a great player that made the playoff every season benefit from (you cannot score 19 goals in 12 games just by luck obviously and you need to roll the dice a lot of time for it to happen, a bit like their bad puck luck lost that will happen to those who make the playoff all the time).

The Pens those playoff despite that high scoring putting all-time numbers, only have a regular 22-23% PP. That a difference with McDavid doing what he do, he feel almost more unlucky than lucky sometime while putting those numbers, it has an inevitable feels that something will happen and reproducible, like when you watch cup run Mario playoff game. 2024 McDavid scored like he did with a 12.1% on-ice shooting percentage, his team winning only 42% of the faceoff, seem like he could do that again and again.

 

[DitchMarner]

I didn't propose this.

I said his 2018 run is as impressive, not superior, as McDavid's 2022 run and was open to debate.

If one wants to argue timing of points scored, which is reasonable, then that same lens also needs to be applied to McDavid when analyzing his 2024 SCF and his series against the Avs in 2022.

Do you not think it is reasonable to point out that McDavid's totals in 2024 SCF and 2022 are overrated given they could have come at more opportune times given his team lost?

I meant 2022. I edited the post. And yes, you did say arguably equal, not superior. Apologies for that.

I still don't think it's on the same level, though.

In the COL series he had two three points game. The first of those was in an 8-6 win for COL where the Avs scored an empty-netter. The second was in a game that COL won in OT. His only other point in that series was a goal that opened the scoring in Game Three. I don't think the timing of his points was really an issue. It was more that EDM played a run-and-gun style and was beaten at it. Many of their players in that series had a minus rating. I don't think anyone considers that one of his best series in recent years anyway.

And I'm tired of talking about this year's SC Final. I think he produced and played at such a level that his team could reasonably have won with a better showing from Draisaitl. I don't think all his points were clutch or important, but I think many were important at the time or in the long-run (the two points in Game Three gave his team a chance for a comeback and the first three in game Five ended up being valuable because of how close that game became)..

 

[McPoyle]

Im still waiting for some stats that show Crosby was a defensive stalwart.

 

[DitchMarner]

Whole playoffs (which are more easier to find out than by date or game), 3 round could be closer and i have sympathy for a player facing Zetterberg-Lidstrom all the time, but that where becoming an all time best power play player can protect you and McDavid did more those playoffs.

I am not sure how much time we should spend time comparing 2 players first 3 rounds when they both played a lot of games in the finals, that not like comparing them to 93 and 94 Gilmours type of situation.





That where the benefit of being recent (and I watched a lot, penguins being back to back they were on almost everyone pick of playoff series to watch, at least to me), Guentzel-Crosby had insane numbers going on and a quick look could put them in the most dominant first 2 rounds series kind of talk.

But they both had 30% shooting percentage going on (themselve and their linemate) and yes that can be influenced by them creating nice scoring chance, but there was (from memory) a good amount of puck luck going on for them that spring, a bit like first half of Crosby second rocket. They had just regular about 50/50 corsi, but with a 21.5% on ice shot percentage (that under .800 goaltending), age

That something a great player that made the playoff every season benefit from (you cannot score 19 goals in 12 games just by luck obviously and you need to roll the dice a lot of time for it to happen, a bit like their bad puck luck lost that will happen to those who make the playoff all the time).

The Pens those playoff despite that high scoring putting all-time numbers, only a regular 22-23% PP. That a difference with McDavid doing what he do, he feel almost more unlucky than lucky sometime while putting those numbers, it feel inevitable and reproducible, like when you watch cup run Mario playoff game. 2024 McDavid scored like he did with a 12.1% shooting percentage, his team winning only 42% of the faceoff, seem like he could do that again and again.

If you take away McDavid's showing against CGY in 2022, then maybe you can make a case that Crosby's playoff run in 2018 was equal to or better than McDavid's run in 2022. But I think he clearly has two very strong series whereas Crosby has one that is dominant and another where he scored a lot but also gave up a lot and McDavid had one like that himself but not in the first two rounds.

 

[MadLuke]

Playoff stats... that small sample and "dangerous", like he was getting scored less goals than Malkin during their first 2 finals run, despite a less offensize zone deployment:

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

But not via shots prevention or anything like that, he had a really high PDO

In the next back to back trips to the finals, other way around:

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[norrisnick]

Im still waiting for some stats that show Crosby was a defensive stalwart.

His teams won. It wasn't due to some offensive superiority relative to players he's being compared to so obviously it must have been his defense, because also obviously credit can't possibly be given to any of his teammates.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Ok, now what about McDavid vs. the Canucks and their 3rd string goalie this year? 1 goal and 4th in team scoring doesn't scream "Wayne/Mario" level. As much as people point to Malkin saving Crosby's behind in 2009, Draisaitl saved McDavid's in 2024.

How about the 2022 Flames with Markstrom putting up an .852 sv%. Should we downgrade that series for McDavid?

How about McDavid's signature series vs. the #14 seeded Kings as opposed to Crosby vs. the #4 Caps. Should we downgrade that series for McDavid?

How about McDavid's series against the AVs in 2022? Two of his 7 points can be pointed to as reasonably being meaningful.

How about we upgrade Crosby's 2017 performance given he faced the two best defensive teams (and the #1 and #4 best teams overall) even before reaching the "harder 3rd and 4th rounds?

we get it, Daver.

Crosby is superior and puts up points only when it matters, and against only the elite competition. He also does it all by himself….where as McDavid can only score points if the goaltending is weak and if Drai is on his line.

Remind me though…where was Crosby during these times?

2009 vs Detroit: 7-1-2-3 -3(didn’t show up for game 7)
2010 vs Montreal: 7-1-4-5 -1(didn’t show up for game 7)
2013 vs Boston: 4-0-0-0 -2(didn’t show up for game 4)
2014 vs Rangers: 7-1-2-3 -2(didn’t show up for game 7)
2016 vs Capitals: 6-0-2-2 -3(didn’t show up for game 6)
2019 vs Islanders: 4-0-1-1 -4(didn’t show up for game 4)

 

[Golden_Jet]

Crosby had 31 points in 24 games; 1.29 ppg
McDavid had 42 points in 25 games, 1.68 ppg

How exactly is that almost identical?

For some odd reason OP wants to cherry pick and remove the fourth round for Crosby, to bump up his points per game stat.
Supposed to compare 3 rounds for Crosby vs 4 rounds for McDavid.

 

[GreatGonzo]

For some odd reason OP wants to cherry pick and remove the fourth round for Crosby, to bump up his points per game stat.
Supposed to compare 3 rounds for Crosby vs 4 rounds for McDavid.

Basically leave out the part where Crosby struggled and ignore it because it hurts his overall argument.

He also has continuously stated how Crosbys ‘09>McDavids ‘22 and ‘24 through three rounds without any real argument other than, “because he’s Crosby.”

He used Drai having a hand in some of McDavids point totals in ‘22 as a knock against him…..but then doesnt bring up the fact that Crosby and Malkin were tied in points in ‘09 after 3 rounds. Why isn’t that a ding against Crosby?

Even his points are ridiculous…heres just a couple…
“2. Crosby's 2009 SCF performance is underrated based on point totals; McDavid's 2024 SCF performance is overrated based on point totals.”

Like, what?

“4. Crosby's 2017 SCF was superior to McDavid's 2024 SCF”

How so?…
Crosby: 6-1-6-7 +5
McDavid: 7-3-8-11

I’d also like to point out that Crosby Inflated his point totals by having 3 assists in a 6-0 blow out in game 5. Just saying, if @daver is going to use McDavids game 4 and 5 stats against him and call them “meaningless”, better not be a hypocrite and point out the obvious.

 

[McPoyle]

How so? Courtesy of MadLuke:

As 5v5.

Crosby 2009: 21-12 GF/GA in 348 min. 2.07 GA/60. OISV% of 93.0. CF % Rel of 0.0.

McDavid 2024: 28-14 GF/GA in 435 min. 1.93 GA/60. OISV% of 91.3. CF % Rel of 12.1%.

McDavid also had significantly more takeaways. 25 to 14.

Less goals conceded per 60 in a higher scoring era. Worse goaltending behind them. More dominant possession compared to teammates.

 

[Letsdothis]

Did someone seriously propose that Crosby's 2018 run was as impressive as McDavid's 2022 run?

Despite the obvious difference in production (through two rounds McDavid had 26 points in 12 games, Crosby had 20 in 12), just watching the games would make it beyond obvious that there was a gigantic chasm between their performance.

I was sure that the OP had just misspelled 2023 as 2022, which would make sense. McDavid's 2023 playoff was comparable to Crosby's 2018.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Did someone seriously propose that Crosby's 2018 run was as impressive as McDavid's 2022 run?

Despite the obvious difference in production (through two rounds McDavid had 26 points in 12 games, Crosby had 20 in 12), just watching the games would make it beyond obvious that there was a gigantic chasm between their performance.

I was sure that the OP had just misspelled 2023 as 2022, which would make sense. McDavid's 2023 playoff was comparable to Crosby's 2018.

The ultimate irony is his reasoning. Daver claims his 2022 isn’t as impressive because Drai was only 1 point back and had a hand in a good chunk of his production….but then he’s going to ignore that Guentzel had 21 points in 12 games with 10 goals….so he finished SECOND in scoring behind him, but he’s not going to use that against Crosby. The convenience..

 

[daver]

In the COL series he had two three points game. The first of those was in an 8-6 win for COL where the Avs scored an empty-netter. The second was in a game that COL won in OT. His only other point in that series was a goal that opened the scoring in Game Three. I don't think the timing of his points was really an issue. It was more that EDM played a run-and-gun style and was beaten at it. Many of their players in that series had a minus rating. I don't think anyone considers that one of his best series in recent years anyway.

First bolded:

Two of these points came after the Avs had built a 4 goal lead late in the 2nd. Is there value in those points that got them close to a possible win? Sure, but not nearly as worthy as points that lead to a win, and even less so when that point was a goal that opened the scoring.

How more points does Crosby put up in games where he doesn't score those early goals and the Pens are playing from behind? What about when there is nothing left to do but go all out offense?

How many more points does Crosby score if the Pens play a run and gun style where he and Malkin are on the same line significantly more than they were in 2008 and 2009? Maybe more but in less games because they are not as effective overall as a team.


Second bolded:

Many argue that McDavid in 2022 was the best playoff run since Mario/Wayne and was better than Crosby's performance thru 3 rounds in 2009.

Yet Crosby has arguably the best run between the two (Caps) and McDavid has the worst (Col). How can McDavid's be unequivocally better?

 

[daver]

And I'm tired of talking about this year's SC Final. I think he produced and played at such a level that his team could reasonably have won with a better showing from Draisaitl. I don't think all his points were clutch or important, but I think many were important at the time or in the long-run (the two points in Game Three gave his team a chance for a comeback and the first three in game Five ended up being valuable because of how close that game became)..

I added another claim in the OP: Crosby's 2008 SCF was as good, arguably better than, as McDavid's 2024 SCF.

Crosby wins Game 3 with two early goals to position the Pens to have a chance against the Wings instead being down 3-0; historically a hole that is extremely rare for a team to dig themselves out of. He has two points in Game 5 to force a Game 6, and has a point in Game 6.

So here again is another series where point totals do not tell the whole story.

The point of the thread is to show that a POINTS!!! argument for McDavid over Crosby needs as much nuance as a THREE CUPS!!!! argument for Crosby over McDavid.

 

[daver]

I am not sure how much time we should spend time comparing 2 players first 3 rounds when they both played a lot of games in the finals, that not like comparing them to 93 and 94 Gilmours type of situation.

Fair point. It all comes down to narratives.

Talk of McDavid being better in 2022 than Crosby ever was seems unfair to Crosby in 2009 as McDavid did not make the finals (partly due to him not producing enough against Colorado).

Claiming that McDavid's 2024 is the best Cup run since Wayne/Mario is fair but overlooks that Crosby in 2009 was better in the three rounds prior which makes it closer than their point totals would dictate.

Until proven differently, I do not think that McDavid has eliminated the "winner" edge Crosby has over him.

 

[Matsun]

I added another claim in the OP: Crosby's 2008 SCF was as good, arguably better than, as McDavid's 2024 SCF. Crosby wins Game 3 with two early goals to position the Pens to have a chance against the Wings instead being down 3-0; historically a hole that is extremely rare for a team to dig themselves out of. He has two points in Game 5 to force a Game 6, and has a point in Game 6.

It doesn't matter if Crosby didn't get his team down 0-3 because McDavid was the only one of the 2 that got their team to 3-3.

 

[daver]

It doesn't matter if Crosby didn't get his team down 0-3 because McDavid was the only one of the 2 that got their team to 3-3.

At the end of the day, they were both satisfactory performances in ultimately a losing effort. And McDavid "won" one game for his team (Game 5). He had one important point in Game 4.*

And perhaps the Panthers were the better team than the Oilers and win the series more times than not if played again. But you can reasonably state that the Oilers loss has to be shouldered some by McDavid not producing until the series was well in hand for the Panthers.

In Crosby's case, the Pens were up against the clear best Cup winner since the 2005 lockout and were not winning that series no matter how many times played again. It was a miracle they got to a Game 6.

I have no issue with anyone putting those two series on the same tier but then Crosby's 2017 SCF is placed higher than both of those.


* if this is getting too picky then that brings Crosby's 2018 playoffs into the discussion

 

[bobholly39]

At the end of the day, they were both satisfactory performances in ultimately a losing effort. And McDavid "won" one game for his team (Game 5). He had one important point in Game 4.*

And perhaps the Panthers were the better team than the Oilers and win the series more times than not if played again. But you can reasonably state that the Oilers loss has to be shouldered some by McDavid not producing until the series was well in hand for the Panthers.

In Crosby's case, the Pens were up against the clear best Cup winner since the 2005 lockout and were not winning that series no matter how many times played again. It was a miracle they got to a Game 6.

I have no issue with anyone putting those two series on the same tier but then Crosby's 2017 SCF is placed higher than both of those.


* if this is getting too picky then that brings Crosby's 2018 playoffs into the discussion

Why do you have to post stupid shit? With narrative you can nitpick any game/series and make it look bad if you try hard enough. Connor McDavid had an amazing series.

Game 1 - I didn't watch this game, but I saw highlights and read reports. McDavid had 6 shots, and from what I recall people were saying he played an absolutely great game, but Bobrovsky definitely robbed him and Oilers ofter repeatedly. Great effort for game 1.

Connor McDavid was the best player in game 3. No Oilers didn't come back to tie it 4-4 in the game, but they made it 4-3 and created a ton of momentum. If they lose 4-1 in game 3 without even trying, whose to say they aren't swept?

Connor McDavid was again great in game 4. No he wasn't the first one to get on the scoring board in the game, but his strong play again helped Oilers get off to a great start, build on momentum from last game and take a big lead that McDavid helped add to. If they win that game 2-0 or 3-0 instead of 8-1, whose to say momentum doesn't stall and they are simply eliminated in game 5?

Game 5 - One of the best games of hockey I've ever seen. Fantastic performance from McDavid.

Game 6 - Oilers took a very early lead. And made it 2-0 super early in the 2nd. They were in comple control the whole game. True that McDavid didn't "take this game over" in anyway, but he didn't need to. He played under 19 minutes that game, one of his lowest totals all playoffs. I'm not saying give him credit for this game - but it was smart for him to not go "all out" when it wasn't necessary anymore. If it had been a tight 1-0 win by Oilers, maybe I count that as a negative for McDavid not trying harder, but as it is I have no real issue with this performance.

Game 7 - Panthers really stepped up big time here to keep all Oilers in check. It wasn't McDavid's greatest game (it looked like the ice quality sucked, and it didn't help him at all) - but it's obvious that McDavid and other core Oilers were completely out of energy by this point. 25+ mins of ice-time.

You always like to say "Crosby with only ~30 less injury games has xyz more trophies and his career looks significantly better".

Well - here's that logic at you. "McDavid with one lucky bounce to tie game in game 7 - and Oilers win OT - is in argument for the greatest final of all-time, capping off an 0-3 comeback to win the cup".

Quit being so biased. McDavid's overall 2024 playoff run is definitely better than any of Crosby's individual playoff run. His final performance is also better than any of Crosby's.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I watched basically every game in Crosby's 2008 and 2009 runs and McDavid's 2022 and 2024 runs.

I think McDavid just plain played better hockey. We can squint at the stats, but watching live I don't think it's particularly close. Crosby was tremendous in 2008 and I think it was easily his best playoff performance. But it just wasn't McDavid 2022 or 2024. Outside the Washington series, I didn't love Crosby 2009.

A big part of it was Malkin looked so good in 2009. Draisaitl put up points in both runs, but outside the Kings series in 2024 I think was very obviously behind McDavid.