Some details about the World Cup...

[Theokritos]

I think you're overrating the anti-NHL sentiment among European fans in general. It's true that there is always going to be somebody who complains, but the public perception is not going to be decided by the opinion of some homers or hardliners, it's what the bulk of observers from neutral countries think. And the bulk of European obervers will never make friends with the concept of non-impartial (in terms of provenance) referees, that's the issue, not that European fans want to blame the NHL no matter what. Give them competent referees from neutral countries and alternate hosting and they will embrace the World Cup.

 

[Jablkon]

For example the Czech league used to start in early September in the 1990s, except in 1996 when it began 1-2 weeks later, after the World Cup had finished. Unexpectedly, the Czechs were eliminated early so it didn't matter in the end, but the willingness to make adjustments was there. Another example I was going to cite is the fact that the Soviet league used to begin in September during the 1960s and the start was moved back to October by the time the Summit Series came around. But I've found that this change was already introduced one year earlier, in 1971, and I'm not sure they had the opportunity of an international series in mind when they did that.

Generally speaking, the European leagues were most often willing to make schedule adjustments for international tourmaments when necessary. Just think of the Olympic break. The Soviet league even had a World Championship break at times since the national championship was not always over when the World Championship was scheduled.

That is actually very good point. I think no one really realized that european leagues have to have olympic break as well ))

 

[The Bad Guy*]

I'm still of the opinion that there is only a perceived bias and that it is largely a figment of imaginations b/c fans will ***** and complain about anything and everything, it's the nature of being a fan... So, the NHL can institute a program to train non-NHL (Europeans) refs to work the World Cup, but fans will complain about that as well...there'll be something..a call will be made...and there will be folks around these parts who will immediately fill up these pages calling that ref an NHL sell out.. the NHL bought and paid for that call to favor the NHL's desired outcome. i.e. a U.S. or Canada win.... you know that is how it is going to go down...

but hey, the NHL should institute a program for the best European refs...have them work the IIHF WHC in May along with NHL refs not assigned to play-off duty. (they are not the best NHL refs otherwise they'd be working playoffs..but still they may be better than the political ass-kissers the IIHF normally goes with on the recommendation of the Federations...see how they do at the WHC and then if that works out, then the best of the best work the WC.

I agree that having neutral refs will not do much for fans who ***** and moan. it is just in the nature of certain types of fans to do so, we saw this last WHC, neutral refs but protests of bias.It got so bad that even the players such as Jokinen were saying the fix was in. For some fans when your team loses there is a fix and this mentality seems worse amongst European fans which is probably due to past sporting history, north American fans do not seem to have that inbred fear of biased reffing to the degree they have it no matter who calls the games.They seem to be more infected with it and it does not seem to matter about neutral refs as long as the team they cheer for loses a close game.

Having said that, what you and theo are proposing is probably the best way to go and I would like to see it happen if for nothing else that it will keep the fans from complaining about biased reffing when their team has been clearly outplayed, it may keep them from complaining so much when they have lost a game 5-2.

I have given up any hopes of them not complaining about a fix when the game is 3-2 or 4-3 whether there is neutral refs or not.


We can only hope for a here and there remission in some fans behaviour not a cure and this may help.

Maturity can not be legislated unfortunately.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

As long as the nhl cuts the khl and iihf in and commits to consistently hosting the tournament, then it will have success.

I really don't see how the NHL would think they could have success otherwise.

 

[1Gold Standard]

I agree that having neutral refs will not do much for fans who ***** and moan. it is just in the nature of certain types of fans to do so, we saw this last WHC, neutral refs but protests of bias.It got so bad that even the players such as Jokinen were saying the fix was in. For some fans when your team loses there is a fix and this mentality seems worse amongst European fans which is probably due to past sporting history, north American fans do not seem to have that inbred fear of biased reffing to the degree they have it no matter who calls the games.They seem to be more infected with it and it does not seem to matter about neutral refs as long as the team they cheer for loses a close game.

Having said that, what you and theo are proposing is probably the best way to go and I would like to see it happen if for nothing else that it will keep the fans from complaining about biased reffing when their team has been clearly outplayed, it may keep them from complaining so much when they have lost a game 5-2.

I have given up any hopes of them not complaining about a fix when the game is 3-2 or 4-3 whether there is neutral refs or not.


We can only hope for a here and there remission in some fans behaviour not a cure and this may help.

Maturity can not be legislated unfortunately.

Well said... I wonder if we were to eliminate every possible reason to complain, would a lot of these "fans" still have reason to watch? Sometimes I think the argument is more what drives their fan interest than the actual sport itself.

 

[JackSlater]

And did you happen to catch the opening match from the World Cup yesterday? I would hardly call that an exemplary example of "unbiased" officiating even though the ref was from a "neutral" country. That was typical FIFA. How anybody can argue FIFA is the standard by which all sporting events should be officiated, I say, No thanks. NHL gets it right.

The fixation on soccer/FIFA among many European fans amazes me. I understand that soccer generally dominates the sporting landscape in Europe, but hockey is a different sport, and much more importantly FIFA is not an organization that should be emulated. I may complain about the NHL and the IIHF, but both of them are far more credible than FIFA.

Stating that refs from neutral countries are the international custom is a matter of fact, not an argument. Making an argument would be the next step: the international custom should also be observed in hockey. Do I make that argument? Well, yes, I do believe it's not optimal to have Canadian refs working games of Team Canada. But I also concede that the level of IIHF refereeing is not always satisfactory and it's better to use Canadian NHL refs than incompetent refs from a neutral country.

I believe that the last part of this paragraph is the main point of most North American posters. Most people in North America want NHL referees because they believe them to be the best, not because they are Canadian or American. If the NHL hires referees from Europe and they demonstrate their ability at the highest level, that would be excellent. Likewise, if some European hockey league demonstrated that their referees were consistently of the highest quality, that would be just as good. Most people in North America want the best referees, regardless of their nationality.

 

[Jablkon]

Well said... I wonder if we were to eliminate every possible reason to complain, would a lot of these "fans" still have reason to watch? Sometimes I think the argument is more what drives their fan interest than the actual sport itself.

To be hones last time when I took care of this issue was 98OG when there were also NHL referees in Canada's and USA's games. Except maybe two questionable penalties, they really proved their professional attitude and impartiality. Since that moment I never cared again about NHL referees in NAteams games. I am not sure if it worked same in next Olympics but I do not remember any concrete claim that NHL referee helped to NA team.....

 

[ES]

Would they plan to play all games in ACC or maybe some lesser games in Ricoh?

 

[AmericanDream]

way too much complaining going on here. wait until they officially announce it before we have endless bickering. I love international competition and the World Championships just isn't going to cut it with there likely being no Olympic hockey possibly next 2 Olympics.

bring on the World Cup, loved it in 87, 91 (as Canada Cup), and 96. Plenty of amazing things they could do with it and if it helps promote the sport minutely, then I am all for it.

USA will crush in 2016, so be afraid...

 

[Jablkon]

way too much complaining going on here. wait until they officially announce it before we have endless bickering. I love international competition and the World Championships just isn't going to cut it with there likely being no Olympic hockey possibly next 2 Olympics.

bring on the World Cup, loved it in 87, 91 (as Canada Cup), and 96. Plenty of amazing things they could do with it and if it helps promote the sport minutely, then I am all for it.

USA will crush in 2016, so be afraid...

When no one knows real intentions of entity which wants to organize this tourney, people reise questiones. I do not even know why we should not have next two olympics with NHLers...Hard to accept it just as a fact.... It just makes people being mad of NHL....

 

[Yakushev72]

I'm still of the opinion that there is only a perceived bias and that it is largely a figment of imaginations b/c fans will ***** and complain about anything and everything, it's the nature of being a fan... So, the NHL can institute a program to train non-NHL (Europeans) refs to work the World Cup, but fans will complain about that as well...there'll be something..a call will be made...and there will be folks around these parts who will immediately fill up these pages calling that ref an NHL sell out.. the NHL bought and paid for that call to favor the NHL's desired outcome. i.e. a U.S. or Canada win.... you know that is how it is going to go down...

but hey, the NHL should institute a program for the best European refs...have them work the IIHF WHC in May along with NHL refs not assigned to play-off duty. (they are not the best NHL refs otherwise they'd be working playoffs..but still they may be better than the political ass-kissers the IIHF normally goes with on the recommendation of the Federations...see how they do at the WHC and then if that works out, then the best of the best work the WC.

Doesn't that sound a bit condescending, to just assume there is a level of superiority among all NHL officials? How about KHL officials who work 70 to 80 games a year, including playoffs? What is the basis for the default label of inferiority you have placed on them? Do you know the names of KHL refs and have you analyzed the games that they've worked? This is the basis for deciding that it is justified to have Canadian referees working Canada's game, but is this based on actual study and valid evidence?

 

[habsrule4eva3089]

Brad Meier - 885
Kelly Suterhland - 869
Tim Peel - 875

Just three of the officals that the NHL counted on during the Olympics that officiated semis and final.

Games of Experience in the NHL, not counting what they did prior to getting here and the Olympic Experiences dating all the way back to Nagano 1998.

Now lets discuss, in any profession, the best, most experienced will always be permitted to work on the final project, right? Shall we put a Russian referee in the Gold Medal game involving NHL players, when the way he calls a game is completely in a different world in a tournament where NHLer's make the majority of the competition of all the teams that have aspirations to win. What sense is that.

And this lousy thinking that comes with Bias, these men are professionals, their jobs are at stake, their livelihoods, you think they're going to not call a hook on Sidney Crosby because he's from his province. Common get out of here. This isn't soccer, there has never been an issue since 1998 since best on best competition, in any Gold Medal game, was there any bias with the officials that have taken part, now why would that change now?

 

[KuralySnipes]

Ill watch of course, but it's hard to think that this will be even close to the entertainment of Olympic Hockey. The U.S. and Canada will probably meet in the final easily, Sweden would be good too. Finland and Russia have a lot of depth in European leagues, don't see tem competing with those 3.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Ill watch of course, but it's hard to think that this will be even close to the entertainment of Olympic Hockey. The U.S. and Canada will probably meet in the final easily, Sweden would be good too. Finland and Russia have a lot of depth in European leagues, don't see tem competing with those 3.

It would not take much to beat the entertainment value of this past olympics. I can pretty much guaruntee your proposed final between the U.S and Canada will beat will beat anything we saw this past feb at the olympics.

I loved Canada winning but the tournament itself was subpar in terms of game excitement and drama.

 

[RJ8812*]

Would they plan to play all games in ACC or maybe some lesser games in Ricoh?

probably ACC & Copps Coliseum

 

[1Gold Standard]

Doesn't that sound a bit condescending, to just assume there is a level of superiority among all NHL officials? How about KHL officials who work 70 to 80 games a year, including playoffs? What is the basis for the default label of inferiority you have placed on them? Do you know the names of KHL refs and have you analyzed the games that they've worked? This is the basis for deciding that it is justified to have Canadian referees working Canada's game, but is this based on actual study and valid evidence?

As I told Theo, and you already know, I lived in Europe for 7 years. I took in a lot of hockey games, league and tournaments in Switzerland, Czech Rep., Slovakia, Finland, Sweden and Russia...based on that experience and what has to be over a 100 games, I think I can make a fair assessment as to the level of European officiating in relation to NHL refs.

You want to tell me how many NHL games you have been to and what evidence you have to suggest KHL refs are, as a group, every bit as qualified as NHL refs? b/c from what I have seen, they are not.

 

[Yakushev72]

As I told Theo, and you already know, I lived in Europe for 7 years. I took in a lot of hockey games, league and tournaments in Switzerland, Czech Rep., Slovakia, Finland, Sweden and Russia...based on that experience and what has to be over a 100 games, I think I can make a fair assessment as to the level of European officiating in relation to NHL refs.

You want to tell me how many NHL games you have been to and what evidence you have to suggest KHL refs are, as a group, every bit as qualified as NHL refs? b/c from what I have seen, they are not.

Yours seems to be an unusual case of "I hate it so much, I can't get enough!" Your posts are always vehemently pro-Canadian (no problem with that, as I assume that you are Canadian) and seemingly always disparaging about Russia and Europe, and yet, you acknowledge that you have attended over 100 games in Russia/Europe. It's interesting that you've labeled Russian and European hockey as being inferior, and yet you always seem to be first in line when the ticket window opens.

Yes, I have traveled in the United States before. I have traveled to Minnesota and I have traveled to Dallas. I have had the opportunity to see a few NHL hockey games in my travels. In my opinion, while the NHL is clearly better at this stage, there isn't enough difference to warrant justifying Canadian refs working Canada's game in international play. Its just a power play on the part of the NHL, even in the Olympics, to say that we aren't going to play unless our refs work the games.

 

[Lapa]

If you wish to discuss Soccer, just go here.

Get back on topic and keep it civil.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

No it didn't. Slovakia didn't have to play qualifiers for the 2002 Olympics, they qualified automatically after the 1999 WCh.

They were without their best players at the Olmpics, though.

That's not true. Slovakia had to qualify and had to taxi NHL players in while the NHL season was ongoing. It was such a farce that they changed the qualification rules.

Edit: I see the confusion.

The preliminary stage, while technically part of the Olympics was a de facto qualification round as the big 6 all had byes.

 

[1Gold Standard]

Yours seems to be an unusual case of "I hate it so much, I can't get enough!" Your posts are always vehemently pro-Canadian (no problem with that, as I assume that you are Canadian) and seemingly always disparaging about Russia and Europe, and yet, you acknowledge that you have attended over 100 games in Russia/Europe. It's interesting that you've labeled Russian and European hockey as being inferior, and yet you always seem to be first in line when the ticket window opens.

Yes, I have traveled in the United States before. I have traveled to Minnesota and I have traveled to Dallas. I have had the opportunity to see a few NHL hockey games in my travels. In my opinion, while the NHL is clearly better at this stage, there isn't enough difference to warrant justifying Canadian refs working Canada's game in international play. Its just a power play on the part of the NHL, even in the Olympics, to say that we aren't going to play unless our refs work the games.

Always with the drama, Yak. never fails with you. And if you just automatically assume that any opinion that doesn't quite jive with yours is motivated by a negative bias, then that's your problem and not much I can do about that. I'm not going to waste my time arguing nonsense with you. "First in line at the ticket window" What can I tell you, a true Canadian hockey fan, no matter where he/she is on the globe, tends to gravitate to the rink. It's what we do...and while there, hell, we may as well form an opinion on what we saw there. And again, if that opinion is not shared by you, then too bad. each is entitled to their own.

and one more time about the NHL refs and the World Cup. If there is a World Cup, it will be officiated by NHL refs...and if the players who put body and limb on the line are fine with that scenario, then you should be as well... if it is good enough for them, it should be good enough for us all. but if you can't square yourself to that thought, then just don't watch...don't come here to comment on it. If you ignore it, it's like it never happened.

 

[jekoh]

That's not true. Slovakia had to qualify and had to taxi NHL players in while the NHL season was ongoing. It was such a farce that they changed the qualification rules.

Edit: I see the confusion.

The preliminary stage, while technically part of the Olympics was a de facto qualification round as the big 6 all had byes.

It was part of the Olympics, which is exactly why Slovakia decided to leave roster spots open for NHL players and play with 3 lines if that. Had it not been part of the Olympics, they would have been able to play that round with a 23-man roster and change half of it afterwards to make room for the NHLers.

 

[m4tt145]

How likely is it that there will be a World Cup in 2016?

 

[Yakushev72]

Always with the drama, Yak. never fails with you. And if you just automatically assume that any opinion that doesn't quite jive with yours is motivated by a negative bias, then that's your problem and not much I can do about that. I'm not going to waste my time arguing nonsense with you. "First in line at the ticket window" What can I tell you, a true Canadian hockey fan, no matter where he/she is on the globe, tends to gravitate to the rink. It's what we do...and while there, hell, we may as well form an opinion on what we saw there. And again, if that opinion is not shared by you, then too bad. each is entitled to their own.

and one more time about the NHL refs and the World Cup. If there is a World Cup, it will be officiated by NHL refs...and if the players who put body and limb on the line are fine with that scenario, then you should be as well... if it is good enough for them, it should be good enough for us all. but if you can't square yourself to that thought, then just don't watch...don't come here to comment on it. If you ignore it, it's like it never happened.

I love the fact that you fully express your opinion on this board. That's what the board is for. The specific nature of my question was to ask people who argue that it is necessary to have one's countrymen refereeing games in which they are involved because the consequence would be deeply inferior refereeing, how did you arrive at that conclusion? Is it because of popular mythology, or are there really sound, proven bases for excluding other refs? My opinion is that most of the advocates are just spouting the party line, and that they really don't anything about the very best KHL refs, for example. Its just the NHL laying down the law, saying this is the way its going to be, like it or not. In that case, call it what it is - a possibly interesting international exhibition, but not a best on best World competition.

 

[cutchemist42]

In terms of venues, I actually doubt Copps gets used. The NHL has fooled around with Hamilton too much in the past that I doubt they would want to help them make any more money off their arena.

 

[stars33]

I would like to see the new world cup format to have 16 teams. Using the model of 4 groups of 4 teams. Two groups having the top 8 ranked teams. Lets call these groups A1 and A2. The other two groups will have teams ranked 9 - 16. Lets call these B1 and B2. The top two teams in each A group will go directly to the quarter finals. While the bottom two teams in each A group would meet the top two teams from each B group. The two bottom teams from each B group are of course knocked out of the tournament.