Softest Leaf Forward Group Since 2000?

[Stephen]

Kessel is a great example of the silliness of the toughness debate.

Often critiqued as being one of the softest guys in the league. Also happens to be a playoff warrior who led a cup winning team in post season scoring......

So is Kessel just 'tough' in the post season?

Playoff/team/individual toughness can fall into different buckets, which can overlap but also represent different traits:

a) There's toughness like being able to make plays under increased pressure and physical duress, which a guy like Phil Kessel can, or a Brayden Point can. That usually relates to skill players and their ability to compete. That's the kind of toughness people probably want more out of Matthews, Marner, Nylander.

b) Then there's also a toughness as a weapon which your team can use to limit the effectiveness (and let's be honest) health of guys like Kessel and Point. That's Ben Chiarot actually using his physicality and hostility to put mileage on the opposition, throw them off their game, lay the lumber and make sure the opposition isn't 100% late in the series.

c) Then there's group toughness, morale aspect. Are there the right mix of personality and body types that can help encourage teammates to do a bit more of a) b) and also have the mental toughness like how willing everyone is to block shots, and do those ugly playoff things.

 

[Enniskillen]

The core is soft and timid, the rest doesn’t matter.

 

[Matty Sundin]

This core has never been the most physical. The entire team in 2019-20 was probably the least intimidating team we had though. Mentally and physically.

 

[cookie]

More than goons, we need rats on the team. In the playoffs, it felt like all of Tampa were looking forward to facewashing guys after whistles. We have someone like Bunting who can rile some feathers, and it's certainly helped him in drawing penalties, but we certainly can use more. Most Leafs players seem to focus on playing whistle to whistle, which in turn singles out and exposes the guys that are trying to engage in extracurriculars. I see Engvall developing some of this and Hirvonen should also bring this to the team in the future but none of these guys are expected to see enough ice to effectively antagonize the opposition. Maybe Robertson can be added to the list too, even if he's too tiny.

 

[LeafEgo]

As many have pointed out: we're no 'softer' than Colorado, who just won a cup.

There is a very significant difference between Mak-Landy-Rant and Matty-Marner-Willy in this category that needs to be appreciated.

Manson was the beast of the playoffs. He permanently wore down more than one player on a single shift at times.

Two of their captains don't hesitate to throw down the mits when necessary if we're going the stereotypical route.

Avs were relentless non stop, top to bottom, and their stars peaked under pressure.

Avs aren't the toughest team in the league but let's not go crazy.

 

[Knies iT]

Not even close to the softest team in the last 22 years.

Read title. Forwards.

List the softer forward groups. This is a top 3-5 group at worst.

 

[Daddy]

Someone remind me, how did we do when we were full of “rough and tough” players?

 

[cookie]

Forget toughness - we need better goaltending and an offense that isn't stymied by opposition collapsing in front of the net. With that said, Tampa looked vulnerable against us and played much better in the second round. Toronto was outplaying them but couldn't get the calls, and more importantly the saves to finish the series off. That's on Campbell, the backup that was non-existent, and the goalie coach that couldn't get either goalie back on track.

 

[Daddy]

It’s like we didn’t even win a round again or something. I can’t believe the negativity after six years of complete futility, squandering years of the best talent we’ve had perhaps in Leafs history. Can you believe the negative Nancy’s? Can you believe they’ve lost faith in a GM, coach, who have failed? Clearly we should be celebrating, what an off season it’s been too, its just nothing but amazing everywhere we look.

Its just so ridiculous to bash loyal fans who have watched disappointment after disappointment after disappointment after disappointment after disappointment after disappointment, to actually get snarky because people aren’t lighting candles at the altar of management for amassing exactly Jack squat. No, let’s praise and talk about handshakes and “should have won” and “next year”, that’s the realism, expected goals not wins.

Losers accept losing, it’s nothing to aspire to.

We should be pissed.

I love that the answer is around a stupid concept of toughness because they want to say our players don’t check, so they’re not tough.

Let’s trade all of our players that don’t hit and go back to 2012, that will show them! That will get us a cup!

 

[Dreakmur]

Someone remind me, how did we do when we were full of “rough and tough” players?

Made it past the first round a few times.

 

[Daddy]

Made it past the first round a few times.

Did they in 2012?

Can you define tough for me? When was the team “tough”?

 

[Dreakmur]

Did they in 2012?

Can you define tough for me? When was the team “tough”?

Guys that are willing to put their bodies on the line at the required times.

 

[Daddy]

Guys that are willing to put their bodies on the line at the required times.

And how do you identify when players are “putting their bodies on the line at the required times” as this is a very general statement.

Let’s get specific.

 

[mikeyz]

I don't think they are soft. Playoff teams play like the Leafs do right now. No need to change the approach.

Considering that they haven’t won a playoff round in 2 decades and have lost 6 straight in the 1st round, this isn’t the ringing endorsement that you want it to be.

 

[Dreakmur]

And how do you identify when players are “putting their bodies on the line at the required times” as this is a very general statement.

Let’s get specific.

A player knows he's going to take punishment if he makes a certain play, but he makes the play anyway.

Going to net is one of the more common situations - not only is the defenseman going to play your spine like a xylophone, but you can get dinged with a puck. Wingers are often put in a position where they have to absorb a hit from a pinching defenseman to make breakout bass. Loose puck - if you win the race, you get hit. 50/50 puck - you're getting hacked and whacked to win the battle. Blocking shots. Initiating contact in any situation. Fighting to stand up for a teammate.

Winning hockey requires players to sacrifice their bodies.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Did they in 2012?

Can you define tough for me? When was the team “tough”?

I assume you mean 2013. And frankly, form a certain point of view that 2013 team is the closest this franchise has come to a round one win since 2004. Got to OT of Game 7, which is closer than the Matthews era has gotten.

Of course, like every playoff series we’ve lost since ‘04, injuries and unclutch goaltending doomed the team.

 

[TheRumble]

This thread has gone full crazy.

Toughness as defined by HFBoards is such a vague quality based on this thread that you might as well describe it as a magical power like the Force.

Matthew Tkachuk - Strong in the Force. His midochlorians are off the charts!

Mitch Marner - Weak in the Force. Not enough midochlorians,

 

[Racer88]

This thread has gone full crazy.

Toughness as defined by HFBoards is such a vague quality based on this thread that you might as well describe it as a magical power like the Force.

Matthew Tkachuk - Strong in the Force. His midochlorians are off the charts!

Mitch Marner - Weak in the Force. Not enough midochlorians,

Nailed it………case closed

 

[A1LeafNation]

Considering that they haven’t won a playoff round in 2 decades and have lost 6 straight in the 1st round, this isn’t the ringing endorsement that you want it to be.

Avs literally played the Leafs game plan against the Bolts in the finals and said as much.

 

[Daddy]

A player knows he's going to take punishment if he makes a certain play, but he makes the play anyway.

Going to net is one of the more common situations - not only is the defenseman going to play your spine like a xylophone, but you can get dinged with a puck. Wingers are often put in a position where they have to absorb a hit from a pinching defenseman to make breakout bass. Loose puck - if you win the race, you get hit. 50/50 puck - you're getting hacked and whacked to win the battle. Blocking shots. Initiating contact in any situation. Fighting to stand up for a teammate.

Winning hockey requires players to sacrifice their bodies.

Sounds like your definition of is based off of how the other team plays lol.

So you want players that are willing to put themselves in a place where they are constantly a threat to get injured, and if they don’t, they’re weak, but if they do, they’re tough.

How useful are they if they get hurt now?

 

[Nineteen67]

And how do you identify when players are “putting their bodies on the line at the required times” as this is a very general statement.

Let’s get specific.

With under 4 minutes left in game 7 Willie was carrying the puck to the line and dumped it in the corner. He had speed and was the first one to the corner, however McDonaugh was right there too, rather than taking a hit and getting the puck to an open Spezza behind the net, Willie put the brakes on and weakly poked at it.

That happened, trailing by one goal, with 3 minutes and change left in game 7.

 

[justashadowof]

"We can use the 2022 Avs as our template for playoff success."

<looks at our forward group after the big 4>
<tears rolls down cheek>
<composes a salty post about breaking the franchise's regular season points record>
<eats an entire box of Oreo's>

 

[ACC1224]

Sounds like your definition of is based off of how the other team plays lol.

So you want players that are willing to put themselves in a place where they are constantly a threat to get injured, and if they don’t, they’re weak, but if they do, they’re tough.

How useful are they if they get hurt now?

You can hurt blocking shots, should that be avoided as well. Hockey is a tough sport, you may get hurt.
In my experience, you’re more likely to get hurt when you’re passive than when you’re aggressive.

 

[Eye of Ra]

As of today.

I can’t remember a forward group that projects to be less physical or softer than the upcoming bunch.

Even the dark ages there was always a Belak, Bell, Deveaux, Mayers, Rosehill, Brown, Orr, McLaren, Sill, Clarkson, etc. That breed of player is all but extinct and they were awful impact-wise, but so were those entire teams. This convo isn’t even limited to enforcers but any name with functional physicality (would be too many to list).

The recent rebuild iteration has always been generally soft, but at times still featured names like Kadri/Martin/Komarov/Boyle/Hyman, Simmonds/Clifford/Ritchie/Foligno, etc.

This season, no joke, we are likely looking at Bunting and Aube-Kubel as the most imposing Fs.

Sure, Simmonds/Clifford are still contracted but the expectation is that they will not be permanent parts of the everyday team with talk of a revamped 4th line.

IMO the only recent team that compares is the 2018-19 bunch with guys like Ennis, Lindholm, etc. on the 4th line and Kapanen, Johnsson, etc. on the 3rd.

Even if more transactions trickle in (i.e. Kerfoot out), I don't anticipate this changing much as a lot of the dust has settled and they would be cap relief moves for the most part.

the problem is, this physical players you bring up cant play hockey.

carl grundström is a good player who is physical, why did leafs let go of him?

 

[DarkKnight]

I love that the answer is around a stupid concept of toughness because they want to say our players don’t check, so they’re not tough.

Let’s trade all of our players that don’t hit and go back to 2012, that will show them! That will get us a cup!

I love how you’re going on some rant when the post you’re responding to doesn’t even mention toughness anywhere. I mean that’s just fantastic.