Softest Leaf Forward Group Since 2000?

[ToneDog]

It’s like we didn’t even win a round again or something. I can’t believe the negativity after six years of complete futility, squandering years of the best talent we’ve had perhaps in Leafs history. Can you believe the negative Nancy’s? Can you believe they’ve lost faith in a GM, coach, who have failed? Clearly we should be celebrating, what an off season it’s been too, its just nothing but amazing everywhere we look.

Its just so ridiculous to bash loyal fans who have watched disappointment after disappointment after disappointment after disappointment after disappointment after disappointment, to actually get snarky because people aren’t lighting candles at the altar of management for amassing exactly Jack squat. No, let’s praise and talk about handshakes and “should have won” and “next year”, that’s the realism, expected goals not wins.

Losers accept losing, it’s nothing to aspire to.

We should be pissed.

Leafs planted shills doing their best damage control. Some more embarrassing than others.

 

[DarkKnight]

Leafs planted shills doing their best damage control. Some more embarrassing than others.

We all have opinions, but if ever a fan base was justified in being negative, my word.

 

[VanW27]

Special teams have killed us for the last number playoffs, PK and PP have both been complete disasters.

Lots of talk on why in other threads so no need to go into that here.

 

[Community]

Who was the only player that laid a hit that was of obvious benefit in the playoffs?

Matthews. He laid a big hit on the forecheck, stole the puck and passed to a wide open Marner.

You don't need a 4th line banger, you just need your stars to step up, competent team defense, and good (or at least average) goaltending.

We got most of that last year, but they couldn't figure out how to get over the hump and close out the series. It wasn't physicality that made them lose and it never has been.

 

[TheRumble]

We all have opinions, but if ever a fan base was justified in being negative, my word.

It's not the negativity that is grating its the proposed solutions which are all stupid.

They amount to some combo of the following:

Trading good players for worse players because of the perception that gritty players excel in the playoffs. Tkachuk for Marner is one I've seen here alot. Which by the way if you think Tkachuk is a playoff performer check his HockeyDB page.

 

[DarkKnight]

It's not the negativity that is grating its the proposed solutions which are all stupid.

They amount to some combo of the following:

Trading good players for worse players because of the perception that gritty players excel in the playoffs. Tkachuk for Marner is one I've seen here alot. Which by the way if you think Tkachuk is a playoff performer check his HockeyDB page.

There’s also people here who think we actually had a good year, it works both ways. Delusion isn’t confined to one side.

 

[Nineteen67]

This is why we lose in thr playoffs and it's not bc of toughness. These are the stats of the last 2 games of the playoffs for the last 4 years...

1 Win 7 Losses

14 GF (1.75 GP/G) on 281 shots

27 GA (3.375 GA/G) on 248 shots

11/17 PK (64.71%)

1/20 PP (5%)

.891 SV%

That’s the results.

Why do they get those results? A perfect example is the Willie dump in with <4mins left in game 7. It was a perfectly placed dump in, but he didn’t complete the hard part of the play. Rather than using his body and taking a hit to get the puck to an open Spezza, he pulls up and let’s the D play the puck.

If they want to have playoff success that has to change.

 

[TheRumble]

There’s also people here who think we actually had a good year, it works both ways. Delusion isn’t confined to one side.

No it doesn't because we aren't suggesting that we purposely get worse by getting worse players. Nobody here is suggesting we trade Marner for another worse analytics darling. The delusional side is the one suggesting we trade a hundred dollar bill for three $20s and a $10 and unironically thinking that makes a better team.

 

[stealth1]

Hey, would you look at that! Another negative thread.

The Leafs are the bestest team in the league. Look at their expected goals for and expected goals against.

 

[Mess]

This is why we lose in the playoffs and it's not bc of toughness. These are the stats of the last 2 games of the playoffs for the last 4 years...

1 Win 7 Losses

14 GF (1.75 GP/G) on 281 shots

27 GA (3.375 GA/G) on 248 shots

11/17 PK (64.71%)

1/20 PP (5%)

.891 SV%

If you could be so kind to add the stats of the core 4 forwards stats that take up 1/2 the teams salary cap to your analysis, overlaid these same 8 series deciding games it will apply extra info to help in the conclusions as to why the Leafs loose in the playoffs.

Matthews points =
Marner points =
Tavares points =
Nylander points =

If your best players are not your best players then you aren't going very far, and toughness is the least of your problems at that point.

 

[Nineteen67]

No it doesn't because we aren't suggesting that we purposely get worse by getting worse players. Nobody here is suggesting we trade Marner for another worse analytics darling. The delusional side is the one suggesting we trade a hundred dollar bill for three $20s and a $10 and unironically thinking that makes a better team.

If you have players that won’t up their physical game and sacrifice their body, what do you do?
If the store doesn’t accept $100 bills, you might be better off with three 20s and a 10.

 

[stealth1]

No it doesn't because we aren't suggesting that we purposely get worse by getting worse players. Nobody here is suggesting we trade Marner for another worse analytics darling. The delusional side is the one suggesting we trade a hundred dollar bill for three $20s and a $10 and unironically thinking that makes a better team.

I would fine with moving Nylander and his salary to actually upgrade the bottom 6 instead of looking for league minimum guys to fill it out each year. The Leafs are great regular season team due to the the talent on the top line. In the playoffs it's the bottom 6 and depth that matters most.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Hey, would you look at that! Another negative thread.

He happens to be right. It's not "negative" if it's simply CORRECT.

 

[Trapper]

I watched Tampa try to push Colorado around and not a single Avs player back down. They clearly tried to intimidate Byram. I watched Hagel try to goat Engvall into a fight only to see Engvall not interested. I watch Tavares get punched in the face and turn and walk away. I wtch Willie afraid to go into a corner and battle for a puck. This team is easily intimated.

Stop with the knuckles bushtit. Nobody is asking for players to fight. Just show some backbone.

Everyone thinks toughness is Colton Orr.
If you look at Colorado, toughness was also the fact that you couldn’t take the puck away from guys like Landy, Nichushkin, Rantanen on the wall. They went to the dirty areas for the puck and kept it.
We usually go in there 2nd.

 

[notbias]

We tried to push Tampa around last year and the series became the tightest called series I can remember.

Also, I think Matthews threw the hardest hits that entire series.

I don't think the team got pushed around at all and we have almost the same team.

If you could be so kind to add the stats of the core 4 forwards stats that take up 1/2 the teams salary cap to your analysis, overlaid these same 8 series deciding games it will apply extra info to help in the conclusions as to why the Leafs loose in the playoffs.

Matthews points =
Marner points =
Tavares points =
Nylander points =

If your best players are not your best players then you aren't going very far, and toughness is the least of your problems at that point.

Check Kucherov in game 7's, bet you won't.

 

[Nineteen67]

Maybe we could ask this question.

Would you rather
A: have a guy pull up in the corner, down a goal in the dying minutes of game seven, and four minutes later be a plane to the world championships…
or B: have guys wearing specially fitted equipment due to injury gutting it out trying to win a Cup?

 

[francis246]

For forwards? Aube-Kubel led all forwards in hits. Forget who he plays for now though... could use a guy like that.

Other than that Kurtis Macdermid really helped the Aves in the playoffs with all 0 of his games played. Good thing he was there to goon it up.

The toughest guys on the Avs were....?

The toughest guys on the Avs were their stars. MacKinnon and Landeskog aren’t afraid to fight and will throw the body if they need to. I think that’s the difference between the leafs/Edmonton and a team like Colorado and Tampa. Colorado and Tampa’s stars don’t need protecting. They are willing to get get in your face if need be. Once the Matthews and Marner adopt that mindset we will be good

 

[notbias]

The toughest guys on the Avs were their stars. MacKinnon and Landeskog aren’t afraid to fight and will throw the body if they need to. I think that’s the difference between the leafs/Edmonton and a team like Colorado and Tampa. Colorado and Tampa’s stars don’t need protecting. They are willing to get get in your face if need be. Once the Matthews and Marner adopt that mindset we will be good

Matthews was the best hitter in the series.

 

[egd27]

The delusional side is the one suggesting we trade a hundred dollar bill for three $20s and a $10 and unironically thinking that makes a better team.

 

[nsleaf]

Hey, would you look at that! Another negative thread.

 

[andora]

This concept of getting ‘bullied’ by more physical teams never really happened the past couple years, I’m not expecting it’ll start now.

It usually starts after the first round when teams start settling in

 

[MAB1]

This is seriously the dumbest forum on HFBoards with the possible exception of the Oilers board.

Do y'all not remember the previous management group that emphasized trucluence and size? Trading up for Tyler Biggs? Running a 4th line of three goons that got caved in whenever they were on the ice? David "Wendel" Clarkson?

1) We didn't lose because we have bad defense. This team had the 7th best defense in the league in terms of shot supression last year.

2) We didn't lose because the stars didn't show up. Nylander, Tavares, Matthews, Marner assisted on or scored EVERY SINGLE GOAL, in the final 3 games of the series.

3) We didn't lose because of goaltending, at least not in Game 7 or 6. Campbell did enough to win both games.

End of the day, we lost Game 7 to Tampa because of Nick Paul - who was paid a minimum NHL salary BTW and the refs decided to call an illegal pick for the first time in an NHL playoff game.

At the end of the day, it took the Bolts over a decade after drafting Stamkos and Hedman before they ever won anything, Mackinnon won the cup in his 9th season, Ovi after a decade +. Why do Leaf fans marvel at these players and these teams and yet crucify Matthews and Marner after 6 seasons?

Hockey is a random sport with the nature of goalies, along with deflections, flukes and who gets hot at the right time. It's like Leaf fans don't realize all you can do is try your best to have an elite team every year and see what happens in the post season. One on end you have the Avs, Caps and Bolts who all had to wait around a decade after drafting their version of Matthews (Mackinnon, Ovi, Stammer). On the other hand you have teams like the Hawks and Pens who were able to win soon after drafting their stars but even the Pens had a dry spell until they acquired Kessel. And yes, there is also a category for teams like the Sharks who never win it all despite decade long regular season success.

Where this core falls is still tbd but this whole sky is falling act by the fanbase because of no playoff success in 6 years is a tad dramatic. In the first 6 seasons of Mackinnon's career, the Avs missed the playoffs 3 times and made it 3 times, never passing the 2nd round. They were so bad with Mackinnon that they drafted high enough to get Makar.

Imagine this fanbase if a Matthews led Leaf team finished dead last in the NHL? Leaf fans afford every team patience but their own, it's quite funny.

 

[Sypher04]

During Tampa’s second cup winning run:
All 4 of the following players played in all 4 series clinching games and these were their stats.

Stamkos: 1g, 1a
Kucherov: 0g, 3a
Hedman: 0g, 1a
Point: 2g, 0a

Hardly world beating. Just 3 goals combined in 4 games. It’s about depth - you simply must have it

 

[francis246]

Matthews was the best hitter in the series.

What does that have to do with being tough? Finishing a check has nothing to do with being tough. Most NHL guys finish their checks. I’m talking about being right in there in the scrums letting the opponents know that you aren’t to be taken lightly and you will fight back.

Matthews had the most amount of hits. He wasn’t the best hitter in the series.

 

[ACC1224]

Depends how you define toughness.

There are many here that don't understand what toughness means, they aren't hard to spot.