So what is plan B?

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I am curious. You have repeated this over and over. Can you explain why you think it is "inevitable" that the Kings will shed salary? Thanks.

Agentfouser pretty much covered most of it.

With Gaborik's extension, re-signing UFA's Williams, Stoll and Martinez and then giving raises to RFA's Muzzin, Pearson and Toffoli plus having plenty of room to accommodate a massive Kopitar extension is going to require someone significant to leave the team after next season.

It's a decision that Lombardi has to make, and if for some reason the Kings didn't sign Gaborik it would tell you the decision has already been made. Actually with DL's planning years ahead strategy I assume the decision has in fact been made, we will just find out this summer whether Gaborik is the odd man out or not, where if it's Williams or Richards we won't find until a year from now.
 
No, he will not. He is not that kind of a person. His agent will.
The end result is the same though, isn't it? Either we prepare to make Kopitar among the very best paid players in the league as he rightfully should be, or we just really hope that he doesn't want to be paid so much. Are you willing to risk the future of the this franchise on a player's willingness to sign a contract below market value? If Lombardi did that, it would be negligent almost to the point of criminality.

Further, if we get to a point in a few years in which we cannot meet Kopitar's reasonable demands for top dollar (let's face it, he IS among the very best players in the world) because we signed Tomas ****ing Vanek to a bloated contract, it would be mismanagement of the highest order.
 
Exactly,

You always plan to pay someone market value (and Kopi got atleast that in his last contract), if they give you a small hometown discount, great but you can't expect that and you certainly can't expect a 20% hometown discount like some are proposing. If Toews signs an extension for $9m the Kings have to make sure they have enough room to pay Kopitar that much or close to it.

If Toews gets 9m and Giroux is at 8.25m a good number for Kopi is probably 8.5m
 
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Exactly,

You always plan to pay someone market value (and Kopi got atleast that in his last contract), if they give you a small hometown discount, great but you can't expect that and you certainly can't expect a 20% hometown discount like some are proposing. If Toews signs an extension for $9m the Kings have to make sure they have enough room to pay Kopitar that much or close to it.
I'd forgotten that Pearson and Tofolli will need new contract as well, and those guys are going to be crucial in the coming years.

Really, the next two years will be fascinating, not just as from the perspective of a fan but in sense of watching how Lombardi handles the franchise in a financial sense. Next year we have the opportunity to repeat with largely the same core of players, and Lombardi will in all likelihood do everything he can to preserve and realize that opportunity. After that though, this team will have to change. Guys will get too old or too expensive, and it will be interesting (though I hope not frustrating) to see how Lombardi either preserves or reconstitutes the team. He's had a very successful run to this point, but the challenges will change.
 
After next season, we have a bunch of key players hitting RFA or UFA status, and many will be due raises. That includes Stoll, Williams, Muzzin, and Martinez. We will have to make room to accommodate them, and then the year following that Kopitar's contract is up. He will most certainly command a big raise, and we must pay him basically whatever he asks for. If we win the Cup next year and Kopitar has a year and playoff with a similar or better performance--not exactly likely, but not entirely unlikely either--then he could go into contract negotiations as arguably the single most important player on the roster.

So, yeah, cap space will be important in the next few years.

This season the cap is expected to go to roughly $71 million. Assuming a similar jump the next off-season, we are talking a cap of roughly $77.5 million.

If King's cap hit goes to $1.7 million, Gabby is $6 million, McNabb is say $1 million and we either reup Mitchell or replace him for his $3.5 million cap hit, we'll be at a overall cap hit of $70.2 million roughly.

That'll leave roughly $7.3 million (plus their current cap hits) to resign Stoll, Williams, Muzzin and Martinez as well as Jones, Regehr, Toffoli, Clifford, Pearson and Nolan.

Of that group, who is really likely to need a raise? Stoll and Regehr, certainly not. Regehr is likely worth his current $3 million cap hit, but not a raise and Stoll really should get a salary decrease, like he did following his last contract. I like Stoll a lot but he's a character guy who is good at checking and faceoffs, something that's worth in the $2.5 million range, but let's say we give him $2.9 million simply to not disrupt team chemistry.

Nolan and Clifford would have a hard time arguing for much if any cap hit increase either.

Williams meanwhile will be nearly 35 and as great as that Conn Smythe trophy is, he also only had 43 points this season and hasn't top 60 points in a season in nearly a decade. I can't see Williams costing much more than $4 million unless he repeats his playoff performance again next year and can hit UFA off a monster boon.

I expect Toffoli and Pearson to see some raise as well, but not much unless one of them really breaks out. A bridge contract of two years paying just over $1 million a year seems more likely, again barring either of them bursting out for a huge season. Don't forget DL does more bridge deals than long term deals, see O'Sullivan, Voynov, Johnson, Quick, Bernier, I believe Cammalleri as well. Other than a few guys like Doughty, when you come off your ELC or even your second contract DL makes you earn a big riase or long term deal. Pearson and Toffoli shouldn't have arbitration rigts either so there's no leverage unless someone gives a RFA offer, and likely neither will even reach free agency.

So it really comes down to Martinez and Muzzin and again, is this really about performance or is it cup hangover? Both were good in the playoffs but they combined for 46 points in the regular season and based off regular season play, neither is worth $4 million like I've heard bantied about here. If they can play in the regular season like they did in the playoffs then maybe, but we've seen a guy do great in the playoffs then turn in a piss poor year the next season before, look at Martinez following the 2012 playoffs for example.

It isn't as dire as everyone thinks.


Austrian Coach Shocked by Team's Heavy Partying before Final Loss

Vanek was captain of the Austrian Olympic team that partied until 6:00 AM before the night before getting blown out by Kopitar's Slovenia team, 4 - 0.

The knock I'd always heard on Gaborik was his durability, not his character.

Cool, didn't know this. Thanks.
 
This season the cap is expected to go to roughly $71 million. Assuming a similar jump the next off-season, we are talking a cap of roughly $77.5 million.
...
It isn't as dire as everyone thinks.

That's a big assumption though, isn't it? Would you gamble the future of the franchise on that assumption? What reasons do we have to believe that assumption has a reasonable chance of being true, and what chance is big enough that you begin to act now as if it will be true? A 50% chance? 80%? 95%?

That's what it comes down to, right? It's ultimately an assessment of how much the cap will go up; I wouldn't bank on it going up that much. If it does, then you have extra money to play with. But, if you act like it's going to and then it doesn't, you find yourself in a real crunch.

Edit: I should note that I'm not fundamentally opposed to the idea that the cap will go up that much, and I'm willing to be convinced that it will. I just have not seen any good evidence that there's a good reason to think that. So far, any discussions of this that I've seen have seemed more like either an assumption that the present conditions will continue--which seems unfounded--or based on purely wishful thinking. You're clearly in the former category from the last post, but perhaps you could explain why you think the cap will continue to go up at the present rate.
 
That's a big assumption though, isn't it? Would you gamble the future of the franchise on that assumption? What reasons do we have to believe that assumption has a reasonable chance of being true, and what chance is big enough that you begin to act now as if it will be true? A 50% chance? 80%? 95%?

That's what it comes down to, right? It's ultimately an assessment of how much the cap will go up; I wouldn't bank on it going up that much. If it does, then you have extra money to play with. But, if you act like it's going to and then it doesn't, you find yourself in a real crunch.

How is anyone gambling the future of the organization on that? No one is. There's plenty of contingency is what I wrote, first one being to let Stoll walk and recoup his $3.25 million which would settle a lot of the problems of resign anyone should the cap for some reason not jump much.

But if history is any indiciation, the cap will rise, and rise significantly. The cap in 2005-2006 was $39.0 million, 2006-2007 $44 million, 2007-2008 $50.3 million, 2008-2009 $56.7 million, 2009-2010 $56.8 million, 2010-2011 $59.4 million, 2011-2012 $64.3 million, 2012-2013 $70.2 million

It dropped to $64.3 million as part of the CBA negotiations which cost us half a season last year. That was a prearranged things not related to the formula from what I recall, and now this year it is supposed to be roughly $71 million.

On average the cap has gone up something like over six per cent on average. Could there be a down year like in 2009-2010 where the cap barely moved? Certainly. But odds are significantly infavor of an increase, as are league revenues which have been going up. The lone thing dragging the cap down at all right now appears to be the Canadian dollar, which is again dropping.

So if I had to put a percentage on it going up to approximately $77.5 million (give or take $1 million), I'd say anywhere from 70% to 90% right now.

The bottom line is the Kings won't be in a crunch. At worst they have to walk away from someone such as Stoll in all likelihood, and as much as I like Stoll what he brings can be found elsewhere.
 
I think you drastically undervalue how much Pearson and Toffoli have a chance to make.

Once the playoffs rolled around and they weren't stuck playing with offensive blackholes like Lewis, Clifford, Richards and Stoll they produced at a much better level.

Toffoli's playoff production with almost no PP time was 7G, 7A, 14 pts over 26 games, that is 22G,22A, 44 Pts over a full 82.

Pearson's again with almost no PP time was 4G, 8A, 12 Pts over 24 games that projects to 14G, 27A, 41 Pts.

And younger players generally progress so it is not out of the realm of possibility that they could both be close to 50 point players this season, in which case they are not signing for a little over a million.

Even if the cap goes up to what you say, the Kings would have nowhere close to enough money to re-sign everyone.

Again, one of Gaborik, Richards, Voynov or Williams will be gone from this team following this season (and if it's Gaborik and possibly Voynov it would be this summer)
 
I expect Toffoli and Pearson to see some raise as well, but not much unless one of them really breaks out. A bridge contract of two years paying just over $1 million a year seems more likely, again barring either of them bursting out for a huge season. Don't forget DL does more bridge deals than long term deals, see O'Sullivan, Voynov, Johnson, Quick, Bernier, I believe Cammalleri as well. Other than a few guys like Doughty, when you come off your ELC or even your second contract DL makes you earn a big riase or long term deal. Pearson and Toffoli shouldn't have arbitration rigts either so there's no leverage unless someone gives a RFA offer, and likely neither will even reach free agency.

So it really comes down to Martinez and Muzzin and again, is this really about performance or is it cup hangover? Both were good in the playoffs but they combined for 46 points in the regular season and based off regular season play, neither is worth $4 million like I've heard bantied about here. If they can play in the regular season like they did in the playoffs then maybe, but we've seen a guy do great in the playoffs then turn in a piss poor year the next season before, look at Martinez following the 2012 playoffs for example.

Thinking more about "bridge" contracts, I wonder if, after next season, Lombardi doesn't try to get these guys onto longer-term "second" contracts at favorable rates. Like, if Toffoli produces 20+ goals next year, not unlikely, perhaps Lombardi tries to lock him at $2.5million/year for three or four years.

As for Muzzin and Martinez, in Muzzin's case it's entirely likely that he'll put up better numbers play more minutes than Voynov. Sure, Lombardi can say, "That's because you play with Drew Doughty," and it would be partially true, but Muzzin would still have a strong case to have a contract at least as good as Voynov's.
 
Agentfouser pretty much covered most of it.

With Gaborik's extension, re-signing UFA's Williams, Stoll and Martinez and then giving raises to RFA's Muzzin, Pearson and Toffoli plus having plenty of room to accommodate a massive Kopitar extension is going to require someone significant to leave the team after next season.

It's a decision that Lombardi has to make, and if for some reason the Kings didn't sign Gaborik it would tell you the decision has already been made. Actually with DL's planning years ahead strategy I assume the decision has in fact been made, we will just find out this summer whether Gaborik is the odd man out or not, where if it's Williams or Richards we won't find until a year from now.

Tough decisions ahead, for sure. I think it is more important to get Muzzin and Martinez sigend on long term deals, than it is to sign Stoll and Williams. Stoll and Williams are signed through this year and for 2015-16, Shore can take Stoll's place and another can take Williams' place. Maybe Mersch by then. More important to lock up your #2 and #4 YOUNG defensemen, than 2 (albeit key) 33 and 34 year old 3rd line players. It would be a mistake to give Willimams and Stoll 2 more years at apx 3+ million a year at that age. Especially since Shore is capable now and Williams will just have to be replaced. With 1 3rd/4th line player (Richards) already getting 5+ million, no way you can afford more for bottom 6 players.

AND, Muzzin and Martinez are young and both improving each year and not easy to replace. Get them both locked up now. If the cap was 80 million, fine, add 1 more yr
to both Williams and Stoll's current deal (if they would add 1 more year to current deal) but it's not.
 
I think you drastically undervalue how much Pearson and Toffoli have a chance to make.

Once the playoffs rolled around and they weren't stuck playing with offensive blackholes like Lewis, Clifford, Richards and Stoll they produced at a much better level.

Toffoli's playoff production with almost no PP time was 7G, 7A, 14 pts over 26 games, that is 22G,22A, 44 Pts over a full 82.

Pearson's again with almost no PP time was 4G, 8A, 12 Pts over 24 games that projects to 14G, 27A, 41 Pts.

And younger players generally progress so it is not out of the realm of possibility that they could both be close to 50 point players this season, in which case they are not signing for a little over a million.

Even if the cap goes up to what you say, the Kings would have nowhere close to enough money to re-sign everyone.

Again, one of Gaborik, Richards, Voynov or Williams will be gone from this team following this season (and if it's Gaborik and possibly Voynov it would be this summer)

And again, you are doomsdaying it.

Firstly, Toffoli and Pearson need to do that in the regular season, not just playoffs. Can they? Certainly, but look at the regular season numbers, hardly worthly of much over the $1 million mark. Let them prove it then worry about it.

Secondly, I love how you leave Stoll off that list. He makes $3.25 mill cap hit, which as I said would likely be the first to go if there is any extra cash needed. That's $1.6 million per for Toffoli and Pearson, on top of the $750,000 or so they got in cap costs this year, meaning if DL lets stoll walk and spreads the money to lthose two they are resigned without any cap increase. Anyone that is brought in to replace Stoll, like Vey for instance, costs likely $900,000 or less. If we really need to add a Stoll type before the playoffs, that's the trade deadline is for.

There might be a cap issue, I never disputed that, but it is nowhere near a situation where LA would have " nowhere close to enough money to re-sign everyone."
 
Thinking more about "bridge" contracts, I wonder if, after next season, Lombardi doesn't try to get these guys onto longer-term "second" contracts at favorable rates. Like, if Toffoli produces 20+ goals next year, not unlikely, perhaps Lombardi tries to lock him at $2.5million/year for three or four years.

As for Muzzin and Martinez, in Muzzin's case it's entirely likely that he'll put up better numbers play more minutes than Voynov. Sure, Lombardi can say, "That's because you play with Drew Doughty," and it would be partially true, but Muzzin would still have a strong case to have a contract at least as good as Voynov's.

He could, again not disputing that. But, as per Martinez in the 2012 playoffs, it's another thing to go and do it for 82 games the following year. Muzzin needs to prove it wasn't a fluke and I am skeptical he will. I like the kid, but I see his cap hit in the $2.5 million range, not the $4.5 million range which is what he'd need to go over Voynov. He hasn't done anything to warrant a salary that high outside of 26 playoff games, and even then it is debatable.

Toffoli, I can agree on.
 
This really isn't that big of a problem... replace vets with young contracts when the cap forces it. Regehr/Stoll/Williams is 10M... Hell Kings just won a cup with Pearson/Toffoli in the line up and Muzzin on a top pairing. I'm not worried about adding youth into the line up.

Only way Martinez stays is if he wants to remain a 3rd pairing guy with 3rd pairing money. That will probably fix the "having to sign both Martinez/Muzzn" problem.

Muzzin: Conspiracy theorist in me tells me there could be a problem where Muzzin wants #2 money (5M) and DL trades him. After all DL would rather tame a tiger then paint stripes on a kitten... was Muzzin the kitten?

Vanek... do not want. Terrible Olympics/Playoffs

As far as Plan B if Gaborik doesn't come back. With Pearson starting next year in the AHL :laugh: (joke... but could totally see this) King/Nolan/... Clifford gets 2 games.... This is the regular season Kings we're talking about.
 
He could, again not disputing that. But, as per Martinez in the 2012 playoffs, it's another thing to go and do it for 82 games the following year. Muzzin needs to prove it wasn't a fluke and I am skeptical he will. I like the kid, but I see his cap hit in the $2.5 million range, not the $4.5 million range which is what he'd need to go over Voynov. He hasn't done anything to warrant a salary that high outside of 26 playoff games, and even then it is debatable.

Toffoli, I can agree on.
Well, I guess that in the end it comes down to disagreements over the future of the cap and what our young players and free agents will command.

Great thread today though, gotta say. An important question and exellent discussion.
 
Well, I guess that in the end it comes down to disagreements over the future of the cap and what our young players and free agents will command.

Great thread today though, gotta say. An important question and exellent discussion.

Agreed. I enjoy following the trends of DL. He's played the cap better than anyone else. Outside of Brown's limited NTC, no one has one and I think we are the only team with that status. How he manages to build a cup winning team without any real constraints on his ability to make moves is really impressive. Hopefully we don't have cap concerns as you and Herby suggest and if we do it is because of a great things such as Toffoli turning into Jeff Carter II
 
PLAN B:

sign Iginla to a one year deal.. reunite sutter and jarome.

Brown - Kopitar - Toffoli
Pearson - Carter - Iginla
King - Stoll - Williams
Clifford - Richards - Lewis

give kopitar our emerging sniper.. put iginla w/ carter to add some toughness to that 2nd line.


Ideally i want gaborik to sign... but Iginla did list the kings as one of the 3 teams he would accept a
trade to when he was on the block the last time. (pens / bruins / kings) he's already played for the
bruins and pens... now it's time to get in his final go at it w/ the kings.. though he may be a jinx :/
 
I think we can all agree that Slava deal is a mistake that Lombardi won't be making again with Muzzin/Toffoli/Pearson.

I at least hope that Lombardi learned from it. Also we don't even know if Pearson is a top six player.

Toffoli/Pearson are entering that dreaded Sophomore season, and short off-seasons to boot.

They both could struggle nightly next season, actually it's likely they will.
 
I think we can all agree that Slava deal is a mistake that Lombardi won't be making again with Muzzin/Toffoli/Pearson.

I at least hope that Lombardi learned from it. Also we don't even know if Pearson is a top six player.

Toffoli/Pearson are entering that dreaded Sophomore season, and short off-seasons to boot.

They both could struggle nightly next season, actually it's likely they will.

How is the Voynov deal a mistake? He's a young top4, 24 year old Dman that only just finished his 1st full NHL season and made an Olympic team. He has played 214 games in the last 2 seasons, over that same 2 season, Doughty has only played 176 games. That's 38 extra games that Voynov has played over Doughty.

And I know HF loves to argue with points so....

Voynov:

12-13 points= reg. 25 pts in 48 games / ply. 13 pts in 18 games
13-14 points= reg. 34 pts in 82 games / ply. 9 pts in 26 games

Doughty:

12-13 points= reg. 22 pts in 48 games / ply. 5 pts in 18 games
13-14 points= reg. 37 pts in 78 games / ply. 18 pts in 26 games

So really, he hasn't been all that bad. Not bad for a guy making just over 4 million compared to a guy making 7 million. His deal will be a steal here in the next 2 years and he will still have 3 more years left on the deal. But for some reason he has a so-so year and "he is horrible on a bad contract that needs to go." :shakehead I rather have him have a bad year and the kings win the cup, than have him have a great year and the kings fail in the playoffs.

Only on HF!!
 
How is the Voynov deal a mistake?

Because there are a lot of people on this board who are stuck to the dated notion of a second contract being a bridge contract to the third contract where the guy cashes in. But the NHL has gotten away from that, and guys who earn it are getting significant money on their second contract.

Slava had a terrible year, no one disputes that, but as a 22/23 year old defenseman he had 25 points in 48 games in the regular season and followed it up with 6G and 13 points in 18 playoff games and was the Kings best playoff defender. What did people expect him to get paid?

Same thing with Pearson and Toffoli, if they have 45-50 points this season what do people think, they are going to say, well damn we are only 22 we are going to sign for 1.5 million? ya goodluck with that.
 
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