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Since joining the Canucks in 2019, JT Miller is 10th in league scoring

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One of the best trades in franchise history.

This team goes as JT goes. Always has, don't expect that to change.
 
Hoglander said:
The first was conditional, so clearly there was thought put into the deal. Although, maybe you need me to explain how a conditional pick works.

Your imaginary roulette scenario, and the made up odds accompanying it, is cringe. Your odds are silly, and "last 5 dollars" represents what, exactly? Their last 1st round pick ever? Lol.

Your analogy could technically be applied to every trade ever made. If good trades are just lucky, then are bad trades simply unlucky? No skill or thought process involved? Or (I already know the answer to this) does this only apply to Benning? It's like I said, you've created a no-win scenario, based on your hate of the guy.

Your take is awful, and heavily influenced by your hate of the guy. Time to get over your Benning PTSD.
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If covid didn’t stop the NHL season the canucks miss the playoffs that season. The team was trending down, then we got a bunch of injuries.

As stated the trade turned out very well for us, and Tampa. That doesn’t mean it was a trade the team should be making at the time, and the team got 100% lucky
 
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strattonius said:
In hindsight of course JT Miller has been worth every penny of that trade. It was an absolute homerun.

However I still believe the philosophy behind that trade was stupid at the time. Firstly, JT Miller had upside but no one predicted his explosion of development over the next few years. Secondly, the Canucks were a lottery team two seasons prior, then around 24th place the offseason we moved the 1st for Miller. It had one year protection or something but the chances we bottomed out the next 2 years was making a crazy gamble. This wasn't trading a typical 'late 1st' type deal - this 1st could have been a lottery ball.

None of this is to say I don't love JT Miller. I'm glad history and Benning's idiocy payed off if only 1 time but I hate it when people criticize others that didn't like the trade at the time. There was good reason it was a dumb move.
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It’s a calculated risk, chalk it up to a pro scouting win.

You don’t trade the player just for what he is today rather for potential upside, fit with the team etc.
 
racerjoe said:
If covid didn’t stop the NHL season the canucks miss the playoffs that season. The team was trending down, then we got a bunch of injuries.

As stated the trade turned out very well for us, and Tampa. That doesn’t mean it was a trade the team should be making at the time, and the team got 100% lucky
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Possibly, but you speak as if you know how the rest of the season would have played out. You don't know though, you can only guess. That's fantasy land talk, unless you can tell the future. Teams go through ups and downs over the coarse of a season.

Even so, there is a reason the condition was applied to the 1st - which proves that the poster I was talking to, was wrong about management putting no thought into the deal, and completely debunks their ridiculous imagined roulette scenario.

And if we are going to play "what if", well what if that season did play out differently, like you imagine it would have? It would have moved the pick to the next year instead, there would have been no covid Canadian division season, the offseason would have been looked at differently resulting in different moves... and so on.

This "%100 lucky nonsense, is exactly that: nonsense. I prefer logic and reality, while it seems you prefer alternate realities and roulette daydreams.
 
racerjoe said:
If covid didn’t stop the NHL season the canucks miss the playoffs that season. The team was trending down, then we got a bunch of injuries.

As stated the trade turned out very well for us, and Tampa. That doesn’t mean it was a trade the team should be making at the time, and the team got 100% lucky
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Let's be honest if the season didn't end with covid, the nucks would have had to forfeit pick in 2021 which meant no oel trade. Blessing in disguise.
 
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Hoglander said:
Possibly, but you speak as if you know how the rest of the season would have played out. You don't know though, you can only guess. That's fantasy land talk, unless you can tell the future. Teams go through ups and downs over the coarse of a season.

Even so, there is a reason the condition was applied to the 1st - which proves that the poster I was talking to, was wrong about management putting no thought into the deal, and completely debunks their ridiculous imagined roulette scenario.

And if we are going to play "what if", well what if that season did play out differently, like you imagine it would have? It would have moved the pick to the next year instead, there would have been no covid Canadian division season, the offseason would have been looked at differently resulting in different moves... and so on.

This "%100 lucky nonsense, is exactly that: nonsense. I prefer logic and reality, while it seems you prefer alternate realities and roulette daydreams.
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We ended the 2020 season 9th in the west… this isn’t fantasy…
 
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racerjoe said:
We ended the 2020 season 9th in the west… this isn’t fantasy…
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Well firstly, the point of my initial response was that it was ridiculous to say management put zero thought into the trade, when they protected the 1st...

As for the standings, let's not stretch things out of context. The Canucks were actually tied for 8th in the west in points, and not everybody had played the same amount of games. For instance, the 6th place team had only 2 more points, while Van had 2 games in hand. Things weren't equal at the time of the pause, hence the play-in round.

Even so, dropping a couple spots would hardly have been the end of the world. The pick was conditional, and if we are going to pretend that things would have happened differently, and that the Canucks would have fallen down the standings while everyone else kept winning, then it's simply unfair to assume that the following covid offseason and season, would have turned out exactly as it originally had.

You also claim "%100 lucky", but then use injuries as a factor in the Canucks slumping just before the pause. Seems like the opposite of lucky, to me.
 
Hoglander said:
Well firstly, the point of my initial response was that it was ridiculous to say management put zero thought into the trade, when they protected the 1st...

As for the standings, let's not stretch things out of context. The Canucks were actually tied for 8th in the west in points, and not everybody had played the same amount of games. For instance, the 6th place team had only 2 more points, while Van had 2 games in hand. Things weren't equal at the time of the pause, hence the play-in round.

Even so, dropping a couple spots would hardly have been the end of the world. The pick was conditional, and if we are going to pretend that things would have happened differently, and that the Canucks would have fallen down the standings while everyone else kept winning, then it's simply unfair to assume that the following covid offseason and season, would have turned out exactly as it originally had.

You also claim "%100 lucky", but then use injuries as a factor in the Canucks slumping just before the pause. Seems like the opposite of lucky, to me.
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So excuses....

The trade turned out well for us. There is no denying that Miller has been an absolute beast for u us. That doesn't mean that the thought process was correct which was the bottom line.

There is no doubt at times teams need to start making trades like the one with Miller... their is just no doubt it was also a bad thought process. I never claimed no thought... bad thought. Being a good GM is about knowing where in your teams cycle you are. Its also about good pro scouting, and While Miller was good pro scouting... there is also no doubt Benning was terrible at both those things.
 
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Rabid Ranger said:
The plan for the U.S. at the Four Nations tournament is to play Miller with the Tkachuk brothers.
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Just curious where did you hear that from? I haven't been keeping up much with what's happening with the tournament.

If that line ends up happening I will be watching US games just for that line
 
racerjoe said:
So excuses....

The trade turned out well for us. There is no denying that Miller has been an absolute beast for u us. That doesn't mean that the thought process was correct which was the bottom line.

There is no doubt at times teams need to start making trades like the one with Miller... their is just no doubt it was also a bad thought process. I never claimed no thought... bad thought. Being a good GM is about knowing where in your teams cycle you are. Its also about good pro scouting, and While Miller was good pro scouting... there is also no doubt Benning was terrible at both those things.
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On one hand we have what MAY have happened IF things played out differently, all the while exaggerating the standings and thinking everything positive was %100 luck. On the other, we have what actually happened in real life: an awesome trade... and you're still trying to paint it in a bad light. I'm not the one making excuses here...
 
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racerjoe said:
So excuses....

The trade turned out well for us. There is no denying that Miller has been an absolute beast for u us. That doesn't mean that the thought process was correct which was the bottom line.

There is no doubt at times teams need to start making trades like the one with Miller... their is just no doubt it was also a bad thought process. I never claimed no thought... bad thought. Being a good GM is about knowing where in your teams cycle you are. Its also about good pro scouting, and While Miller was good pro scouting... there is also no doubt Benning was terrible at both those things.
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Exactly. The thought process of the trade was completely stupid at the time. Hoglander is trying to nail in everyone's head that 'Miller good so trade good hurr durr'. It's not black and white like that.
 
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racerjoe said:
So excuses....

The trade turned out well for us. There is no denying that Miller has been an absolute beast for u us. That doesn't mean that the thought process was correct which was the bottom line.

There is no doubt at times teams need to start making trades like the one with Miller... their is just no doubt it was also a bad thought process. I never claimed no thought... bad thought. Being a good GM is about knowing where in your teams cycle you are. Its also about good pro scouting, and While Miller was good pro scouting... there is also no doubt Benning was terrible at both those things.
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I've always argued the Miller trade was the absolute epitome of the saying, "even a broken clock is right twice."

Not only were we not in a position to go big game hunting back then, we paid a premium price despite Tampa being desperate to move salary. In this case, Benning's insistence on paying top dollar to "get his guy" worked out but there was a very real scenario Miller stay exactly who he was at the time and we look like fools.

After all, we have a litany of examples where he tried the exact same approach only for it to fail miserably.
 
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AlainVigneaultsGum said:
Hated the trade at the time, hated him for years after, thought he was a douche.

The trade of course turned out to be a (very) rare Benning W. Still not my favorite player but I like him a lot now. Glad to have him.
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hated the trade at the time

hated the extension even more

reminds me of following bertuzzi and to a lesser degree kesler. all three guys seem like moody jerks and i found them hard to root for most of the time. the exception is that brief run when bertuzzi was the most dominant player in the league, or when kesler is beastmoding and beating nashville all by himself, or when JT has his head on straight and is playing committed mistake free two way hockey while scoring clutch goals at an all-star rate. can’t hate that. but most of the time i kind of just roll my eyes at the vocal segments of the fanbase mancrushing on them.
 
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SillyRabbit said:
Only nine players have scored more points than Miller since the 2019-2020 season, when he joined the Canucks.

To provide the full context, he's 19th in P/GP during that time (min 200 GP).

Pretty impressive how consistent he's been with his offensive production.
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I remember at the time as a neutral fan I kind of didn’t get the trade. I liked Miller but he wasn’t anything special in Tampa. Turns out it was a franchise altering trade that is right up there with once of of the best Canucks trades of all time. There is a lesson to be learned to. Where can you find assets that are pushed down the line up that can thrive when given better roles.

All hail Jim Benning!!
 
Hoglander said:
On one hand we have what MAY have happened IF things played out differently, all the while exaggerating the standings and thinking everything positive was %100 luck. On the other, we have what actually happened in real life: an awesome trade... and you're still trying to paint it in a bad light. I'm not the one making excuses here...
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Exaggerating the standings... you mean saying exactly how they were... we finished 9th in the west.
 
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