Post-Game Talk: Sid is a Venomous Beast that You Can't Kill with a Broom

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think it's safe to say most of us are content with the line in the regular season. A playoff series against a dedicated, tight-checking opponent is another matter.

Might be interesting to note how Sid (and by association, his line) does against the better defensive clubs versus the weaker clubs. This could give a better indication of how that line will produce in the playoffs, if you remove the "weak" teams.

Sid versus the top 7 defenses in the Eastern Conference (teams with least GA):
12 GP, 15 points

Sid versus the bottom 7 defenses in the Eastern Conference:
16 GP, 32 points

 

[mpp9]

It's a laughable premise that the way to stop Sid's line is to swarm him and forget about his linemates. Crosby will exploit any opening the defense gives him if they overcommit to him and it's the reason he has more assists than almost anybody else has points.

Everybody will be scoring less in the playoffs in all likelihood so you're not going out on a huge limb by saying they won't achieve the same success. I would bet that as long as we are in the playoffs, Sid is at or near the top of the scoring lead. We can count even strength points only if you'd like.

It's about taking away time and space. There's less of it in the playoffs. It's easier to key in on individual players in that circumstance. Teams use dedicated 5 man units to use in certain match ups.

If you believe that its as simple as Sid drawing defenders to him and finding Dupuis open in the slot, more power to you.

 

[OnMyOwn]

Everyone forgets the hug fest gill put on sid in the playoffs? Absolutely eliminated everything from his line.

If he gets another guy that can carry and dish the puck, teams will screw themselves by over committing to him. Right nowthere's only a slight chance they screw themselves.

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

Yep. I'm just not convinced that Kunitz and Dupuis can be as opportunistic as they'll need to be or handle being mail-carriers if and when Sid gets swarmed by a quality opponent over a 7 game series. It will be the Montreal series all over again - the other team will narrow their focus to the guy that the play always runs through and dare his wingers to make them pay, and we'll have flubbed chances galore. Hell, that line didn't even look very good against Philly.

Sid's line struggled against Montreal because he had a 40 year old washed up veteran flanking him who could no longer keep up. I don't think that'll be an issue here.

I don't think you just look at box scores. I only think that too much emphasis is being placed on regular season success when we have seen first-hand the trouble the Pens have encountered when relying on Kunitz and Dupuis flanking Sid in a playoff environment.

We've seen it first hand? When? I hope we're not cherry-picking individual regular season games to prove our point.

I'm fine with Geno's line. He has a proven clinical finisher and a creative element in Bennett.

I like the line, I'm just not sold on it without seeing them play for an extended period. I'm much more confident in Kunitz - Sid - Dupuis in the playoffs than those three as it stands now. Hopefully Malkin gets healthy soon and we can get a better idea before the deadline if it's a line we want to stick with.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The problem is that we have two stars on our second line who are struggling to produce at even strength because they haven't had a competent third wheel. Their line needs to be upgraded first and foremost. And with the market being what it is, I doubt we'll want to shell out what it's going to take to grab another another top 6 forward that would be a clear upgrade on Dupuis.

Bennett has 4 points in 6 games playing in the top 6. He's fine. He's a great fit for both Neal and Geno. He's playing smart defense. He can carry the puck well. He can pass and cycle and he works his ass off all game long.

That said, he is a rookie. He could hit a wall. Even more reason to bring in a top 6 wing. If he plays like he has lately, I'd rather keep him up and put Dupuis on the third. If he falls off, we have a plan for that.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Sid's line struggled against Montreal because he had a 40 year old washed up veteran flanking him who could no longer keep up. I don't think that'll be an issue here.

I think there's more to it than that. And I think Shero pursuing the likes of Parise in the off-season suggests he thinks there's more to it than that, too.

We've seen it first hand? When? I hope we're not cherry-picking individual regular season games to prove our point.

We've seen Sid's line struggle vs. Montreal and Philly with Kunitz on one incarnation and Dupes on the other. The common thread is that those lines - with no "self-starters" aside from Sid - have had trouble at even strength (production in the Philly circus notwithstanding).

I like the line, I'm just not sold on it without seeing them play for an extended period. I'm much more confident in Kunitz - Sid - Dupuis in the playoffs than those three as it stands now. Hopefully Malkin gets healthy soon and we can get a better idea before the deadline if it's a line we want to stick with.

You're right, it is a small sample size. But a quality addition to Sid's line could allow Kunitz to slide to Malkin if Bennett encounters some rookie troubles.

 

[Ogrezilla]

good lord Kunitz should not go with Geno anytime soon

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

good lord Kunitz should not go with Geno anytime soon

Hey, just spitballin'. If we were to get Iggy and Bennett struggles, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Hey, just spitballin'. If we were to get Iggy and Bennett struggles, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.

fair enough. Dupuis and Iginla wouldn't be too bad I suppose

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

I think there's more to it than that. And I think Shero pursuing the likes of Parise in the off-season suggests he thinks there's more to it than that, too.

Parise is a rare talent that doesn't often get to free agency. I don't think there's much more to it than that, but if you do, care to make an avatar bet on it?

We've seen Sid's line struggle vs. Montreal and Philly with Kunitz on one incarnation and Dupes on the other. The common thread is that those lines - with no "self-starters" aside from Sid - have had trouble at even strength (production in the Philly circus notwithstanding).

I don't think it's fair to compare those other lines as equal or similar to the current Sid - Kunitz - Dupuis. Last year I believe we had Sullivan flanking Sid, who was still recovering from a concussion and wasn't playing at the level he is now. Despite that, their production in the series was solid. I can't stress enough how bad Guerin was in that Montreal series. He was a complete anchor in every aspect of the game. Dupuis may not have great offensive talent, but he won't be behind the play the way Guerin constantly was, and he'll be providing so much more to that line in other areas.

The other part to that is that Dupuis and Kunitz are playing at the highest level of their careers, and have been successful on other lines recently as well - Kunitz with Malkin and Dupuis with Staal.

You're right, it is a small sample size. But a quality addition to Sid's line could allow Kunitz to slide to Malkin if Bennett encounters some rookie troubles.

If Kunitz isn't a self starter, Neal certainly isn't. With Geno having none of these proclaimed 'self starters' to flank him, does that mean he is doomed to fail? I mean, one could even say we saw it already in the Philly series.

Not that I believe it, just going along with some of the logic I'm seeing thrown around.

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

It's about taking away time and space. There's less of it in the playoffs. It's easier to key in on individual players in that circumstance. Teams use dedicated 5 man units to use in certain match ups.

If you believe that its as simple as Sid drawing defenders to him and finding Dupuis open in the slot, more power to you.

I'm just not concerned that the best cycling line in the league is going to have problems in the playoffs because teams are going to attempt to take time and space away, or pay extra attention to Sid, as if both of these things aren't happening already.

 

[ObsessedCreative*]

The problem is that we have two stars on our second line who are struggling to produce at even strength because they haven't had a competent third wheel. Their line needs to be upgraded first and foremost. And with the market being what it is, I doubt we'll want to shell out what it's going to take to grab another another top 6 forward that would be a clear upgrade on Dupuis.

No they don't BB has looked amazing in that spot and has only played what 4 games with them until geno got hurt again?!

 

[ObsessedCreative*]

Bennett has 4 points in 6 games playing in the top 6. He's fine. He's a great fit for both Neal and Geno. He's playing smart defense. He can carry the puck well. He can pass and cycle and he works his ass off all game long.

That said, he is a rookie. He could hit a wall. Even more reason to bring in a top 6 wing. If he plays like he has lately, I'd rather keep him up and put Dupuis on the third. If he falls off, we have a plan for that.

this. all of this.

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

Look, I like Bennett, but it's a little rich to suggest their line is fine on account of 4 games of success when Kunitz - Crosby - Dupuis have been murdering the league at a near historic pace going all the way back to 2010-2011.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Might be interesting to note how Sid (and by association, his line) does against the better defensive clubs versus the weaker clubs. This could give a better indication of how that line will produce in the playoffs, if you remove the "weak" teams.

Sid versus the top 7 defenses in the Eastern Conference (teams with least GA):
12 GP, 15 points

Sid versus the bottom 7 defenses in the Eastern Conference:
16 GP, 32 points

That is interesting. Getting greedy here, but how are Dupes and Kunitz's totals over that span?

Parise is a rare talent that doesn't often get to free agency. I don't think there's much more to it than that, but if you do, care to make an avatar bet on it?

What sort of avy bet you thinking?

I don't think it's fair to compare those other lines as equal or similar to the current Sid - Kunitz - Dupuis. Last year I believe we had Sullivan flanking Sid, who was still recovering from a concussion and wasn't playing at the level he is now. Despite that, their production in the series was solid. I can't stress enough how bad Guerin was in that Montreal series. He was a complete anchor in every aspect of the game. Dupuis may not have great offensive talent, but he won't be behind the play the way Guerin constantly was, and he'll be providing so much more to that line in other areas.

Dupes' problem has never been getting around, and it's hardly what I'm worried about. I love the guy, but he's not exactly known for being a reliable finisher or a guy who can make plays on his own.

The other part to that is that Dupuis and Kunitz are playing at the highest level of their careers, and have been successful on other lines recently as well - Kunitz with Malkin and Dupuis with Staal.

They are. But I don't want to have to rely on that continuing when it matters and we have both the cap space and assets to acquire a player who can be a difference-maker (not a strictly complementary guy), like when we acquired Hossa.

If Kunitz isn't a self starter, Neal certainly isn't. With Geno having none of these proclaimed 'self starters' to flank him, does that mean he is doomed to fail? I mean, one could even say we saw it already in the Philly series.

Not that I believe it, just going along with some of the logic I'm seeing thrown around.

Neal doesn't need to be a self-starter when his offensive trump card is an automatic finish.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I know there's a site to see how many goals different players play a part in. I would love to see how many of Kunitz and Dupuis goals come without a point from Sid. I'd expect it to be a very low number. I'd wager most that Sid wasn't in on involve Letang instead. I bet there is a very low percentage of Kunitz and Dupuis getting primary assists with one another.

 

[Waffle Fries]

I know there's a site to see how many goals different players play a part in. I would love to see how many of Kunitz and Dupuis goals come without a point from Sid. I'd expect it to be a very low number. I'd wager most that Sid wasn't in on involve Letang instead. I bet there is a very low percentage of Kunitz and Dupuis getting primary assists with one another.

I don't know about goals exactly, but of Kunitz's 39 points, Crosby has points on 27. Of Dupuis's 19 points, Sid has points on 14.

So combined, they only have 17 out of 58 points on their own without Sid.

 

[shizno*]

I don't know about goals exactly, but of Kunitz's 39 points, Crosby has points on 27. Of Dupuis's 19 points, Sid has points on 14.

So combined, they only have 17 out of 58 points on their own without Sid.

Ofcourse Sid is going to be involved with most of their goals, they're his wingers! How many of Sids points don't involve them? That would be more interesting

 

[Waffle Fries]

Ofcourse Sid is going to be involved with most of their goals, they're his wingers! How many of Sids points don't involve them? That would be more interesting

I was just answering the question. But of Sid's 47 points:

Both Kunitz and Dupuis: 10/47
Just Dupuis: 4/47
Just Kunitz 17/47
Neither: 16/47

Sid has points on about 71% of the combined points of Kunitz and Dupuis
Kunitz and/or Dupuis have points on about 66% of Sid's

But to answer your question 34% of Sid's points involve neither