LORDE
I am Lorde, YA YA YA
I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say that Kakko would count if he busts.
It would count as MORE AWFUL NYR luck but I doubt anyone would say it was Gordies fault
OT: Should We Fire Gordie Clark
- Thread starter BBKers
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It would count as MORE AWFUL NYR luck but I doubt anyone would say it was Gordies fault
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I was surprised to see nobody had actually pulled data on this, to see how NYR has fared against other teams in the draft. Instead we get these completely subjective arguments where people go through the drafts and say “well the only players that are better than the NYR draft pick are X, Y and Z”.
I pulled all of the data from hockeydb (let me know if there’s an easier way of doing this) and ran the numbers since 2007, when Clark was promoted to run our team’s scouting. I wanted to see how reasonable it is to say Clark has done a garbage job:
Games played by NHL drafted players since 2007:
25. Toronto
26. NY Rangers
27. NJ Devils
28. Pittsburgh
Points by NHL drafted players since 2007:
21. Arizona
22. NY Rangers
23. Detroit
23. Toronto
“But wait, CH10, the Rangers traded away all of their draft picks during their cup run years”
Games played per pick by NHL drafted players since 2007:
20. Chicago
21. NY Rangers
22. Pittsburgh
23. Philadelphia
Points per pick by NHL drafted players since 2007:
21. Montreal
22. NY Rangers
23. Arizona
24. Philadelphia
The Rangers are one of 5 teams that finishes in the bottom third for each of these categories, along with Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, New Jersey and Toronto.
“But wait, CH10, the Rangers traded away all of their high draft picks during the cup runs”.
Ranking of cumulative draft position since 2007:
21. Edmonton
22. NY Rangers
23. NY Islanders
24. Columbus
There are other factors at play here, of course. The Rangers were without a first round pick a few years. There have also been situations like the Cherepanov incident that have hurt them in these rankings. Additionally, we have a strong prospect pool, which could change things in the long run.
Ultimately though, it looks like Clark has done an objectively bad job since he was promoted to run our scouting department. He has failed, time and time again, to draft a star caliber player - a drought no other team surpasses the Rangers on. Coupled with some of the more high profile failures recently, like McIlrath and Andersson, his resume looks like trash. Some of you may disagree with that (and many posters here operate under the assumption that because these people are paid they always know what they’re doing - which is hilariously false), but it’s completely reasonable to argue that Gordie Clark deserves to be fired.
I pulled all of the data from hockeydb (let me know if there’s an easier way of doing this) and ran the numbers since 2007, when Clark was promoted to run our team’s scouting. I wanted to see how reasonable it is to say Clark has done a garbage job:
Games played by NHL drafted players since 2007:
25. Toronto
26. NY Rangers
27. NJ Devils
28. Pittsburgh
Points by NHL drafted players since 2007:
21. Arizona
22. NY Rangers
23. Detroit
23. Toronto
“But wait, CH10, the Rangers traded away all of their draft picks during their cup run years”
Games played per pick by NHL drafted players since 2007:
20. Chicago
21. NY Rangers
22. Pittsburgh
23. Philadelphia
Points per pick by NHL drafted players since 2007:
21. Montreal
22. NY Rangers
23. Arizona
24. Philadelphia
The Rangers are one of 5 teams that finishes in the bottom third for each of these categories, along with Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, New Jersey and Toronto.
“But wait, CH10, the Rangers traded away all of their high draft picks during the cup runs”.
Ranking of cumulative draft position since 2007:
21. Edmonton
22. NY Rangers
23. NY Islanders
24. Columbus
There are other factors at play here, of course. The Rangers were without a first round pick a few years. There have also been situations like the Cherepanov incident that have hurt them in these rankings. Additionally, we have a strong prospect pool, which could change things in the long run.
Ultimately though, it looks like Clark has done an objectively bad job since he was promoted to run our scouting department. He has failed, time and time again, to draft a star caliber player - a drought no other team surpasses the Rangers on. Coupled with some of the more high profile failures recently, like McIlrath and Andersson, his resume looks like trash. Some of you may disagree with that (and many posters here operate under the assumption that because these people are paid they always know what they’re doing - which is hilariously false), but it’s completely reasonable to argue that Gordie Clark deserves to be fired.
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offdacrossbar
misfit fanboy
this is such delicious topic.
short answer. yes.
not sure this guy has done enough to warrant continued employment. in fact, he should be shown the door.
his hits have been middling.
his misses have been legend.
we continue to be a team driven by our successful trades and FA signings more than via the draft.
short answer. yes.
not sure this guy has done enough to warrant continued employment. in fact, he should be shown the door.
his hits have been middling.
his misses have been legend.
we continue to be a team driven by our successful trades and FA signings more than via the draft.
Rangers management really needs to fire him or demote him. he has been hurting this team more than not. he is horrible at noticing skill and talent regardless of the draft or UDFA. he is also horrible at evaluating talent
Not here to defend Gordie necessarily, but doesn't he rely largely on the reports he receives from the scouting staff? I mean obviously he gets out there himself to see the bigger targets, and he ultimately makes the decisions/final recommendations, but there have got to be other people deserving of blame when it comes to our drafting failures. If you're going to get rid of Gordie, feels like there are probably several other guys who need to go, as well.
I would say we've done pretty well in the UDFA/college grads market. Hayes, Pionk, Vesey, Georgiev, Talbot, etc.
Players like Hayes, Vesey and Fox come here because it’s the New York Rangers. Same goes for Zucc. Has very little to do with savvy scouting - the Rangers make the best offers.
Pionk, Talbot and Geo are nice scouting jobs, but that’s hardly a portfolio to write home about.
it would be a rookie max contract, most of those contracts as far as ELC are all similar.
Not the best offer in terms of salary.
The best in terms of being treated like royalty, living in NYC, storied Original 6 franchise, etc.
Very few teams can compete with that. Maybe Chicago?
Good Intentions
Registered User
- Mar 30, 2018
- 2,155
- 1,936
That is exactly right, and not rocket science.
I acknowledge I'm in my 30s now and I'm becoming (increasingly) condescending - but some of the younger folks here just need to learn more...
I don't know that this is actually true. I mean, we can only offer them the same ELC that everyone else can. Of course there's the allure of playing in The Big Apple, but that doesn't apply to every player. Hayes and Vesey (Fox is totally different and I intentionally didn't mention him) are only a small fraction of the high-profile UDFA/college grads that have come out in the last decade, and most of them don't sign here. So it can't just be about NY and the best offer, right? Hayes was a lock to sign in Boston or Colorado, IIRC. Everyone had a Blackhawks sweater on Vesey.
Clark was elevated to Director of Player Personnel in 2008. So he was around for Gilroy, Zuccarello, Talbot, Hayes, Vesey, Pionk, and Georgiev. That doesn't include guys that were very good organizational depth players like Gilmour, Allen, Bodie, Hrivik, Lettieri, etc. Then of course you have someone like Marchessault, who the organization wanted to sign, but couldn't (despite the fact that we "make the best offers" and apparently that's all it takes), and guys they also had a lot of interest in and had in camp repeatedly like Zaitsev, Sustr, Goodrow, Kinkaid, and so forth, who also chose to sign elsewhere.
Is that better than everyone else? Probably not? Is it average? Above average? I don't know, I'm not that familiar with the UDFA/grad signings of every other team. I do know that this particular area is not one that I ever thought we struggled with, and I don't think it's fair to chalk it up to us being the Rangers, either.
Chicago? Boston? Toronto and Montreal? Every Canadian kid wants to sign in Toronto and Montreal, right? And IDK about being treated like royalty, the kids are taken care of and all, but royalty seems excessive. This isn't the NBA or NFL. An extreme few Rangers have ever been treated like royalty in NYC. And again, with the playing in NY thing--for a lot of guys, that's not necessarily appealing. We've also seen guys sign in unexpected places like Columbus or Vegas in recent years.
Yeah, you're right, that is really condescending. Particularly given that you evidently don't know the age of those you're condescending to or the knowledge they possess. But yeah, keep doing that.
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Yup.
He’s also not the person making the final decision with whom the club decides to pick.
If you want to get rid of Gordie, then you need to make a bigger commitment and make a drastic overhaul with almost the entire scouting department.
Not sure I’m ready to see that change.
Regardless of whether or not it is the allure of coming to NYC, Vesey was a Hobey Baker winner and Hayes was a first round pick. There was a sweepstakes for Zuccarello, as there was for Tim Erixon. Everyone, literally everyone, was after them - there’s no special scouting there. And if we’re going to credit someone for those signings, it sure as hell isn’t Gordie Clark, it’s our GM.
I posted the numbers above - the Rangers scouting department is very below average. I’ll gladly give them credit where it’s due. Players like Chytil were awesome picks. But we’re really grasping for straws when we’re praising our scouting department for organizational depth like Mat Bodie, don’t you think?
ReggieDunlop68
hey hanrahan!
That’s on Sather. Moving pick after pick for rentals that didn’t push us over the top.
ReggieDunlop68
hey hanrahan!
Yeah I mean, we're skinning the guy alive, in large part because of Andersson and Kravtsov, and yet we have a huge contingent of people ready to anoint Bobrov as the savior. He's the Director of European Scouting--he would have extensive knowledge and input on both those selections. How do we know Clark didn't want Farabee and Necas, and that Bobrov was pounding on the table demanding Kravtsov and Andersson? Of course if that were the case, Clark would still have significant responsibility, but without knowing exactly what goes on (the real version--not what you hear in the spin from Clark et al afterwards) it's really hard to know where the primary problems lay.
ReggieDunlop68
hey hanrahan!
We can go back on forth on this, but the fact of the matter, is that none of those cities offer the lifestyle of playing pro hockey in New York. Boston is like 1/20th the size of NYC.
Sure, not every players wants that. The overwhelming majority do though.
It’s moments like these where I wish I was a fly on the wall in those war rooms..
ReggieDunlop68
hey hanrahan!
?
If this were true, we would be able to sign an overwhelming majority of UDFA/grads. Which we do not. We lose out all the time. And how do you know this to be true? Did you poll a bunch of guys about to hit free agency after graduating? Or did someone appoint you the spokesperson for this class of players?
MAJOR, sweepstakes guys we've landed in the past fifteen years? Who--Gilroy, Hayes? How many have signed elsewhere? Do I need to prepare a list of guys we were linked to that didn't sign here?
You're presenting an opinion without any facts to support it. Which is fine. But let's acknowledge that it is an opinion.
Why are you mentioning guys like Erixon and Fox? We're not talking about trade acquisitions. At least, I wasn't and I'm not.
You talk about Zuccarello and Vesey, and the fact that there were many teams after them, as if there's somehow no scouting involved. Really? Just like first round draft picks, these guys can fail. You still have to do your due diligence and scout them. We're not in on every player that is coveted by a lot of other teams, and it's for a reason. Just because a guy is a big name, doesn't mean he'll be good, and your amateur scouts have to make that determination. I mean I'm using Vesey as a success story, whereas a lot of people here think he's a huge failure and the worst guy they ever seen. What does that tell you? Everything is relative and you still have to scout these guys. Being a Hobey Baker finalist means nothing. Having ten other teams in on a guy means nothing.
And why credit our GM, then? Because it's all about NYC and the Original Six, right? And our offers that are better than the rest. So no one deserves the credit.
Yes, you did post a bunch of numbers earlier. I have my own issues with those numbers, but I literally said nothing about our drafting. I did not come in here to defend our draft record. I literally quoted ONE thing in ONE post which was that we generally do a good job with UDFA signings. And--hilariously!--I didn't even say it in defense of Gordie Clark. I merely pointed out that it's not an area where we struggle, for whatever reason, to whoever's credit.
Finally, no--it is absolutely not a stretch to mention the solid organizational pieces the team has added over the years. Those guys are instrumental in building a winning AHL team. Look no further than Vinni Lettieri, one of the few guys on our first good Hartford team in years who can actually put the puck in the net. Those guys are very important, and if you want to gloss over them, you're ignoring a big part of player development.
Anyway. I was here to talk about how we were not struggling to sign undrafted free agents or guys who graduated college and became free agents. I don't know why you're talking about all this other stuff like trading for Fox and Erixon and who deserves credit for making heroes of guys signing in New York or whatever, but I think I've made my points and am done.
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