OT: Should We Fire Gordie Clark

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I have to question the due diligence being performed by Clark and his staff. I think it's very concerning that 2 top 10 picks have now essentially packed their bags and left when the going got tough. For a rebuilding team, we've been awfully lucky we dont have to pin it's success on Gordie's picks

 

[ZiGOODejad]

Where’s the poll? Let’s do this shit for real.

 

[LORDE]

Actually short term memory is not remembering that Clark didn’t have 1st round picks in 4 years and often not even a 2nd rounder during this time right before the letter.

Ok... and when he did? Bust #1 and Bust #2 and TBD and a #2 overall that was a no brainer.

it is what it is at this point. He won’t be fired but he’s not GREAT

 

[LORDE]

It's drafting. There are going to be major misses. Though I can only think of one major miss in his tenure here and that's McIlrath.

It's not as if there was some clear pick taken right after Andersson who the Rangers whiffed on. In fact they drafted one of the best players taken in the first round after Andersson in Chytil. We also know they were targeting Glass or Petersson at 7 and neither guy ended up being there. So a little bit of cosmic luck and suddenly we're singing the praises of Gordie Clark's genius instead of talking about this situation.

So where are these huge misses outside of McIlrath?

Andersson is. When u trade ur 1C for a #7 and blow it. That’s a huge miss.

Don’t @ me with ADA who everyone knew was a project and is now only putting it together.

Of course we have Chytil and Kravtsov to hope for, and if they both work out it won’t matter as much but what if they don’t? Or what if we don’t get the #2 this past draft?

Again I’m on the fence here w him because I’m still pissed at 2010. I can be honest about that fact.

I just don’t see a stellar resume either and we won’t even bring up taking a goalie early in Rd. 2

 

[Whoot Whoot]

It’s NY we have higher standards because of our advantages we can usually get the very best. He is not the very best and needs to go. In fact he seems average to below average with his track record. Lias is his crowing miss.

 

[Trxjw]

Andersson is. When u trade ur 1C for a #7 and blow it. That’s a huge miss.

Don’t @ me with ADA who everyone knew was a project and is now only putting it together.

Of course we have Chytil and Kravtsov to hope for, and if they both work out it won’t matter as much but what if they don’t? Or what if we don’t get the #2 this past draft?

Again I’m on the fence here w him because I’m still pissed at 2010. I can be honest about that fact.

I just don’t see a stellar resume either and we won’t even bring up taking a goalie early in Rd. 2

Being pissed about 2010 is fine. I have plenty of gripes with certain selections since Gordie took over as well. However you simply cannot deny the fact that this organization has been one of the better drafting teams in the NHL over his tenure and that's without 4 years of 1st round picks and several 2nd's as well.

Part of the job for Clark and his team is keeping up on prospects so Gorton knows who to target in trades just like the Stepan deal. So just completely excluding that on bias seems disingenuous at best.

We have one of the best defensive prospect pools in the league. Great depth in goal. One of the best players from 2017 centering our second line. Sure, Andersson looks like a flop but nobody is going to hit on every pick. Having gripes with certain picks is one thing, but you can't argue the success he's had with what he's been given.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Ok... and when he did? Bust #1 and Bust #2 and TBD and a #2 overall that was a no brainer.

it is what it is at this point. He won’t be fired but he’s not GREAT

Clark has been a director of scouting/player personnel since 2005. In that time we drafted the following players in the 1st round:

Bad:
Sanguinetti
McIlrath

Good:
Staal
Cherepanov*
Del Zotto
Kreider
Miller
Skjei
Chytil

TBD:
Andersson
Kravtsov
Miller
Lundkvist
Kakko

Andersson could still turn into a valuable player, either here or elsewhere.

Add to that the players we drafted outside the 1st round who made an impact at the NHL level (Stepan, Hagelin, Fast, Duclair, Buchnevich, Anisimov, Weise) and it's clear to me that Gordie Clark isn't as bad as some fans make him out to be

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Clark has been a director of scouting/player personnel since 2005. In that time we drafted the following players in the 1st round:

Bad:
Sanguinetti
McIlrath

Good:
Staal
Cherepanov*
Del Zotto
Kreider
Miller
Skjei
Chytil

TBD:
Andersson
Kravtsov
Kakko

Andersson could still turn into a valuable player, either here or elsewhere.

Add to that the players we drafted outside the 1st round who made an impact at the NHL level (Stepan, Hagelin, Fast, Duclair, Buchnevich, Anisimov, Weise) and it's clear to me that Gordie Clark isn't as bad as some fans make him out to be

Fair take.

 

[JimmyG89]

No reason to fire Clark at this point. Look at what we've done with our picks once we actually have had some. The 2018 draft is still very strong, in spite of Kravtsov having issues this year. Miller and Lundkvist are having strong 2nd seasons. Keane is in the AHL and performing well and Pajuniemi is having a breakout season in LIIGA.

The 16 draft might be a good draft based on the selections available. No 1st or 2nd and you have Reunanen, Gettinger, and Wall from that group. A possible top 4 D, a bottom 6 winger, and a goalie with starter potential, more likely to be a backup. There is value there.

Andersson might be a miss in 17, but Chytil and potentially Morgan Barron help ease some of that pain.

Most have went through who they've drafted and have gone on to be successful NHLers. This draft might be one of the better drafts they've had. Obviously, just about anyone could have picked Kakko, but you add in Robertson who slipped to R2, but easily was ranked in the 1st round on some boards, Henriksson made Sweden's WJC team, Zac Jones has been phenomenal as a rookie in the NCAA, and even Skinner is having a nice season in London. Edstrom is a SHL staple on his team, as an 18 year old. The Aaltonen pick was praised, and he is playing full time in LIIGA.

One of the more underrated aspect of our amateur scouting group is that those reports do get used for trades as well. Our targets in deals the last two years comes with input from them as well. They identify players and make recommendations on who we should target. It's not Gorton knowing who to go after, the scouting reports are the biggest piece to it.

Every team has their head-scratchers when it comes to picks. No team goes out there and makes a great pick with every one of their selections. I think our track record is pretty strong considering the lack of high picks since the 05-06 lockout.

 

[LORDE]

Being pissed about 2010 is fine. I have plenty of gripes with certain selections since Gordie took over as well. However you simply cannot deny the fact that this organization has been one of the better drafting teams in the NHL over his tenure and that's without 4 years of 1st round picks and several 2nd's as well.

Part of the job for Clark and his team is keeping up on prospects so Gorton knows who to target in trades just like the Stepan deal. So just completely excluding that on bias seems disingenuous at best.

We have one of the best defensive prospect pools in the league. Great depth in goal. One of the best players from 2017 centering our second line. Sure, Andersson looks like a flop but nobody is going to hit on every pick. Having gripes with certain picks is one thing, but you can't argue the success he's had with what he's been given.

I never said that in eliminating their scouting in-league pro wise... more so I was referring to ADA as a project. One that has so far worked out. But the #7 was the main piece. The pro scouting hasn’t been great either... yeah Panarin and Trouba have worked, Strome as well. But there’s also the other Staal, Nash, Richards, MSL, Yandle, Shattenkirk...

All had bright spots at times... none ever did exactly what we needed them to do when we needed it.

I said I was on fence w Gordy. I still am. U certainly have a valid point about finding players later. But the BIG misses really hurt when viewed through the optics of ‘what if’ while still finding those late gems.

And I’ll be honest... in the best league in the world... if u wanna win, you better be able to do both.

 

[LORDE]

Clark has been a director of scouting/player personnel since 2005. In that time we drafted the following players in the 1st round:

Bad:
Sanguinetti
McIlrath

Good:
Staal
Cherepanov*
Del Zotto
Kreider
Miller
Skjei
Chytil

TBD:
Andersson
Kravtsov
Miller
Lundkvist
Kakko

Andersson could still turn into a valuable player, either here or elsewhere.

Add to that the players we drafted outside the 1st round who made an impact at the NHL level (Stepan, Hagelin, Fast, Duclair, Buchnevich, Anisimov, Weise) and it's clear to me that Gordie Clark isn't as bad as some fans make him out to be

Andersson falls in the BAD because no matter where his career goes it won’t be here.

As far as the rest, there are a lot of useful players there but not one who’s elite (yet). THAT is the issue with completely blowing you early firsts... strong draft or not.

I said I’m on the fence and the reason I am is the names you mentioned and where they were taken.

 

[Doctyl]

Andersson falls in the BAD because no matter where his career goes it won’t be here.

As far as the rest, there are a lot of useful players there but not one who’s elite (yet). THAT is the issue with completely blowing you early firsts... strong draft or not.

I said I’m on the fence and the reason I am is the names you mentioned and where they were taken.

While I do think Andersson should go under bad, this doesn’t make sense. If the guy turns it around and has a good career, then Clark was right. It becomes Quinn’s fault

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Andersson falls in the BAD because no matter where his career goes it won’t be here.

If Andersson turns into a top-6 player elsewhere, it's still a good pick. It means they identified the career he would have. The fact that it's not with us, doesn't matter. Marek Zidlicky and Anthony Duclair were still good picks.

As far as the rest, there are a lot of useful players there but not one who’s elite (yet). THAT is the issue with completely blowing you early firsts... strong draft or not.

You can't expect elite players outside the top-5 or sometimes even the top-3. This is the problem with most fans. They cherry pick the stars from previous drafts and use that as the norm of what you should expect in the 15-30 range.

I said I’m on the fence and the reason I am is the names you mentioned and where they were taken.

Rangers picked Kreider over Josefson and Schroeder. They picked Miller over some duds, same goes for Skjei. I can make the same case for Del Zotto and Staal. Again, expecting stars out of the first round is just not realistic

 

[Off Sides]

I guess my issue with their drafting overall, there seems to be much weight put on character, and while of course that is a good trait, these are 17-18 year old kids.

My other concern is more about development, again 18-19 year olds, maybe some of them need to stay where they were drafted out of a little longer, or need to be told the AHL is the path to the NHL and most prospects do not get to skip it. (I don't know, maybe the Rangers have told them as much)

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

It’s easy to fall into the trap of wanting accountability and a scalp, neglecting how important it is to also identify a replacement who is better.

I also think Clark and his team have been better than most.

But at the end of the day they have had 4 top ten picks and 3 had a lot of observers wondering what the NYR knew that they did not.

McIlrath - Strike 1
Lias - looking like Strike 2
Kravtsov - TBD
Kakko - TBD but would never fault the scouts if it didn’t work...10/10 consensus pick.

The poor drafting so far with top picks has to be scrutinized internally and intensely. They need to consider at minimum throwing out their entire current process.

 

[LORDE]

If Andersson turns into a top-6 player elsewhere, it's still a good pick. It means they identified the career he would have. The fact that it's not with us, doesn't matter. Marek Zidlicky and Anthony Duclair were still good picks.



You can't expect elite players outside the top-5 or sometimes even the top-3. This is the problem with most fans. They cherry pick the stars from previous drafts and use that as the norm of what you should expect in the 15-30 range.



Rangers picked Kreider over Josefson and Schroeder. They picked Miller over some duds, same goes for Skjei. I can make the same case for Del Zotto and Staal. Again, expecting stars out of the first round is just not realistic

Except that no stars is exactly why we didn’t win a cup since 1994. We had Hank and that’s it.

I agree with tour points and that’s why I’m on the fence w Him.
We needed one of those misses to be an elite... and that’s the bottom line.

Best league in the world, if u can’t find a star in those important moments early in the draft you won’t win and we haven’t.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Except that no stars is exactly why we didn’t win a cup since 1994. We had Hank and that’s it.

I agree with tour points and that’s why I’m on the fence w Him.
We needed one of those misses to be an elite... and that’s the bottom line.

Best league in the world, if u can’t find a star in those important moments early in the draft you won’t win and we haven’t.

Colorado hasn't found contributor outside the top 10 since Tyson Barrie.
Tampa Bay has not found any stars in the first round outside Stamkos and Hedman. Helenius, Ashton, Connolly, Namestnikov, Koekkoek, Drouin, DeAngelo, Howden. Is Vasilevsky a star? Or a product of their defense?

I can take a look at a few other teams as well. It's not as easy as fans may think to find that Pastrnak/Bergeron/Kucherov/Kuznetsov type star without a top pick

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Colorado hasn't found contributor outside the top 10 since Tyson Barrie.
Tampa Bay has not found any stars in the first round outside Stamkos and Hedman. Helenius, Ashton, Connolly, Namestnikov, Koekkoek, Drouin, DeAngelo, Howden. Is Vasilevsky a star? Or a product of their defense?

I can take a look at a few other teams as well. It's not as easy as fans may think to find that Pastrnak/Bergeron/Kucherov/Kuznetsov type star without a top pick

I hear you and do agree. I think overall Clark’s tenure here has still been much more good than bad.

It is hard to swallow getting absolutely 0 out of what is now looking like two top-10 picks. Add in the fact that both were drafted decently in the high end of a distribution across rankings and it’s not a great look.

 

[LORDE]

Colorado hasn't found contributor outside the top 10 since Tyson Barrie.
Tampa Bay has not found any stars in the first round outside Stamkos and Hedman. Helenius, Ashton, Connolly, Namestnikov, Koekkoek, Drouin, DeAngelo, Howden. Is Vasilevsky a star? Or a product of their defense?

I can take a look at a few other teams as well. It's not as easy as fans may think to find that Pastrnak/Bergeron/Kucherov/Kuznetsov type star without a top pick

Both are closer to a cup than we are and I specifically said you need to both draft well outside the top but u can’t blow ur big opportunities either.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Both are closer to a cup than we are and I specifically said you need to both draft well outside the top but u can’t blow ur big opportunities either.

Outside the 1st round it's a crap shoot. If Tampa Bay scouts really knew how good Kucherov would be, they're idiots for passing on him in favor of Namestnikov

 

[hi]

12 years?

NHL forwards:

Carl Hagelin
Derek Stepan
Dale Weise
Chris Kreider
Jesper Fast
JT Miller
Pavel Buchnevich
Anthony Duclair
Filip Chytil

NHL defensemen:

Michael Del Zotto
Brady Skjei

NHL goaltenders:

?

The Rangers have had 3 top 10 picks in the past 3 drafts. 2 of them have literally left the Rangers organization after playing in Hartford this season. He's had 4 top 10 picks during his tenure here. 2 of them can now be considered outright busts for this organization. The jury is still out on Kravtsov.

If you don't think he should be fired then you should probably count against the Rangers cap-hit.

 

[Mac n Gs]

There's also literally no point to firing him when he's close to retirement and Bobrov is already his heir apparent. They've had a massive shift in their approach to drafting players over the last few years, and I've been more than content with the job they're doing.

Let's just look at the last drafts:

2015- objectively a bad draft, but I'd argue that they made a really solid selection with Saarela in the 3rd round. Kovacs was a good pick too, but the kid's personal life just went off the rails. The only player they're getting from this draft is Huska

2016- again, no picks as a by-product of making moves to compete, but they're looking like they're pulling Gettinger, Reunanen, and Tyler Wall out of this draft all from the 4th, 5th, and 7th rounds. That's a fantastic job backfilling organizational depth.

2017- Lias and Chytil are the obvious ones. I liked the Sjallin pick a lot, but the kid's been derailed by injuries. Barron is also looking like a steal as a 6th rounder.

2018- that first round is an absolute grand slam, I've been very vocal about disliking the Lindblom pick, and Keane/Pajuniemi are also looking like fantastic picks. Again, this is a great draft during a rebuild.

2019- too early to tell, but so far the Robertson and Jones picks look incredible. I like Henriksson a lot, but he needs some time in a better environment to get his scoring going, and I think the WJC will do wonders for him. Skinner and Edstrom are also having some solid D+1 years given their roles. Overall, this is looking like another very good draft in the D+1 year. Oh yeah, there's that Kaapo Kakko guy too.

The last three years look like we should be getting multiple players out of our later-round picks. If we want this to be a successful rebuild, it's absolutely essential to get players from those spots to backfill the organizational depth. Clark will be gone when the effects of these last 4 classes really take hold, but it definitely looks like he'll be retiring on a good note.

 

[Edge]

You’d never guess this was widely hailed as the top farm system in the NHL about 10 weeks ago.

Personally, I love how Kakko apparently doesn’t count because he was gimme. Never mind that he’ll count if he busts, but that’s another story.

 

[free0717]

I personally believe skating, stickhandling and shooting, Hockey IS should be the first skills looked at before character and leadership. 18 years old is very.young to judge.the.last.two.qualities. . Although Mittlestadt is in the.minora, he.should have been the pick

 

[Hunter Gathers]

In Gordie I no longer trust.

Time for him to go.