Should the Leafs make front office changes?

[Daisy Jane]

This isn't Basketball, for a start that sport is more inclined to trade it's top end players and one guy isn't playing 48 minutes a night either

Now Daisy I'd like you to tell me who Kawai Leonard is in this situation because I'm pretty sure Edmonton isn't going to trade us Drai for Nylander

Yeah, we need every point we can get not less for other "stuff"

again, i don't know. that's not my job. [and like i've said i've missed legit a year+ of hockey, because apparently Quennville was in a sex scandal and I was like, oh, okay. mindblown. there are people screaming that Dubas screwed up because he didn't get better goaltending, was there goaltending available, i dunno no one is saying anything.]

I don't think that it matters that it's basketball vs. hockey. the sentiment is the same. you've changed goaltending. you've touched the depth guys. you've changed defense.


you say "stuff" like it doesn't matter. again. if you can get it via committee - then you can get away with not having several PPG players. I personally would take the hit in points and be like 5-6, or even the wild card, and win a cup then have all of this scoring , setting team records yada yada yada and go no where with it.

Our furthest cup run that I can remember was run off the backs of Alyn McCauley and Gary Roberts. the stars went down and they took the leafs on their back, along with solid goaltending and a in it to win it attitude. Stellick said it today on the radio. when the stars go down, where is the second (or even third wave) people to step it up. who beat us in game seven- Nick Paul who is that? I dunno (i mean again this isn't fair i barely know 1/2 the leafs now LOL) but you get my point.

in my humble opinion there are 3 pieces who you don't move.

Matthews - because he's a #1 centre defenseman
Rielly - because you signed him to a 8 year deal so he's clearly your #1 defenseman
Tavares because you can't. [unless he wants to go]

we haven't done anything else to warrant "oh no, don't touch anything else because they score oodles." we need other variables on the team - variables that can provide consistently in ways that we are lacking - as well as provide offense. and we need to send a message to the room which isn't. "oh, okay we've changed the coach again. maybe this will work now."

 

[deprw]

New President, New GM and then let the new GM pick the coach and decide the new vision for the future.

Clean front office. Their philosophy and mindset is of: 1) loser attitude, 2) easily satisfied, 3) self-congratulatory 4) incompetent, 5) victim personality 6) absolutely ZERO foresight

Need new vision and new voice that is competent and has foresight.

Basicly you mean all-out reset and 2-5 year cycle trough organizational transformation? That means new leader has to evaluate every level of personnel from scouting, development, players, couching, nutrition, medicine etc.

Wise leader doesn't make any scorched earth approach with 115p team, so next year we mostly stand still and assess. Shanahan did that and we were in different phase. You don't want to can good people who know your operations ins and outs.

Then we change personnel and start changing philosophy and values, which will take time. In state of having two best invidual players this organizations has had in last 50 years.

 

[MikonD600]

I understand calling for changes to the GM and coach but I really want to give them one more year to try to figure it out. The team finished with 115 points and had the top PP and one of the top PK units. They are doing some things right.

Let's face it, this team had won the series if Kerfoot doesn't double down on stupidity. If they had won the series I honestly believe we would have gone to the Finals. There would have been no other Vasi out there to steal a game 7 from us.

They do have to make tweaks to the lineup. Bring in players who know what playing in the playoffs requires. Miky and Engvall don't know.

Leafs fans really are hilarious. You can't make this stuff up. Haven't won one playoff series in 18yrs but yes they were bound for the finals if only they got past the first round. smfh

 

[rumman]

Here is hoping MLSE losing money during the pandemic puts their foot down for more success and says this loser mentality is not acceptable anymore.

If anything.. money always talks!

I doubt it to be honest, I wonder if failure to make it out of the first round again next season would be enough to make a change? Eventually someone will have to admit that paying half your cap to 4 players doesn’t work, won’t work, never will work…….

 

[deprw]

Leafs fans really are hilarious. You can't make this stuff up. Haven't won one playoff series in 18yrs but yes they were bound for the finals if only they got past the first round. smfh

It isn't that far fetched. Tampa was the experienced grizzled veteran team and I'd say hardest opponent on first round for any team this year. If you look up all series. They were way better than in the regular season. Florida, Carolina, Rangers etc. aren't nothing that special than what Tampa was.

In reality you never know and I think that assumption is like you said "you can't make that stuff up", but if you evaluate the playoff picture, you could say Toronto was built to win the east once they got pass Tampa.

Last year you could say the same, but in reality we lost to Canadiens and it wasn't quality of our team that was different it was our play. This year our quality and play almost matched. Almost isn't enough though, and then you never know.

That stings. Sorry, that is all we can discuss about. Speculate. Like you said it have been 18 years. Speculating is all we have and all we had. This is beyond frustrating and you'll see that anywhere any Leafs fan is writing.

 

[rumman]

It isn't that far fetched. Tampa was the experienced grizzled veteran team and I'd say hardest opponent on first round for any team this year. If you look up all series. They were way better than in the regular season. Florida, Carolina, Rangers etc. aren't nothing that special than what Tampa was.

In reality you never know and I think that assumption is like you said "you can't make that stuff up", but if you evaluate the playoff picture, you could say Toronto was built to win the east once they got pass Tampa.

Last year you could say the same, but in reality we lost to Canadiens and it wasn't quality of our team that was different it was our play. This year our quality and play almost matched. Almost isn't enough though, and then you never know.

That stings. Sorry, that is all we can discuss about. Speculate. Like you said it have been 18 years. Speculating is all we have and all we had. This is beyond frustrating and you'll see that anywhere any Leafs fan is writing.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. To quote the late Al Davis “just win baby……..”

 

[forecheck]

Shanahan is a Politician - If he senses at all that the Board isn't happy - he will clean house before he is part of the culling ... otherwise the BS will fly and the team will be in the same boat next season - maybe worst ...

 

[deprw]

again, i don't know. that's not my job. [and like i've said i've missed legit a year+ of hockey, because apparently Quennville was in a sex scandal and I was like, oh, okay. mindblown. there are people screaming that Dubas screwed up because he didn't get better goaltending, was there goaltending available, i dunno no one is saying anything.]

Actually there wasn't. If you don't count gamling on Raanta. I don't think there was way better options than Mrazek that we got. If we'd signed in example Ullmark and he ended up being 4mil backup for Kallgren that would have been terribad.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. To quote the late Al Davis “just win baby……..”

And you're Elon Musk?

 

[rumman]

Actually there wasn't. If you don't count gamling on Raanta. I don't think there was way better options than Mrazek that we got. If we'd signed in example Ullmark and he ended up being 4mil backup for Kallgren that would have been terribad.


And you're Elon Musk?

I wish…..

 

[Nooodles]

Dubas did not draft Matthews, Marner or Nylander. He inherited them.

The new GM can also inherit them and then decide what do with them contract wise and set a vision for future that does not include continuous 1st round exits, losing to zamboni drivers and becoming a JOKE in the NHL where the fans of the team have to hide their faces

We were the joke of the NHL when we had Johnny Pohl, Simon Gamache and traded 2 1st round picks for Phil Kessel and had Bozak as our 1C for a f***ing decade. Thats when we hide our faces not when we almost beat a 2x Stanley Cup Champion losing by one freaking goal.

You have always been the biggest Dubas hater for basically no reason, mabye because hes young and has more success in life than you ever will, but please tell me:

What the f*** would you do? Explain me, tell me what would be your plan, how would you make this team better, who do you think should be our GM and coach and what would they need to do in order to make this team suitable for your heart?

Im serious, I expet a long, detailed post from you now here, because all you ever do is whine and shit on Dubas 24/7. Here is your chance, tell us what you want from your best GM whoever he is.

 

[Stinger8]

the time to fire was last year. not after a 115 point season.

What did 115 points get you in the playoffs? ITs ALL about the playoffs

 

[Morbo]

What did 115 points get you in the playoffs? ITs ALL about the playoffs

exactly, so why not fire them last year??

 

[hoglund]

What did 115 points get you in the playoffs? ITs ALL about the playoffs

You have to play well enough during the season in order to qualify for the playoffs.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

In fairness, if the Leafs had missed the playoffs like the Knights and the Isles, I don't think there's any doubt that the entire front office and coaching staff would have been let go as well.

The Leafs are the only team in the 3 major sports with multi-game playoff formats (NBA, MLB, NHL) to have lost in the first round 5 STRAIGHT YEARS. This is record breaking futility folks, all under Shanny's watch.

Still not embarrassed enough?

Fire them all.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Shanahan is a Politician - If he senses at all that the Board isn't happy - he will clean house before he is part of the culling ... otherwise the BS will fly and the team will be in the same boat next season - maybe worst ...

Hmmmmm...... Brendan Shanahan.

BS.

Coincidence?

 

[Funk21]

No GM is perfect and for the few mistakes he has made in terms of over paying for the stars he has managed to assemble one of the best D corps the leafs have seen in a long while. He has signed some great value contracts.

This year he got rid of the Ritchie and picked up Lyubushkin. He brought in Campbell, while not elite he is on par with Andersen IMO and not the reason we have lost series the past few year.

My biggest issue is with coaching. Keefe while a good coach is not good enough. He values vets too much and has been consistently out coached in each series. Mind you some of that is personnel but this year I think we matched up exceptionally well. His deployment of the D was terrible. Had they kept Liljegren in the lineup he would have had a great mix of stay at home size and physicality and PMD.

The D should have always been
Rielly Brodie
Muzzin Liljegren
Gio Lyubushkin
Holl

Or

Rielly Brodie
Gio Liljegren
Muzzin Lyubushkin
Holl

I’d like to see him be given one more year but he needs to get rid

Mrazek
Kerfoot
Holl
Nylander-Cap casualty
Muzzin-if we can get a good hockey trade


Resign Campbell 4x4. Nothing more.
Go After Nick Paul
Resign
Engvall
Liljegren
Sandin
Gio
Lyubushkin

See if can find some decent wingers in the aggregate can equal Nylander production.

 

[WickedPegJets]

A head coaching change.

The signing of Petr Mazrek was a fireable offense.

 

[PromisedLand]

We were the joke of the NHL when we had Johnny Pohl, Simon Gamache and traded 2 1st round picks for Phil Kessel and had Bozak as our 1C for a f***ing decade. Thats when we hide our faces not when we almost beat a 2x Stanley Cup Champion losing by one freaking goal.

You have always been the biggest Dubas hater for basically no reason, mabye because hes young and has more success in life than you ever will, but please tell me:

What the f*** would you do? Explain me, tell me what would be your plan, how would you make this team better, who do you think should be our GM and coach and what would they need to do in order to make this team suitable for your heart?

Im serious, I expet a long, detailed post from you now here, because all you ever do is whine and shit on Dubas 24/7. Here is your chance, tell us what you want from your best GM whoever he is.

First this is a hockey board. if dubas hadn't f***ed up so royally nobody would be talking about it. So stop attacking me and attack the process and approach led by your boy wonder that has led to nothing but failure. Show some RESPECT for the logo you claim to support.

This team needs a new vision and new voice. There are other teams in the league that make the 2nd round, go deep in the playoffs and and hell win cups who do not have "Dubas" as their GM.

There is absolutely nothing "special" about Dubas; on the contrary Leafs under Dubas have had laughable results.

Second,
He is the only GM in the entire league that tried to redefine hockey landscape and has failed spectacularly. Only GM in history to get rewarded a team on the rise, with plenty of cap space, assets/prospects and in two years he flushed everything down the toilet.

Only GM in the league that has the roster with three 11 AAV forwards on the team.

You can call it "good" or "great" but results under dubas' tenure speaks for themselves. There is no speculation, opinions or anything else. Just purely results based "facts"

Leafs have not won a round in 6 years, 4 years have been under dubas in those 4 years leafs have been up to the cap.


Dubas should have been fired yesterday. He is entering his last year of contract and there has been no news of renewal just goes on to show what MLSE thinks of boy wonder's experiment on MLSE dime too.

You claim to be a fan of maple leafs yet to accept such results? you go ga-ga over a GM that has done nothing but bring shame to the franchise: losing to AHL zamboni driver, blowing a 3-1 series lead to habs with habs' colors shining bring on one of Toronto's landmark (CN Tower), losing to freakin' CBJ with fully healthy roster, once again not able to close the series in Game 7 against tampa with 2 opportunities to do it. Only team this season to not close out a game 7 win at home.

This loser culture as far as I am concerned should not be tolerated or accepted. Period! The response to this loser culture starts by cleaning out the person that fostered this loser culture it starts with the GM.

 

[yubbers]

I'm not picking on you (for this comment), you're just the one i like and we have discourse.
but this is nonsense, yubbers, sorry.

I just feel people are romanticzing a lot here. Dubas has done the exact same thing as Lou has done when Lou was here. which is make moves to make the team stronger, and the team didn't get it done in the playoffs. I don't know what "learning" Dubas did - which cost this team. Do you?

If the argument is "signing Matthews to 5 years."- that's what Matthews wanted to do. Lou had 2+ years to sign Matthews to a better contract that would make people happy, he didn't. I don't think it's fair to be all "well Dubas was a rookie so bleh blegh got schooled" as if the guy never GM'ed ever in life before. Sometimes people here act like if it were X, Matthews woulda been "yeah oh okay, I'll sign 8," if it had been like. Yzerman at the wheel instead. (which i mean we'll never know, but considering how Matthews tends to do things, I think he would have balked). and then what? I mean I know what I do, and you know i dont cotton to babying players, but most of the NHL tends to do so esp to the super stars.

was it not getting a goalie? Okay. what goalie was available to get? I'm dead serious, I don't know [this year] because I didn't watch, and I can't remember when Freddy was here. What goalie could we have gotten that a None Rookie GM could have gotten? or someone better than Muzzin? (ii mean it's not Dubas's fault that Muzzin has Lupulitis and gets hurt every season). or finds creative ways to get people here within the cap like Gio etc.

Keefe did the exact same thing Babcock did. get this team to play really well in the regular season, and then not really make it far as expected. but that's also on the players. is it not? [except I'd argue this year and as I've said other places - people are lumping this loss - like the others - as if they are all equal, and to me they aren't. this series didn't look anything like the times where they got up and literally just melted as the series went on. They were good enough to win this series,, they just didn't. there are reasons for it, but you could easily apply that to Tampa too without mentioning refs or any of that).

and I'm not saying all of this because I want Dubas to stay or Keefe to stay i've been flat out dead honest that if it were up to me the moment he got fired, I would have been "Boudreau, come home." or same to Quennville - i think they would have been buneo good here. I made it more than clear that I didn't like how Shanahan gave Dubas the job - but pragmatically are we saying that Dubas didn't give this team the piece it needed to make deep playoff runs?

Like yeah ultimately we have to look at everyone - but what specifically has Dubas done [that someone else could have done better], that warrants Shanahan's head? if the answer is "overpaid the core." well i can name you umpteen organizations that did and does the same thing. again people are like. Dubas is okay with losing etc. but... he has made changes every year. so. clearly not. and if the argument is. "well he didn't trade the Big Boys." who do you want to be traded and for what? are they available?

the refrain for a while was the Leafs are just zoom zoom zom, no defense. (and I waved that flag)
to me - esp in this series (again seven game reference i'll own it) - this was the best series they played defensively. yeah thaey made mistakes, but no one is perfect. Tampa wasn't.

the refrain was they weren't physical enough - Dubas got tougher players (who can punch) as well as are good with the puck. this series (and against Montreal, and the last Boston series) the Leafs held their own. Matthews remembered he weighs 200++ lbs and was physical like Mallkin(which imo is great).

if it's about goaltending - who was out there that would have been great - that Dubas didn't get?

To me - the Leafs are like washington. Washington couldn't get out of the 2nd round, the Leafs can't get out of the first. the older/better the core is getting, the better their regular season progresses (not saying i expect them to win divisions/presidents trophies etc etc, for me its more like just get in and win). but they can't crack the code yet. so more changes have to be made. and as i've said else where i think the room needs to be made uncomfortable at all times.

but Saying that Shanahan needs to be accountable because Dubas didn't get it done for x years, or that Dubas and Shanahan are okay with losing, well - I'd like examples for the first - and they didn't look "okay with losing" Saturday night, to me.

We can't say what would have happened had they stuck with Lou for that extra year and Dubas walked. It's all speculation. Considering you had the franchises biggest couple signing coming up...I don't see why you wouldn't let the vet handle that.

I don't like the 5 year deal but that's the least of my concerns. This was always his team. Bringing in JT and handing him the C was the wrong decision. IMHO, it guaranteed he'll walk after his contract.

Keefe and Babcock did not do the same thing. The team literally complained that Babacock was mean ffs. LOL. Dubas is that stepdad that tries to buy your love and doesn't believe in discipline or something :p I'd love to see how this team handled Trotz.

100% he learned on the job. So many self-inflicted wounds. Waiving Big Mac to bring in Sparks.....has to kick the known hothead out of the locker room a week before playoffs. Didn't address the mistake, Leafs bleed points all season and missed the playoffs in the shortened year. He should have been fired there and then. And the ole Hainsey :p It was very clear early on he would lean towards youth over vets. Then he had to change course cause plan A didn't work. That's learning.

Would you not agree Shanny giving a rookie GM the reigns is a risky move? Who else is responsible for that mistake? Shanny hired him. You now my rants. And I've screamed we're wasting our AM years. Sadly that still remains true. Generational talent gonna walk and we likely won't get out of a 1st round for the entirety of his contract. That's depressing. And that's where this is going imo.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I don't like the 5 year deal but that's the least of my concerns. This was always his team. Bringing in JT and handing him the C was the wrong decision. IMHO, it guaranteed he'll walk after his contract.

if mattthews walks because he wasn't made captain then I think that speaks more about Matthews, than it does about anyone else. not to mention Matthews and Marner both were extremely active in trying to get Tavares here but they draw the line of him being captain? That doesn't make sense to me.

100% he learned on the job. So many self-inflicted wounds.

soo everything you listed is learning, but when seasoned vet GMs make the same dumbo mistakes... that would be what? [stares very hard at Burke and Nonis years]. . again. Lou had time to do the contracts. period. Lou decided not to do the contracts. Then Lou left. Someone else had to do it. that's on Lou that's not on anyone else.

imma going to be clear - I don't really care if Shanahan fires Dubas. at the end of the day I don't really care if they fire Shanahan. if they have better people ready in the wings[and who are they?}. but [and I have to state this again -outside of this year because I have no reference frame of mind.], I don't personally don't see them trying to "reinvent Hockey." I don't even know what that means when y'all say that. (unless you are all complaining that they focus on stats and stuff and everyone is is about muh guh grrrr smush hockey).

The leafs were lacking when Shanahan and Dubas came in in a lot of the things the league had embraced for years. they were just more vocal about it (and I would argue due to the market we are in). the leafs were being lambasted for not doing what the other teams are doing but now it seems we're lambasting them for employing practices other headoffices in the league are doing?

like if people want change - who out there is better right now? I dunno.
I remember when Dubas was hired I wanted several other people but I also know some of those people were ear marked for other jobs or wanted to stay where they were - my only argument at the time was that Shanahan didn't interview other people. I still think that was wrong And ultimately at the end of the day Shanahan has to be held accountable for everything in regards to the hockey side of things but specifically saying "because he Hired Dubas" and "dubas was learning. because he made moves he thought would work - then fixed them when it didn't isn't learning it's doing his job. just like how Lou was here and he made moves that he thought would work - and then fixed them when they didn't. (barely).

 

[PromisedLand]

Interesting seeing results in this poll. Last season after the montreal debacle poll was interesting as well

Based on this recent poll it seems like most of the posters seem to indicate that they want a change.

 

[bodechek]

The fact that they are going to stay with the status quo really pisses me off! This damn core group didn't get it done in the past four years, if you make it five, then this is really a cruel joke to us fans!

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

if mattthews walks because he wasn't made captain then I think that speaks more about Matthews, than it does about anyone else. not to mention Matthews and Marner both were extremely active in trying to get Tavares here but they draw the line of him being captain? That doesn't make sense to me.




I don't personally don't see them trying to "reinvent Hockey." I don't even know what that means when y'all say that. (unless you are all complaining that they focus on stats and stuff and everyone is is about muh guh grrrr smush hockey).

I think it might affect AM when it comes to re-signing...it should never have been JT's captaincy in the first place. He is not a leader...not on the ice..not off of it. At least AM is closest to a clutch player that we have (he really isn't...just closer than anyone else).

As for the reinventing hockey....Yes...I do think they thought they would reinvent hockey by doing a few things their way.

1. They tried to have 3 players making max money and fill around the edges. Until last years Finals...no player making more than $10M had ever been there since the barrier was broached in 2015. What does that say? 1 player had made the finals and we have 3 of them.

2. The whole we will draft skill and trade for toughness as we need it tripe. They have done no such thing. I don't consider the few 4th liners we sign to be the type of toughness we need. We need players that are good enough to play big minutes...not someone doing a twirl around for 7min a night.

3. The tiny puck moving D-man fad that had them getting Hollowel and Duszak type players that are useless...not to mention the Malgin and Petan experiments. We have too many of the same type of players. We are impressed when Engval actually uses his size to any degree. That shouldn't be on a wish list...it should be on a MUST list if your playing here.

They totally put zero credence on intangibles and other non measurables when grading players. They stepped out of the box with Knies last year...too bad they didn't earlier.

 

[Trapper]

Interesting seeing results in this poll. Last season after the montreal debacle poll was interesting as well

View attachment 548752

Based on this recent poll it seems like most of the posters seem to indicate that they want a change.

Shanahan and Dubas should stick to marketing and promoting the team and let someone else build a playoff contender.
They can organize soirées, design logos, have ceremonies, etc.

 

[Racer88]

Shanahan and Dubas should stick to marketing and promoting the team and let someone else build a playoff contender.
They can organize soirées, design logos, have ceremonies, etc.

I wouldn’t even let those 2 chose the popcorn supplier