Should John Moore be sent down?

[Trxjw]

The thread is about John Moore. If I see one more completely irrelevant post about McIlrath the whole thread will be closed.

 

[Puckface NYR*]

I guess no one read this.

Moore won't be sent down because he would require waivers, and he would absolutely be picked up by another team. He hasn't been great, but short of a trade, he will be on this team for the rest of the year.

I thought he was.....well that certainly ends that discussion.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

im a big fan but he has been pretty brutal lately. he makes some silly decisions and leaves his check alot to wander and scramble around. defensively hes got a ways to go.

i would keep him right there. let him learn.

his raw tools, skating and shot are worth it. long term, hes gonna be a very solid player.

This. He's going through a rough patch right now but is young enough and skilled enough to play out of it.

I will say that a good benching is in order. Look what it did for MZA.

 

[ColonialsHockey10]

Some things I think people really don't understand about this player:

Moore was a first round pick based on his size and skating ability. There was hope that he would eventually use those abilities to turn into a good two-way blue liner ala McDonagh, Skjei (who is a lot better then John Moore ever was as a prospect), ect.

What people don't realize is that neither of those things truly came to fruition during his development. He never even made the WJC team.

When we got him last season he was no longer in the realm of being a top prospect. He was a decent asset that looked like he would never reach his potential.

The optimism regarding John Moore comes out of his draft status and the belief that he will turn into something because he's a good prospect. Truth is he hasn't been a good prospect since 2010.

He was solid last season and looked explosive during the preseason. Otherwise he's following the standard trajectory he's been on since he was drafted; leveling out.

 

[Puckface NYR*]

This. He's going through a rough patch right now but is young enough and skilled enough to play out of it.

I will say that a good benching is in order. Look what it did for MZA.

He was benched 3 games ago and came back with arguably his worst two games of the season.

 

[Raspewtin]

He was benched 3 games ago and came back with arguably his worst two games of the season.

That's what worries me. I wanted to mention this.

 

[Flavius]

Maybe it's his number. That "17" is cursed. Dubi, Rupp, now Moore.

 

[Miller Time NYR]

can we send him down on a conditioning stint? He has looked horrendous in these last two games, a high hockey IQ, good skating, and good shooting shouldnt be a DEFENSEMAN's best attributes, and their definitely not ones that make him better than Del Zotto who has played well in his last two games.

if its a possibility send him down for a conditioning stint, bring up Mcilrath and see what he can do, Moore can be a good player he just needs to get his game back together.

 

[Raspewtin]

can we send him down on a conditioning stint? He has looked horrendous in these last two games, a high hockey IQ, good skating, and good shooting shouldnt be a DEFENSEMAN's best attributes, and their definitely not ones that make him better than Del Zotto who has played well in his last two games.

if its a possibility send him down for a conditioning stint, bring up Mcilrath and see what he can do, Moore can be a good player he just needs to get his game back together.

His hockey IQ is horrible from what I've seen. I don't know where everyone gets he's a smart player. He's shown me no reason to believe that.

 

[Puckface NYR*]

can we send him down on a conditioning stint? He has looked horrendous in these last two games, a high hockey IQ, good skating, and good shooting shouldnt be a DEFENSEMAN's best attributes, and their definitely not ones that make him better than Del Zotto who has played well in his last two games.

if its a possibility send him down for a conditioning stint, bring up Mcilrath and see what he can do, Moore can be a good player he just needs to get his game back together.

13.8 Conditioning Loan. Unless a Player consents, he shall not be Loaned on a Conditioning Loan to a minor league club. Such Conditioning Loan shall not extend for more than fourteen (14) consecutive days. The Commissioner may take whatever steps he deems necessary to investigate the circumstances under which a Player is Loaned on a Conditioning Loan. If the Commissioner has reason to believe or determines that the Club has used the Conditioning Loan to evade the Re-Entry Waivers, or otherwise Circumvent any provision of this Agreement, he may take such disciplinary action against the Club, as he deems appropriate. The Player shall continue, during the period of such Conditioning Loan, to receive the same Paragraph 1 NHL Salary, and be entitled to the same benefits, that he would have received had he continued to play with the Club.

You can't send a guy down on a conditioning stint just because.

 

[Miller Time NYR]

His hockey IQ is horrible from what I've seen. I don't know where everyone gets he's a smart player. He's shown me no reason to believe that.

Im not saying he has a great hockey IQ just pointing out how some believe he does, and it makes him better than Del Zotto who over the last two games has proven he is a capable defenseman, on the......right side.....

You can't send a guy down on a conditioning stint just because.

didnt have time to look up the rules about it, however if we bring Mcilrath up and he holds a spot, along with Falk holding a spot and Moore missing enough games he can be sent down it just has to be approved

pretty sure with him having been in and out of the lineup over the last two weeks, the rangers could send him down using his poor play as a reason for needing it.

 

[Beacon]

Moore is not waiver exempt

They can do a conditioning stint for two weeks to help him bring his confidence back up. He seems to have lost it, which is what causes his game to suffer.

 

[Thirty One]

Eminger did a conditioning stint last season, he wasn't recovering from an injury or anything. I think they flexed their muscles on Grigorenko because there was some implications with the CHL.

 

[Thirty One]

John Moore in his first 15 games: CF% 54.48
John Moore in his last 14 games: CF% 45.01

 

[Kwayry]

We have 2 dmen that have looked good playing man.

Very few teams in the NHL play man.

Solution: trade all dmen.

Makes perfect sense. I have no doubt Sather agrees.

I agree 100% with this post. You know your hockey.
The guy who is in trouble is Ulf. The best move he and this team can make is adjust back to zone and take advantage of the strengths of his personnel. At this point his system is making them look "underperforming" to the masses.

Shooting (I can probably go back and quote about 6,000 posts from members of this board about DZ not being able to hit water if he fell out of a submerged submarine, etc...)

So you make up your mind based on what 6000 posts said or you do some fact checking on your own?
Those 6000 posts and yours are wrong.

SA16 did some excellent work to dispel this fiction
Here is a compilation of his work which was removed from the open DZ thread for some reason ...
The jest of it is DZ shot accuracy is about average for the NHL. Big surprise isn't it?

Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
Found at http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...i&sortdir=DESC iFenwick is total shots attempted minus blocked shots - so essentially anything shot high or wide.

For defenseman last year who attempted at least 48 shots while at 5 on 5 (I'd rather all situations but it seems this site won't let me do that?).

1. Roman Josi 85.9% (78 attempts 67 SOG)
127 (last). Bryan Allen 46.94% (49 attempts 23 SOG)

37. Stralman 71.79% (78 attempts 56 on goal)
40. McDonagh 71.43% (105 attempts 75 on goal)
58. Del Zotto 68.89% (90 attempts 62 on goal)
111. Girardi 59.79% (97 attemptps 58 on goal)

Average:67.95% (6105 shots 8985 on goal)


Thanks for this site -31-. Amending my previous data to now include ALL situations and for players with at least 48 attempts (now I have only 96 players instead of 127? Not sure how that is unless either I filtered something wrong before or for some reason these sites have different data [maybe they had different filters based on showing players based on games played or TOI] but in any case it won't change the conclusions - just the sample)

1. Hunwick 82.6% (69 attempts 57 on goal)
96. Hamhuis 59.4 (105 attempts 62 on goal)

26. Stralman 73.3% (90 attempts 66 on goal)
41. McDonagh 70.1% (117 attempts 83 on goal)
78. Del Zotto 66.3% (122 attempts 81 on goal)
84. Girardi 63.8% (127 attempts 81 on goal)

Average: 69.8% (10240 attempts 7147 on goal)

The only conclusion I can make here is it looks like DZ really struggles with his shot on the powerplay while at even strength he is relatively fine. Hard to say much based on only 32 PP attempts (maybe slightly less due to possible shorthanded attempts) Unfortunately extraskater doesn't have data prior to last year so I can't go check his whole career

Edit: Difference in sample size is because extraskater filters for min 36 games last year.
Pietrangelo: 62% (150 attempts 93 on goal)
Byfuglien: 71.2% (198 attempts 142 on goal)
Doughty: 67.5% (169 attempts 114 on goal)
Subban:: 75% (168 attempts 128 on goal)

One thing to note is these guys shoot A LOT more. Obviously do not take this data as 100% accurate and meaningful because it's still small sample size but it's the best we have to work with. It's just numbers reflecting what happened last year not showing what will happen.

For ease you can get all the data here: http://www.extraskater.com/players/s...=D&season=2012 Just take FF and Shots and do Shots/FF for shot on goal%.

His entire game is better. Defense, offense. Everything.

Very informative post. Here is my sophisticated counter:
DZ's entire game is better. Defense, offense. Everything. Now what?

MDZ was better last year and has been better this year. That said, I have higher hopes for Moore since he is still relatively fresh into the league.

So ceiling wise, I believe Moore>MDZ, but it's close.

Currently, MDZ>Moore and it's not close. Moore should be sent down. I'd like to see McIlrath get his cup.

Pretty reasonable post. I question why Moore's ceiling > DZ's but we are allowed to have differing opinions.

I think should be playing on the right side, that's what he was doing in Columbus. Others on other boards are making the argument that he should be a forward.

 

[Kwayry]

Everytime I watch David Savard play, I wonder why Sather didn't get him instead of Moore. He would have been a good fit.
He probably asked and was denied for all I know.

 

[slipknottin]

Very informative post. Here is my sophisticated counter:
DZ's entire game is better. Defense, offense. Everything. Now what?

Then we do this.

“None of those three have proven they can be on the top two pairs,†Vigneault said. “The one that has proven that he is the closest is John Moore.
“John had maybe a little patch of more difficulties the last few games there, but he is a very young player with, in our minds, a tremendous amount of upside. If anybody would show us they deserve to play ahead of [our top four], I’d give them the ice time, but nobody has really come up and played better than those guys.â€

Now I shall wait for the argument that you know more than nhl coaches.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Then we do this.

“None of those three have proven they can be on the top two pairs,†Vigneault said. “The one that has proven that he is the closest is John Moore.
“John had maybe a little patch of more difficulties the last few games there, but he is a very young player with, in our minds, a tremendous amount of upside. If anybody would show us they deserve to play ahead of [our top four], I’d give them the ice time, but nobody has really come up and played better than those guys.â€

Now I shall wait for the argument that you know more than nhl coaches.

Pretty sure thats the general consensus around here. Looks like AV was asked to pick one.

"Well....if I have to....."

I feel bad for every coach that has to deal with a Sather roster.

 

[Miller Time NYR]

Then we do this.

“None of those three have proven they can be on the top two pairs,” Vigneault said. “The one that has proven that he is the closest is John Moore.
“John had maybe a little patch of more difficulties the last few games there, but he is a very young player with, in our minds, a tremendous amount of upside. If anybody would show us they deserve to play ahead of [our top four], I’d give them the ice time, but nobody has really come up and played better than those guys.”

Now I shall wait for the argument that you know more than nhl coaches.

AV has expressed his views on Moore having good upside a few times this season, and from what hes seen from DZ i can understand him picking Moore over him, however in past seasons DZ has proven hes a capable top 4 defenseman but that was for a different coach, the whole new slate thing wiped away what DZ did last year and in years prior and started a slate of inconsistency and proving nothing to a new coach, Moore has looked like **** over his last handfull of games but every young player is going to go through those stretches, DZ needs to get his game back on track just like Moore does.

theres also a reson DZ played his best games last year when he was getting 24+ minutes a night playing on the right side comfortably in a spot in the top 4, hes yet to get that this season.

 

[Kwayry]

Then we do this.

“None of those three have proven they can be on the top two pairs,†Vigneault said. “The one that has proven that he is the closest is John Moore.
“John had maybe a little patch of more difficulties the last few games there, but he is a very young player with, in our minds, a tremendous amount of upside. If anybody would show us they deserve to play ahead of [our top four], I’d give them the ice time, but nobody has really come up and played better than those guys.â€

Now I shall wait for the argument that you know more than nhl coaches.

AV is talking about potential in that quote, not about present game.
As to the here and now, who played top 4 last game with Staal injured?

 

[slipknottin]

Bigger problem is girardi and staal.

Should be a luxury having MDZ and Moore as the bottom pair. Instead they have to play significant minutes because two of the top 4 guys have their heads up their butt or have their head smashed into a shoulder

 

[GAGLine]

Eminger did a conditioning stint last season, he wasn't recovering from an injury or anything. I think they flexed their muscles on Grigorenko because there was some implications with the CHL.

Eminger had gone a long time without playing a game. Moore has been scratched once. The NHL isn't going to approve a conditioning stint for a guy who's been healthy and has played in every game but one.

I don't even get the purpose behind this thread. Okay, so we send him down. Then what? Who replaces him? How exactly is being sent to the AHL supposed to help make Moore a better player?

 

[slipknottin]

AV is talking about potential in that quote, not about present game.
As to the here and now, who played top 4 last game with Staal injured?

"Moore is closer to top 4 than the others"

But he isn't talking about now?

Yea. You aren't fooling anyone with your inability to read

 

[Kwayry]

"Moore is closer to top 4 than the others"

But he isn't talking about now?

Yea. You aren't fooling anyone with your inability to read

Ok doke.

You don't want to answer the question, do you? Who played top 4 last game with Staal injured? That's the now!
So who has a problem reading?

 

[slipknottin]

Ok doke.

You don't want to answer the question, do you? Who played top 4 last game with Staal injured? That's the now!
So who has a problem reading?

Oh so we are going to use a one game sample then?

Who was playing AT ALL the game before?

The coach says Moore > MDZ. The games played show he prefers Moore > MDZ.

But you think you can twist around a quote where he very clearly states Moore > MDZ into him saying that MDZ is better.

Good luck with that.