Should have kept Schenn

[4evaBlue]

Unfortunately Schenn had ran his course here in Toronto. The coaching was horrible and he lost his confidence. The best thing for him was landing in Phy for a new chance and be next to his brother. Something tells me he will regain his confidence and toughness and become a much better d-man in Phy.

Schenn didn't lose his toughness, he lost whatever little hockey IQ he had to start out with when his confidence dropped. He should have just stuck with the knee-jerk reaction of passing the puck over to Kaberle/Gardiner/Liles, as soon as he gained possession. It's worked for him for years.

Schenn wasn't the problem, it was Burke's love affair with Wilson that was the problem.

Partially. Add to that the awful contract expansion, and Wilson's love affair with Schenn. Schenn got every single opportunity to redeem himself. He played on many nights when he should have been scratched for being by far the worst defensemen on the team. Especially to start the season.

And people are right, loosing Aulie was a hug mistake and Burke blundered that one. He was worth much more than A.Carter.

You win some, you lose some. I regret losing Aulie, as well. I love his spirit, and the playing on the edge style, but his loss (even if Ashton amounts to nothing in the NHL) is not something that will set the franchise back.

 

[mapleleaf979]

Maybe I don't know enough bout JVR. Or I just really like Schenn but I kinda regret trading him. I mean we didn't give him a chance to thrive in a defensive system Carlyle will most likely bring. Plus Schenn was what I thought could be that big mean staple defense man on the second pairing. I see Reilly and Gards being our offensive 1-2 punch but it would of been nice to have Phanuef and Schenn as the mean bruiser guys. The only prospect who I think has a chance of making the nhl and being that guy is Holzer and he's more of a 3rd pairing guy. But hey who knows maybe having the main mean guy being Phanuef and then having a good 2way defenseman like Blacker will be good enough.

Do you guys think JVR could be a potential #1 winger? Or do you are him being more of a really good 2nd liner.

P. S. I know he went 2nd overall, I just have/had big expectations for Schenn.

In the last few years Luke Schenn has gotten slow and less mobile for a defenseman that was never really that fast to begin with. He has packed on good weight since his rookie year but the cost seems to be sacrificing his speed. Which was exposed in different areas of the ice, quite often. Schenn could really benefit from getting a little bit faster. With Gardiner and Reilly, I doubt they regret it.

 

[mapleleaf979]

I also agree with the people who regret giving away Aulie. Not only for policing other guys(scott Hartnell) but for his reach and he moved pretty good for a big guy. I have no proof of this but I believe he wanted out. He looked good paired with Phaneuf and was not given the chance again the following year and was back to the AHL. Tampa put him in the lineup the next few days after the trade and gave him 19 games.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

He looked good paired with Phaneuf and was not given the chance again the following year and was back to the AHL.

He was sent down because he was given another chance at the start of the year and he was terrible.

Carter Ashton might take a couple of years but he's a much better prospect IMO.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

Schenn was never good enough for us to miss him, unless you believe in his potential to be a top pairing shutdown guy. And if it's potential you're looking at, let me tell you about this van Riemsdyk kid.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Maybe I don't know enough bout JVR. Or I just really like Schenn but I kinda regret trading him. I mean we didn't give him a chance to thrive in a defensive system Carlyle will most likely bring. Plus Schenn was what I thought could be that big mean staple defense man on the second pairing. I see Reilly and Gards being our offensive 1-2 punch but it would of been nice to have Phanuef and Schenn as the mean bruiser guys. The only prospect who I think has a chance of making the nhl and being that guy is Holzer and he's more of a 3rd pairing guy. But hey who knows maybe having the main mean guy being Phanuef and then having a good 2way defenseman like Blacker will be good enough.

Do you guys think JVR could be a potential #1 winger? Or do you are him being more of a really good 2nd liner.

P. S. I know he went 2nd overall, I just have/had big expectations for Schenn.

You have to give to get. For everything that you mention about Schenn having abilities (upside) that we'll have trouble filling internally we also didn't have any big body wingers who can cycle and protect the puck and put up good offensive numbers like JVR.

Burkes was after JVR when he traded Versteeg so this is a player that he has targeted for quite a long time and Burkes pro-scouting has been good so I've got faith that this deal can be a win-win for both teams.

 

[diceman934]

He was sent down because he was given another chance at the start of the year and he was terrible.

Carter Ashton might take a couple of years but he's a much better prospect IMO.

Wow! Aulie is a much better player than Ashton and Aulie was never given a chance to play last year other then as a injury replacement.

Two reason he was not with the leafs last year.....

1) Dion
2) He had options no other D man did.

 

[TmlHockeyFan]

I would have preferred Aulie over Ashton. That man's a giant and gave the leafs size. He just needed to skate a little better and make better decisions.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

I would have preferred Aulie over Ashton. That man's a giant and gave the leafs size. He just needed to skate a little better and make better decisions.

Isn't that the point?

Who cares if he's 7' 2"?

 

[The K Man]

I would have preferred Aulie over Ashton. That man's a giant and gave the leafs size. He just needed to skate a little better and make better decisions.

That's exactly why we got rid of him. We have too many D men that are slow to think the game, and it's clear that we're aiming to gain hockey IQ on the back end after drafting Rielly, Percy and Finn. Low hockey IQ players can only get so far, especially if they play defense. I'm was a big Aulie fan and still like him, but trading Aulie for what Ashton has the potential for had to be done IMO.

 

[Bomber0104]

Frattin has 3 years on Ashton so strength, conditioning and defense shouldn't really be taken into account, Ashton will get stronger in all those areas with development.

Based on what? Your own expertise in the subject? I really doubt AShton develops a laser beam shot, bull strength, and powerful agile skating.

As for your previous post, Ashton obviously has a limit on his offense, but you're not giving him anywhere enough credit.

When was the last time Ashton has WOWED anyone with offensive instincts and feats. Oh right. Never!

Scoring 20 goals as a rookie in the AHL is tough for any prospect to do

K lets start with 20 goals. Even 15. See if he can crack 30-40 points this year. Maybe throw in some board work too. I'd be somewhat impressed,

. The only players you named that are faster than Ashton are Frattin and maybe Damigo, certainly not Aucoin or Kadri.

That's your own opinon but in terms of prospects that matter Frattin and Damigo are definitely faster. Kadri is close and we all know the offence he brings. D'Amigo is faster and has better defensive instincts and penalty kill atributes. I have high hopes for him.

Just realized this isn't a thread about Ashton though.

This is a thread about Schenn that realized we NEED A DEFENSIVE DEFENCEMAN OTHER THAN CARL GUNNARSSON.....which Aulie could have provided.

 

[SarcazemKadri]

Schenn wasn't getting any better unless he dropped 20lbs. Guy was a way too heavy to have quick feet. The days of big shutdown defenseman are coming to a close. The most effective D are excellent skaters with average size, a la Gardiner or Rielly. Good riddance Schenn, hope Philly enjoys picking up your dinner bills.

 

[Mess]

Schenn wasn't getting any better unless he dropped 20lbs. Guy was a way too heavy to have quick feet. The days of big shutdown defenseman are coming to a close. The most effective D are excellent skaters with average size, a la Gardiner or Rielly. Good riddance Schenn, hope Philly enjoys picking up your dinner bills.

You can't have a defense that consists only of puck moving Dmen either in a league where "Defense Wins Championships". At some point you have to also keep the puck out of your own net, if you want to be a successful team.

A team defense comprised only of Gardiner and Rielly type players, would lead the league in goals against. Players like Schenn are needed and designed to prevent goals, block shots, hit and clear the crease, and not score them as their primary objective, and when utilized to their strengths contribute just as much to team success as PMD do, that are not strong defensively.

 

[SarcazemKadri]

You can't have a defense that consists only of puck moving Dmen either in a league where "Defense Wins Championships". At some point you have to also keep the puck out of your own net, if you want to be a successful team.

Where did I say that? I said excellent skating D are the most effective. I then gave the two best skating D in the leafs organization as a comparison. Not all puck moving D are defensive liabilities, Mess.

 

[Liminality]

You can't have a defense that consists only of puck moving Dmen either in a league where "Defense Wins Championships". At some point you have to also keep the puck out of your own net, if you want to be a successful team.

It's good to have a mix of styles. I think the game has been shifting towards higher IQ dmen instead of the pure bruiser types for a while now though.

 

[Mess]

Where did I say that? I said excellent skating D are the most effective. I then gave the two best skating D in the leafs organization as a comparison. Not all puck moving D are defensive liabilities, Mess.

Last years Leafs team was 29th overall in goals against.

If one was going to address the leaky defense problem, than trading away your youngest, most physical defender in Schenn who lead all NHL Dmen in hits (on an already well known soft, small, physically challenged team), for another winger, wouldn't be the most logical way to fix the problem. IMO

While players like Gardiner and Rielly types are valuable in team success their contributions are seen offensively, and designed to replace a veteran PMD like JM Liles who plays a similar role, and not replace players like Schenn and Aulie who have vastly different objectives when they're on the ice.

Leafs desperately need more "defense first" Dmen to fix GA and PK issues that place them 29th in goals against and 28th in PK% overall if this team has desires of being more successful in the standings, not less.

 

[ACC1224]

You can't have a defense that consists only of puck moving Dmen either in a league where "Defense Wins Championships". At some point you have to also keep the puck out of your own net, if you want to be a successful team.

A team defense comprised only of Gardiner and Rielly type players, would lead the league in goals against. Players like Schenn are needed and designed to prevent goals, block shots, hit and clear the crease, and not score them as their primary objective, and when utilized to their strengths contribute just as much to team success as PMD do, that are not strong defensively.

Agreed, there is a definite need to upgrade the Goaltending.

 

[cynicism]

Last years Leafs team was 29th overall in goals against.

If one was going to address the leaky defense problem, than trading away your youngest, most physical defender in Schenn who lead all NHL Dmen in hits (on an already well known soft, small, physically challenged team), for another winger, wouldn't be the most logical way to fix the problem. IMO

While players like Gardiner and Rielly types are valuable in team success their contributions are seen offensively, and designed to replace a veteran PMD like JM Liles who plays a similar role, and not replace players like Schenn and Aulie who have vastly different objectives when they're on the ice.

There's more to being a good defensive defenceman than hits; positioning, skating, checking, high hockey IQ. Schenn has been showing holes in these areas since his sophomore year at least and hasn't shown any improvement. Of course, neither has anyone else on the team. I think Schenn was rushed, and hindered by poor coaching, high pressure and a losing environment. It was better to trade Schenn now and get good/equal value, then wait a year or two and receive only diminishing returns. Not to mention his $3.3 million salary is absolutely asinine and wildly disproportionate to his abilities and role.

I'll agree that trading Aulie was a mistake, especially since Carter Ashton isn't exactly wowing anybody.

 

[SarcazemKadri]

Last years Leafs team was 29th overall in goals against.

If one was going to address the leaky defense problem, than trading away your youngest, most physical defender in Schenn who lead all NHL Dmen in hits (on an already well known soft, small, physically challenged team), for another winger, wouldn't be the most logical way to fix the problem. IMO

While players like Gardiner and Rielly types are valuable in team success their contributions are seen offensively, and designed to replace a veteran PMD like JM Liles who plays a similar role, and not replace players like Schenn and Aulie who have vastly different objectives when they're on the ice.

Leafs desperately need more "defense first" Dmen to fix GA and PK issues that place them 29th in goals against and 28th in PK% overall if this team has desires of being more successful in the standings, not less.

Goaltending;

Jonas Gustavsson GAA: 2.92 S%: 0.902
James Reimer GAA: 3.10 S%: 0.9
Ben Scrivens GAA: 3.13 S%: 0.902
Jussi Rynnas GAA: 4.25 S%: 0.825

Maybe thats why we had trouble keeping the puck out of the net? Just a thought.

 

[Mess]

There's more to being a good defensive defenceman than hits; positioning, skating, checking, high hockey IQ. Schenn has been showing holes in these areas since his sophomore year at least and hasn't shown any improvement. Of course, neither has anyone else on the team. I think Schenn was rushed, and hindered by poor coaching, high pressure and a losing environment. It was better to trade Schenn now and get good/equal value, then wait a year or two and receive only diminishing returns. Not to mention his $3.3 million salary is absolutely asinine and wildly disproportionate to his abilities and role.

I'll agree that trading Aulie was a mistake, especially since Carter Ashton isn't exactly wowing anybody.

Outside of goaltending, NHL experts will tell you defense is the hardest position to play at the NHL level, particularly defensive dmen that now must face the Worlds best players in shutdown roles, which they're supposed to be good at..

The Leafs invested 4 years of development in Schenn from age 18-22 (whom by NHL standards was very young) to play the position proficiently, with further development expected & possible now that he has gained valuable experience during his learning curve years.

Now Philly will benefit at Leafs development expense from being able to insert a 23 year old Dman without the steep learning curve cost that Leaf Nation fans paid through his mistakes to get to this point.

Also what is Leafs current solution to filling his spot and defensive role on the defense, promoting a near 25 year old rookie in Korbinian Holzer (over 2 years older than Schenn),and beginning the NHL learning curve all over again, at team expense, with the uncertainty on how he will perform or knowing how he will fair once he is asked to stop Crosby, OV, Stamkos just like a young Schenn was asked to previously?

 

[The Podium]

You can't have a defense that consists only of puck moving Dmen either in a league where "Defense Wins Championships". At some point you have to also keep the puck out of your own net, if you want to be a successful team.

A team defense comprised only of Gardiner and Rielly type players, would lead the league in goals against. Players like Schenn are needed and designed to prevent goals, block shots, hit and clear the crease, and not score them as their primary objective, and when utilized to their strengths contribute just as much to team success as PMD do, that are not strong defensively.

Gunnarsson, phaneuf, Percy, blacker, Finn all two-way D, not to mention Rielly, Gardiner are adequate.

 

[zeke]

Mess, you told us that "defensive defensemen" like Komi, Finger and Schenn were the key to improving our goals against totals.

You were wrong.

 

[Stringer Bell]

I think people are forgetting that it came down to Schenn or Phaneuf, and obviously are captain was staying.

I remember reading rumours that Phaneuf had problems with both Schenn and Aulie.

 

[Mess]

Goaltending;

Jonas Gustavsson GAA: 2.92 S%: 0.902
James Reimer GAA: 3.10 S%: 0.9
Ben Scrivens GAA: 3.13 S%: 0.902
Jussi Rynnas GAA: 4.25 S%: 0.825

Maybe thats why we had trouble keeping the puck out of the net? Just a thought.

We also have a now fired coach with a poor non existent defensive system at the core of Leafs problems that exposed players like Schenn. Asking them to join the attack and get out of position as a result is playing to their weakness, at the expense of their strengths..

Its also a catch 22 here in many ways as a strong defense supports a goalie and improves his personal stats..

Secondly who's fault is it that Leafs played with those goalies? Mike Smith, Jose Theodore, Brian Ellott etc etc were all UFA's in recent off seasons to be had for free.. Mike Smith (TB) .899 Sv% --> UFA --> Mike Smith (Pho) .930 Sv%.. Brian Elliott (Ott) .894 Sv% --> UFA --> Brian Elliott (STL) .940 sv%.. Same goalie different environment, vastly different results..

Schenn was a victim of a bad coach with a flawed system, which flowed through to bad goaltending as a result, and was evaluated at ages 18-22 when most young dmen would have still been in junior or the AHL learning their trade. Development is not a 1 way street residing solely on the player as his environment and his handling and his coaching all play important roles in that as well.. Throwing a young defender to the wolves asking him to sink or swim is not good development, when his surroundings are as flawed as they have been in Toronto for his time here.

If Leafs had a real NHL goalie in the nets making saves, wouldn't that also help a young Dman like Schenn by covering up development/learning mistakes and building confidence in his game?

Now that coach has been fired, new better system being installed, and new goalie being sought to address previous team mistakes, its too bad that Schenn wouldn't have had the opportunity to perform and be evaluated under better conditions also as these changes would all only be positives to help in improvement.

Toronto's loss is now Philly's gain !!!!

 

[daveleaf]

Schenn didn't lose his toughness, he lost whatever little hockey IQ he had to start out with when his confidence dropped. He should have just stuck with the knee-jerk reaction of passing the puck over to Kaberle/Gardiner/Liles, as soon as he gained possession. It's worked for him for years.



Partially. Add to that the awful contract expansion, and Wilson's love affair with Schenn. Schenn got every single opportunity to redeem himself. He played on many nights when he should have been scratched for being by far the worst defensemen on the team. Especially to start the season.



You win some, you lose some. I regret losing Aulie, as well. I love his spirit, and the playing on the edge style, but his loss (even if Ashton amounts to nothing in the NHL) is not something that will set the franchise back.

Whoa guy! I guess you do win some and you do lose some.....and....there is a know it all around every corner. Happy holidays!