Should Carey Price’s number be retired?

[Lafleurs Guy]

He was regarded as the best player by this board maybe, not much anywhere else. The proof is in the pudding. He won the vezina once. The overwhelming majority of the time there was a better goalie in any particular year. He didn't separate himself from the pack. He was an excellent goalie, in unfortunate circumstances who doesn't have the hardware to support a jersey retirement. HOF, sure, in the rafters, not a chance.

A few points here.

1. Year by year doesn’t matter nearly as much as body of work. He was consistently near the top for goalies. And was largely considered the best goalie in the game. That’s why he was considered the best in the league and is a blue chip for the HOF.

2. Everyone in the league knew this guy was on horrific teams and we saw what happened when he went down - first to last place. Not many players have that kind of an impact on a team.

3. You are incorrect in saying only people on this board regarded him that highly. For a good three or four years he was considered among the very best in the game.

4. His career was brilliant and he’s a blue chip HOFer. That being said there will always be a ‘coulda been’ aspect to his career due to health and incompetenct management. Even then though, his play put him at or near the top for a brief period and he was outstanding In the playoffs.

 

[GrandBison]

He was regarded as the best player by this board maybe, not much anywhere else. The proof is in the pudding. He won the vezina once. The overwhelming majority of the time there was a better goalie in any particular year. He didn't separate himself from the pack. He was an excellent goalie, in unfortunate circumstances who doesn't have the hardware to support a jersey retirement. HOF, sure, in the rafters, not a chance.

I think he was the best goalie at some point but injuries made it unsustainable. If Lindros was healthy, he maybe would be seen as a hockey phenomenon, but that was not the case. Same for Price.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I think he was the best goalie at some point but injuries made it unsustainable. If Lindros was healthy, he maybe would be seen as a hockey phenomenon, but that was not the case. Same for Price.

That’s an interesting comparison. Lindros had top five player of all time talent but couldn’t stay healthy enough to realize it.

Price finishes seven times in the top ten for Vezina. Both have a Hart win… I think Price actually managed to be a little healthier than Lindros but both were dominant when they could play.

Overall, Price had the better career. Lindros only managed three playoff seasons with five games or more. Lindros should’ve been a generational player and instead wound up being a marginal HOFer. Absolutely tragic.

Lindros legitimately could’ve been right up there with Geordie Howe if he could’ve stayed healthy. As for Price, he was well on his way to back to back Hart trophies when he got hurt. Both guys were terrific but have ‘coulda been’ elements to their careers. Lindros more so than Price.

 

[Bombshell11]

3. You are incorrect in saying only people on this board regarded him that highly. For a good three or four years he was considered among the very best in the game.

I guess we'll just pretend like 2010 never happened

4. His career was brilliant and he’s a blue chip HOFer. That being said there will always be a ‘coulda been’ aspect to his career due to health and incompetenct management. Even then though, his play put him at or near the top for a brief period and he was outsta In the playoffs.

I can see why you may think hes a top G when you put the whole career into the mix.

BUt can we agree that during games there was usually a 2% of the time where he looked out of focus and made you wonder why?

Forget the team. Lets just focus on him.

2 instances i remember vividly, that Pleckanec own goal from a faceoff and that Rangers soft goal which we lost 0-1 in the playoffs. Those are some examples where he's 100% responsable and should have been ready, nothing to do with the team. You expect better from your Top G

 

[GrandBison]

That’s an interesting comparison. Lindros had top five player of all time talent but couldn’t stay healthy enough to realize it.

Price finishes seven times in the top ten for Vezina. Both have a Hart win… I think Price actually managed to be a little healthier than Lindros but both were dominant when they could play.

Overall, Price had the better career. Lindros only managed three playoff seasons with five games or more. Lindros should’ve been a generational player and instead wound up being a marginal HOFer. Absolutely tragic.

Lindros legitimately could’ve been right up there with Geordie Howe if he could’ve stayed healthy. As for Price, he was well on his way to back to back Hart trophies when he got hurt. Both guys were terrific but have ‘coulda been’ elements to their careers. Lindros more so than Price.

But my point is injuries did also affect his performances. If he was healthy in 2015-16, that would probably have change everything for the years to come.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

But my point is injuries did also affect his performances. If he was healthy in 2015-16, that would probably have change everything for the years to come.

I totally agree. He could’ve been among the very best goalies ever. But his career was compromised by injuries and he was on horrible clubs. He had a great career but it was more limited than it should’ve been. He should still be playing now.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I guess we'll just pretend like 2010 never happened

Who gives a shit about 2010? And look at the club in 2012 when Markov goes down... those were horrible teams to play on. In 2018 we had guys like Schlemko in front of him and the entire core of the team is replaced. If he'd f***ed off to even a decent team his numbers would've been incredible.

Even when Price hits his prime in 2011, his clubs are paper thin. No depth to them at all and then Therrien takes over in 2013...

He's not a one hit wonder the way you're trying to make it seem. From 2011-17 he has the best cummulative save percentage in the league. He finishes top 20 in Hart voting four times (twice in the top ten) and has five top ten Vezina finishes. Incredible considering he missed almost the entire 15-16 season. And for five or six years it was an auto win if we scored three or more goals in the playoffs. He was undefeated otherwise. And that's not even getting into the fact that he consistently led his team to upsets of better clubs in the postseason and dragged a sad sack club to the finals. He had 300 wins on rotten clubs by the age of 31.

You're talking about a sure fire HOF player, not a one hit wonder.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Leaf fans always wanted Price.....I know people who could not believe how lucky the habs were to have selected him. Price has many many fans......not just habs fans.

Players around the league, well we all know how they felt. Then there were the comments over and over the habs have nothing but CP31 which for years was true.....great goalie at the wrong time.

Price have Leafs fans as well, he was the most favorite canadian goalie in the canadian press overall, I could compared to Luongo. There isn't a big wow fanbase with Quick but after all he's been as good as Price.
Some athlete are hyper mediatized and they become showbiz tv spot, you know the golden boy all the ladies and all the genres like. Sometimes the narration of the exploits are waltdisneyesque, we can see the story-boards. Price with the french and the english medias were so high on Price, then add Toronto crew and the rest of Canada. The US follows and all the medias repeat the same. Price have the benefit of the story line.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Price have Leafs fans as well, he was the most favorite canadian goalie in the canadian press overall, I could compared to Luongo. There isn't a big wow fanbase with Quick but after all he's been as good as Price.
Some athlete are hyper mediatized and they become showbiz tv spot, you know the golden boy all the ladies and all the genres like. Sometimes the narration of the exploits are waltdisneyesque, we can see the story-boards. Price with the french and the english medias were so high on Price, then add Toronto crew and the rest of Canada. The US follows and all the medias repeat the same. Price have the benefit of the story line.

Price has the benefit of a story line? Quick had the benefit of much better teams.

Quick was behind the best defense in the league for years. Had protection Price could only dream of. And Price still put up better numbers - a full five points better. You think their numbers would've been close if the teams were switched? Not a chance.

 

[Bombshell11]

Who gives a shit about 2010?

Explains alot

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Explains alot

My last post to you here.

Guy Lafleur in 73-74.

21 goals and 56 points. In the playoffs: one point in six games.

Does anyone give a shit about this? No. Why? Because for the next six seasons he was the best player in the league. It doesn't matter if it took him time to get there, he got there. It also doesn't really matter that he didn't do much after those six years. Those six years are why he's considered among the best players ever.

Imagine going to the HOF, seeing Lafleur's plaque and saying "but what about 73-74!" It'd be totally stupid to do that and you'd be mocked for it. Nobody cares what these guys did at 22 years old. Nobody gives a shit about 2010. Nobody will ever give a shit about it. They will remember that he broke into the league with great numbers and when he hit his prime became the best goalie in the league for a good five to six year stretch. They'll remember that he was killer in the playoffs. They'll remember he consistently upset better teams in the postseason. And they'll remember that he dragged a bad team to the finals. That's why he'll be in the HOF.

Now, does that mean he should have his number retired? I think so. Others disagree and that's fine. I think the 'rule' about winning a cup to make it is a silly one. Connor McDavid might wind up being a top ten player of all time whether he wins a cup or not. Could you imagine him not being eligible because of that rule? I think it'd be ludicrous.

No Hab goalie has won more games for us than Price. No goalie in our history has as many upset playoff series wins as he has. A HOFer who was among the best in the league (and briefly may have even been the best player in the league) I think qualifies. No, he is not Guy Lafleur. He's not Maurice Richard or Doug Harvey. And if that's the bar, then we're going to have very few guys up there. But if you're going to have guys like Serge Savard or Roadrunner or Dickie Moore... then Carey Price certainly belongs.

Sidenote: I've seen McDavid's name come up here a few times and people getting mocked for brigning him up. The reason to bring him up is he's clearly a player who's among the best ever. Not only better than Price but probably even Guy Lafleur. The point in bringing him up is to show how silly the 'no cup rule' is. Imagine barring that guy because he's never won a cup. That'd be crazy.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I think he was the best goalie at some point but injuries made it unsustainable. If Lindros was healthy, he maybe would be seen as a hockey phenomenon, but that was not the case. Same for Price.

It's all about what could have been with Price. He was a an outstanding goalie for a short time that was probably regarded as the best by his peers whether his performance matched those evaluations or not. He certainly had a 5-6 year stretch where we has likely leading in his overall body of work, but injuries did derail him, but even while healthy, he couldn't cement himself as the clear best. He won 1 Vezina, came 3rd once, 4th once and 5th once. Others during his time have records equal or greater than that.

 

[JianYang]

So you don’t think he should get his number retired?

Well that’s what it is — a circumstantial honour. Every other retired number brought the ultimate trophy to Montreal. Most did it as stars and superstars, some did it as part of a legendary cohort. They gained this honour through their respective circumstances.


Oh, a comparison okay. Thank you for clearing that up. Price was compared to Crosby at times.

A circumstantial honour then essentially means being in the right place at the right time over and above the player's individual work... as if they are celebrating a team through an individual honour which is kind of strange.

I don't think that is the primary intention when they induct guys in the hof or retire their jerseys. What it does is show certain biases rooted for players being in a better team situation.

 

[Not The One]

The bottom line is that even with the enormous hype he got playing as goaltender for the Montreal Canadiens he has four years when he was in the top-5 for the Vezina. He was 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th. That's far from being extraordinary.

Look at it another way. If you removed Roy, Dryden, Plante, Richard, Beliveau, Lafleur's best year from their records would they still have their numbers retired? Absolutely!

Now do the same for Price. He wouldn't even be talked about for the HOF never mind having his number in the rafters...

 

[Ozmodiar]

Of course it should be retired. Can’t believe +50% think otherwise.

He carried the team for a decade.

Career cut short and interrupted due to injury but still played 300 games more than Dryden.

Incompetent management used him as a crutch during his prime years to mask their failures in building a winning team.

I don’t believe a young goalie would wear 31 anyway. Retire it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It's all about what could have been with Price.

If that were the case, he wouldn't be a HOF player.

He has a better resume than some of the players we've already retired. While there's 'coulda been' to his career, as is he put together a stellar resume. He's a lot more than a 'coulda been' career.

He was a an outstanding goalie for a short time that was probably regarded as the best by his peers whether his performance matched those evaluations or not. He certainly had a 5-6 year stretch where we has likely leading in his overall body of work, but injuries did derail him, but even while healthy, he couldn't cement himself as the clear best. He won 1 Vezina, came 3rd once, 4th once and 5th once. Others during his time have records equal or greater than that.

5 or 6 years is a lifetime. That is a long stretch of dominance. Lafleur's whole career is defined by six great years. And Price has upset wins, Hart finishes and a Cup final outside those six years.

The bottom line is that even with the enormous hype he got playing as goaltender for the Montreal Canadiens he has four years when he was in the top-5 for the Vezina. He was 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th. That's far from being extraordinary.

It’s more rare than you think. Now factor in his playoffs. Now factor in his wins, playoff upsets, taking a horrible team to the finals... and he has three more top ten finishes as well. That’s a HOF resume.

Nevermind his Vezina finishes, he has better Hart placements than some guys who we've already retired.

Look at it another way. If you removed Roy, Dryden, Plante, Richard, Beliveau, Lafleur's best year from their records would they still have their numbers retired? Absolutely!

Now do the same for Price. He wouldn't even be talked about for the HOF never mind having his number in the rafters...

This is a nonsensical argument. Let's flip it around, what if he were healthy for 15-16... then it's back to back Hart trophies.

He did what he did. We shouldn't credit him for things he didn't do and take away things he did. He has a HOF resume, that's clear. As for the jersey retirment, the only reason not to do it is that we didn't win a cup with him. That's it.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I see zero contradiction with saying that the Price is a HOF and that he shouldn't get his jersey retired. Cups mean a lot for the latter and shouldn't particularly matter for the former.

I have zero problem admitting that even if he'd won an extra three games (and subsequent Conn Smythe) against Tampa, 31 would go to the rafters. But he didn't, so it shouldn't.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

I don't think he should sorry.

It is what it is , getting retired in Montreal is harder than making the hockey hall of fame

 

[Bombshell11]

Does anyone give a shit about this? No. Why?

You obviously do because you said any time he was injured the team was tanking which is far from the truth. We also have an instance with Dudaji who was doing better with the same team in 2012-2013 and earlier in his career Huet was also doing better early on.

Then in his prime the team only put backups that would not challenge his position... so its a bit disingenuous to say that the team was worst when he got injured since the backups were hand picked to be kinda meh. Tokarski was his backup from 2013-16 dude... i mean come on.

Because for the next six seasons he was the best player in the league.

I wont allow you to put Lafleur on the same pedestal as Price... you're insulting Lafleur's achievements and thats not cool.

Nobody cares what these guys did at 22 years old. Nobody gives a shit about 2010. Nobody will ever give a shit about it.

Again you do, you tried to build a narrative of a flawless career and you got called out for it. When we're talking about retiring a jersey of a guy who doesn't deserve it, we gotta look at the whole body of work, we can't just nit pick what we want and leave the bad stuff out.

They'll remember he consistently upset better teams in the postseason.

What??? consistently... dude why are you such a homer for Price? this is madness, what agenda are you trying to push here?

Now, does that mean he should have his number retired? I think so. Others disagree and that's fine. I think the 'rule' about winning a cup to make it is a silly one.

Its not silly, this is the habs tradition. You cant have the rocket and price as equals.

Connor McDavid might wind up being a top ten player of all time whether he wins a cup or not. Could you imagine him not being eligible because of that rule? I think it'd be ludicrous.

Price is no where near McDavid's career, this is a ridiculous comparison

No Hab goalie has won more games for us than Price.

What about the losses?

No goalie in our history has as many upset playoff series wins as he has.

where did you pull that stat? you need to back this one up, im pretty sure you're dead wrong here

A HOFer who was among the best in the league (and briefly may have even been the best player in the league) I think qualifies.

Briefly... thank you, this is the issue, it just dint have any longevity.

No, he is not Guy Lafleur. He's not Maurice Richard or Doug Harvey. And if that's the bar, then we're going to have very few guys up there. But if you're going to have guys like Serge Savard or Roadrunner or Dickie Moore... then Carey Price certainly belongs.

Moore? come on man, this is crazy talk. I think you need to do a bit more study, Moore finished at the top of the league in 57-58, 58-59, in the playoffs of 59 he finished first with 17 pts, he played with Marcel Bonin (yeah who??) while Richard missed most of the season and had no points in the playoffs due to an injury. Moore stepped it up when he was asked to do so and was our best player and won the cup for us that year. He actually did it.

Yvan Cournoyer?
Serge Savard?

dude please, they're leagues ahead of Price

Sidenote: I've seen McDavid's name come up here a few times and people getting mocked for brigning him up. The reason to bring him up is he's clearly a player who's among the best ever. Not only better than Price but probably even Guy Lafleur. The point in bringing him up is to show how silly the 'no cup rule' is. Imagine barring that guy because he's never won a cup. That'd be crazy.

But if we had a McDavid here with the same stats trend, he'll have his jersey retired as well regardless of a cup.. McDavid is doing enough to warrant him a jersey retirement eventually.

Price needed about 2 more solid seasons and good playoff runs to warrant him the honour i believe... he's just falling a bit short.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Looking at currently retired numbers.

Tier 1
Howie Morenz
Maurice Richard
Doug Harvey
Jacques Plante
Jean Beliveau
Larry Robinson
Guy Lafleur
Ken Dryden
Patrick Roy

Tier 2
Butch Bouchard
Henri Richard
Serge Savard
Cournoyer
Geoffrion
Moore
Bouchard
Lach
Lapointe

Tier one is insanely good. Whatever you think of Price's talent, his resume isn't in that group. That's a 'coulda been' conversation all day long.

I don't think Price is out of place in that tier two group. It doesn't matter if you put Savard or Henri Richard or Cournoyer or whoever ahead... he's in that group of players. He has comparable or better Hart votes than most of those other players. He has better Vezina finishes than Savard has Norrises. He was actually among the absolute best players in the game and I don't think most of those guys quite reached that apex.

On the flipside, almost all of those players had longer careers. They all have cups (Henri Richard has ELEVEN) and were part of legendary teams. Bouchard for example was a different kind of player and a stalwart on tremendous teams at a time when blueliners were more stay at home. He'd certainly be well regarded in that group despite the lack of individual trophies. As for Price, he doesn't have the championships. Minus that though? I don't see how he's out of place there.

Future candidates and players frequently mentioned: Blake, Durnan, Mahavolich, Shutt, Vezina, Joliat

Players who should be in already? Joliat should've gotten it long ago. I think Toe Blake is long overdue, esp since his coaching history was so incredible. He deserves it on sentiment alone. Vezina is a weird one. Benedict was a better goalie and there were only four teams in the league, he was 31 when he even suited up. Durnan I don't think warrants it. Mahavolich wasn't here long enough and most of his best years are in TO. Shutt is borderline, I don't think it happens for him.

Joliat I think is better than some guys who are already retired. Blake I think is worthy. The others are borderline. I'd have zero issues if they went in first and zero issues if Price went in before them. I'd probably have retired both those others already though. Joliat for sure.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don't think he should sorry.

It is what it is , getting retired in Montreal is harder than making the hockey hall of fame

As it should be.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yvan Cournoyer?
Serge Savard?

dude please, they're leagues ahead of Price

Show your work.

 

[Bombshell11]

Show your work.

I mean i did for Moore

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I mean i did for Moore

You said Cournoyer and Savard are better. Tell me how.

Savard’s career is similar to Price in that it should’ve been better than it was but he got hurt. Price has better Vezina and Hart placements than Savard has Norris’s… I don’t think that it’s overwhelming towards Serge. Roadrunner? Great player but I don’t think his resume is as good. You think differently? Okay… why?

How is Price’s career not at least comparable to them?

 

[JianYang]

Price have Leafs fans as well, he was the most favorite canadian goalie in the canadian press overall, I could compared to Luongo. There isn't a big wow fanbase with Quick but after all he's been as good as Price.
Some athlete are hyper mediatized and they become showbiz tv spot, you know the golden boy all the ladies and all the genres like. Sometimes the narration of the exploits are waltdisneyesque, we can see the story-boards. Price with the french and the english medias were so high on Price, then add Toronto crew and the rest of Canada. The US follows and all the medias repeat the same. Price have the benefit of the story line.

Do you think quick isn't going to the hall of fame? I'd wager that he is.