Should Burke be given one extra year to redeem himself?

[The Apologist]

Not really.

If he inherited some similarly good prospects at the beginning of his tenure, you could argue he's done nothing positive.

I can't really remember if there were any decent prospects at the time, but you're reading into a contradiction.

How many of our good 'prospects' remain from the pre Burke days?

 

[KingBud97]

We traded them for phaneuf

 

[CellarDweller0]

I dont get how some fans can be impossibly patient with the failure that is Brian Burke in Toronto, but not even wait for Ryan Nugent Hopkins to turn 20, Nail Yakupov to play a game, and so on. Pretty impatient with teenage players if you ask me.

Just makes their whole stance transparently obvious. They dont really want to seriously discuss the issues, just kick and scream in defence of the fat managers that are ruining this franchise and bash every other team, manager, and player to do so.

I'm not sure that there is a GM in the league that we wouldn't be having this conversation about given the state of the team when Burke arrived. No doubt Burke misjudged the team making the Kessel trade and setting unrealistic expectations but that does not mean that that whoever else they could have acquired would have done things quicker. The two mistakes I mentioned set back the rebuild 1-2 season at the most, any other GM would probably have made other mistakes that would set back their rebuild too.

I've never seen a perfect rebuild, ever.

I would love all the posters who talk endlessly about the perfect rebuild and how it should be done, etc, etc..I would love to see areal world working example of it because I've never ever seen a PERFECT & COMPLETE rebuild that was done in 6 years or less. I mean personnel changes all the way from prospects to the big club, coaching staff and front office. Ever.

 

[hotpaws]

I'm not sure that there is a GM in the league that we wouldn't be having this conversation about given the state of the team when Burke arrived. No doubt Burke misjudged the team making the Kessel trade and setting unrealistic expectations but that does not mean that that whoever else they could have acquired would have done things quicker. The two mistakes I mentioned set back the rebuild 1-2 season at the most, any other GM would probably have made other mistakes that would set back their rebuild too.

I've never seen a perfect rebuild, ever.

I would love all the posters who talk endlessly about the perfect rebuild and how it should be done, etc, etc..I would love to see areal world working example of it because I've never ever seen a PERFECT & COMPLETE rebuild that was done in 6years or less. I mean personnel changes all the way from prospects to the big club, coaching staff and front office. Ever.

It wasn't the anti Burke crowd that put a time limt on the rebuild , it was Burke himself and all his supporters believed and defended him when he set those expectations . I have no idea why people continue to rewrite history to defend the guy . He set his goals he failed and now he's spewing any nonsense he can to try to buy himself more time .

 

[FlareKnight]

As to the question the topic raises, no he shouldn't be given more time. This year will be a wash regardless unless they can actually save the season. But if we're talking about Burke redeeming himself, he can try that somewhere else. How many more years exactly do we let this guy drag the team through the mud before some are satisfied?

At this point I don't think Burke has a clue how to fix the mess he's created. Despite all his talk about building from the net out his goaltending situation is a mess and the majority of bodies he's thrown on the blueline haven't worked out. He's also running out of time before Kessel can abandon this sinking ship and he's left with nothing after trading two high first round picks.

I don't see where the Burke worship is coming from. It's certainly not from the performance on the ice which has only gotten worse since he took over. July 1st has gone from "his draft" to a time to cringe as you await his next terrible UFA signing. The Leafs have become a joke and apparently everyone is ok with that. Nothing wrong with us getting beaten like a second class team against Boston the every year.

I don't think after how bad things have gotten that he should be gifted with more time. Can't get rid of him in the very near future, but the sooner he's gone the better.

 

[LeafsNation75]

How many of our good 'prospects' remain from the pre Burke days?

The only one that I can think of is Korbinian Holzer because on more then one occasion during interviews when his name is brought up, Brian Burke always says how he was draft pick of JFJ.

 

[The Blue Devil]

We've sucked for so long and you are willing to suck more just to see a fat oaf continue to drive this once noble team off the cliff?

One question:

When does the sucking end?

I mean we clearly aren't tanking because Brian Burke doesn't believe in that (and has traded multiple first round picks for good measure)

We clearly have been trying desperately to make the playoffs every year based on every move he's made (spending to the cap ceiling, trading multiple first round picks) but we've failed each and every time.

How much more failure are people comfortable with ?

He's traded 2(3 if you count the one he traded for, which he then traded to move up).

Look at the Rangers and L.A, how long did it take them to get competitive? Look how much time that those GM's got to turn their teams around. If I remember correctly, the Rangers were actually in similar situation as the Leafs heading into the last lock-out with Sather as GM for about the same amount of time as Burke.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Brian Burke said it's much shorter than that.

He said he doesn't believe it should take five years and he'll do it sooner...certainly acted upon that idea by promptly sending the highest draft pick the Leafs have ever encountered out the door.

So you actually have a high-mid-low.

Brian Burke has already admitted to being wrong about that so why you people keep bringing it up as some kind of an argument is beyond me.

Another thing, he never traded a high pick, he traded picks before the season started and had no idea of where they would end up. If he had traded the 2nd overall at the draft for Kessel then you'd have a legitimate argument.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Rask last time I checked hasnt led Boston anywhere.

The Leafs traded Toskala for the pick that became Lars Eller..not Couture who was picked before. The only reason you say its bad is because you have hindsight.

Can I say I think Burke should be fired because he shouldve traded up one spot from Kadri to pick OEL?

Wouldn't be fair. Hindsight.


Fact is JFJ had a way better record than Burke in his time here, and a better scouting record too. None of Burkes picks have made the NHL. Many of JFJs have. And it is sad Im defending him...look at me...but really only to benchmark how worse Burke has been,

JFJ had a better record because he came in with a Franchise #1 center, something Burke never had the pleasure of doing.

FYI, Gardiner is a Burke pick and he's in the NHL. As for your uneducated argument about his Leafs picks vs JFJ's, JFJ's picks that are making it were drafted in 06, that's 4-6 years of prospects developing. I'm sure a genius such as yourself doesn't have to be told that this is Burke's 4th year here and had it not been for the lock-out a couple of his picks would easily have been knocking/breaking down the door to make the team.

 

[The Blue Devil]

They also made it despite the Leafs finishing nearly in the playoffs...as opposed to the Leafs who have been one of the worst teams in the league under Burke.

We should not only have better prospects than we do because we've been so bad...but at least one should be on the roster making a difference. Not one though.

Kinda hard with this thing called a lock-out going on, you know the thing that's not allowing teams to play.

None of JFJ's picks that have made it so far have made a big difference either...

 

[The Apologist]

It's only a matter of time for Edmonton fans to reap the rewards, you only have to go over the rosters of the two teams. And it hasn't even been seven years out of the playoffs for the Oil.

Yep, only a matter of time and of Yaku, RNH, Hall developing incredible defensive and goaltending skills.

 

[The Apologist]

It wasn't the anti Burke crowd that put a time limt on the rebuild , it was Burke himself and all his supporters believed and defended him when he set those expectations . I have no idea why people continue to rewrite history to defend the guy . He set his goals he failed and now he's spewing any nonsense he can to try to buy himself more time .

So he was wrong about his 'timeline'. He's admitted he was wrong. I know its tough for perfect people who are always right such as yourself to understand, but yes, even general managers can be wrong sometimes. The real test is how you respond to being wrong. Burke started trading for youth and prospects. And this 'nonsense' he's spewing to buy himself more time, what is it exactly?

The 'anti Burke' group you refer to is stuck on one trade made many years ago that brought in a 21 year old superstar, who is now one of the best players in the league at 25.

 

[The Apologist]

He's traded 2(3 if you count the one he traded for, which he then traded to move up).

Look at the Rangers and L.A, how long did it take them to get competitive? Look how much time that those GM's got to turn their teams around. If I remember correctly, the Rangers were actually in similar situation as the Leafs heading into the last lock-out with Sather as GM for about the same amount of time as Burke.

Yup, I remember all the talk about what a joke Sather was. NY was looking pretty good last time I saw them. Same with LA, although I guess Philly's incompetence had more to do with that.

 

[Bomber0104]

JFJ had a better record because he came in with a Franchise #1 center, something Burke never had the pleasure of doing..

THe pleasure of doing?

More like the managerial competence to acquire.

 

[indigobuffalo]

Burke's done a great job getting this team younger and faster to match the modern NHL.

There have been some growing pains learning the post-(2005)lockout NHL's strategy, but with the Bob Gainey/Ron Wilson style of soft, speedy aggressive forechecking gone, and a Burke/Carlyle defensive (yet still speedy) and grinding style underway, we should see this team become a solid competitor within the next few years.

I fully expect that Burke will be extended for at least another 3 years.

I also expect that once the CBA is signed, Burke will put on his AA cap and finish a few more major re-tools to make this team as close to the Burke/Carlyle model that worked so well in Anaheim in the post-(2005) lockout era.

 

[Bomber0104]

Burke's done a great job getting this team younger and faster to match the modern NHL.

The goal of a general manager is to win.

Not get younger and faster.

We should be rewarding general managers with extensions based off getting the team more wins and more successful, and not pointless metrics such as younger and faster.

 

[CellarDweller0]

It wasn't the anti Burke crowd that put a time limt on the rebuild , it was Burke himself and all his supporters believed and defended him when he set those expectations . I have no idea why people continue to rewrite history to defend the guy . He set his goals he failed and now he's spewing any nonsense he can to try to buy himself more time .

If you reread my post I acknowledged that as one of his two mistakes so I am not rewriting anything to defend him. Who's the bigger fool, the person making claims of the end of the world or the person who believes them?

I rest my case.

 

[CellarDweller0]

THe pleasure of doing?

More like the managerial competence to acquire.

And this is where you demonstrate your ignorance. Just how exactly was Burke supposed to get a Franchise centre, there isn't even one for each of the 30 teams, with the assets he's had?

You are holding Burke to unrealistic expectations if you expect him to turn water into wine. You should step out into the real world, this isn't NHL 11/12/13 etc...

Wake up

 

[Bomber0104]

And this is where you demonstrate your ignorance. Just how exactly was Burke supposed to get a Franchise centre, there isn't even one for each of the 30 teams, with the assets he's had?

You are holding Burke to unrealistic expectations if you expect him to turn water into wine. You should step out into the real world, this isn't NHL 11/12/13 etc...

Wake up

LOL

You're making a fool of yourself.

In the time Burke has been here we have seen the following centers in circulation among 29 other teams through the draft, trade, and free agency:

Richards, Carter, Richards (Mike), Tavares, Nugent Hopkins, Schiefle, Huberdeau, Couturier, Galchenyuk, Staal, Duchene, Ryan O'Reilly, Mike Fischer, Jiri Hudler,

all of them being better than Bozak

Oh yeah, and he also decided to let Antropov go for a 2nd round pick who has like 2 points in the AHL

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

as someone has pointed out, that's absolutely incorrect.

jfj was assistant gm, vp, and director of hockey operations with the blues. prior to that he was both an amateur and pro scout for the senators. he had lots of hockey experience, was an up and coming gm. no reason an nhl team wouldn't hire him to be their gm. he actually had quite a bit more experience when he was hired by the leafs than peter chiarelli did when he was hired by the bruins.

you're judging jfj strictly on the short time he had with the leafs. you have a clear double standard if you don't feel he should have had 10 years before being judged.

I'll ask again (since you avoided it): what success did he have as a GM at any level prior to being handed the reins to Toronto?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

It's only a matter of time for Edmonton fans to reap the rewards, you only have to go over the rosters of the two teams. And it hasn't even been seven years out of the playoffs for the Oil.

So you agree, adding two first over the next two years will do nothing to affect that which is held so dear: points in the standings. Rather it seems we promote prospect development...in certain cases.

 

[Bomber0104]

I'll ask again (since you avoided it): what success did he have as a GM at any level prior to being handed the reins to Toronto?

So now the goalposts are moving are they?

Ken Holland says a GM can't be judged on his work until 10 years have arrived.

You (A Leafs and Brian Burke fan ) now want to amend this opinion to state that only GM's with past success deserve 10 years before they are judged.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound spinning, distorting, and completely derailing good discussions, just to defend the Leafs?

 

[Bomber0104]

So you agree, adding two first over the next two years will do nothing to affect that which is held so dear: points in the standings. Rather it seems we promote prospect development...in certain cases.

When we like the individual prospects in question and reasonably believe they can make a difference for a team in the future (Yakupov, Nugent Hopkins, Hall)

Quit distorting the argument to defend the Leafs and Brian Burke.

Its obvious you dont really believe what u say, but just do it to incite argument.

Hate to say it but you are breaking rule number one on this site:

2) Trolling: Do not post topics with the sole purpose of starting a dispute

 

[hockeyfanz*]

When we like the individual prospects in question and reasonably believe they can make a difference for a team in the future (Yakupov, Nugent Hopkins, Hall)

Quit distorting the argument to defend the Leafs and Brian Burke.

Its obvious you dont really believe what u say, but just do it to incite argument.

Hate to say it but you are breaking rule number one on this site:

2) Trolling: Do not post topics with the sole purpose of starting a dispute

Dont even bother arguing with anybody on these boards anymore...whats the point? You can like Brian Burke and the work he has done in Toronto...doesn't make it good. He is the most over-rated executive in hockey. Many people buy his BS. The man is a fraud and I cannot wait until his a$$ gets booted to the curb. What a BUST.

Brian Burke is the Patrick Stefan of General Managers. Fluke cup win in Anaheim does not make this man a competent GM. His work with a real disaster like Toronto shows all you need to know about this man's true abilities. Garbage in garbage out.

 

[Mess]

How many of our good 'prospects' remain from the pre Burke days?

Kulemin, Grabovski, Riemer, Gunnarsson, Frattin, Holzer

That group includes 2/3rds of our 2nd line, a top 4 defender and our starting goalie at present, along with our 2 most NHL ready prospects (that were non regulars pre-lockout).. We also had Schenn that was turned into JVR as residual return on the current roster.