Proposal: Shattenkirk to NYR

[SKNJD9]

STL would NOT have to add.

NYR would be adding a ton

 

[JT Kreider]

I'm sure you would!

Well if Larsson hauled in Hall, would asking for Fabbri be that far out of the question?

 

[BA Carroll]

As a St. Louis fan, I covet Kreider--I think it's been far too long since we've had a power forward at LW, and Kreider would help soften the blow of losing both Backes and Brouwer. He'd be fantastic for us. Which is why I'd be willing to overpay a bit for him. Most Blues fans wouldn't, but I don't presume to speak for any of them, and I'm obviously not Doug Armstrong.

Shattenkirk absolutely would re-sign to play for NYR.
Whether you could negotiate a cap-friendly deal you would be happy with is another matter, but given the dearth of talented RHDs with Kevin's skill set, I imagine you'd not have trouble finding a way to make it happen.

I was just curious to see what you all would come up with in terms of what additions from each team would even up the value, from your perspective.

You've all been very civil, and I appreciate that.

 

[KreiderHouseRules*]

A) Brooks only "leaks" what NYR tell him to. It's always misinformation / misdirection / intentionally attempting to publicly drive up or down a certain price.

B) I wouldn't trade Kreider straight up for Shattenkirk. Kreider is still controllable, and could still turn into a 30-30 guy. Shattenkirk, while certainly the better player right now, is older, didn't have the best playoffs, and most importantly here is only signed for one more year. There's no guarantee he re-signs and there's no guarantee the NYR would be able to re-sign him. Too many unknowns.

If Shatt was signed for 3-4 or more years, then the value would be close. One year away from hitting his first UFA, and a gigantic raise? No way; the cost is more like Rick Nash with 2M retained.

And if Stepan is traded, it's Shattenkirk+. Stepan is one of the top two-way centers in the game, the points per 60 are higher than some of the so-called "elite" young players that HF drools over. AND, he's locked up long-term on a great deal for a #1C, even if you think he's a 1B, which according to the numbers he isnt. He's top 20 for centers in PPG/60 over the last 3 years. There's 30 teams. You do the math. You'd be adding significantly to Shattenkirk who's 5 months away from being a rental.

#reality

 

[bernmeister]

Shattenkirk + ?

to NYR for

Kreider + ?

Shatts has 1 year remaining on his contract.
Kreider, I believe, is a RFA awaiting a new deal--arbitration?

Is it even value, 1 for 1?
If not, what would it take to make this a worthwhile hockey trade for both teams?

So we should un-make it.

Blow it up now. Trade every current roster player outside the younger guys (Hayes, Kreider, JT, Skjei, Buch, Rath). I'd even be OK losing some of these trades in the present if it meant a long term gain.

This roster as constructed ATM is very mediocre. We'll be decent enough to be a wild card team, maybe even win a round, but nowhere near good enough to make a serious run. And we certainly won't be bad enough to get those top 3 picks we desperately need. Nearly every legit contender's best players are players drafted in the top 3.

we had a good run. But we traded away a bunch of picks, prospects and as a playoff team every single year since the first lockout, we've never drafted inside the top 10.

Within 3 years we'll be the worst team in the Metro. And then we'll start the rebuild. But until then this will all be a huge waste of time.

Orrrr a less radical, much simpler solution would be to fire AV.

It's no coincidence nearly every player on our roster had the worst season of their careers, or regressed hard. The only player I show any signs of improvement was Miller. Oh, and we had our worst playoff showing since 2006.

All those things happening at the same time?

A drastic change is needed.

I mean did you guys see Glass out there with 5 minutes left down 2 goals in Pittsburgh for Game 1?!?!?

As a St. Louis fan, I covet Kreider--I think it's been far too long since we've had a power forward at LW, and Kreider would help soften the blow of losing both Backes and Brouwer. He'd be fantastic for us. Which is why I'd be willing to overpay a bit for him. Most Blues fans wouldn't, but I don't presume to speak for any of them, and I'm obviously not Doug Armstrong.

Shattenkirk absolutely would re-sign to play for NYR.
Whether you could negotiate a cap-friendly deal you would be happy with is another matter, but given the dearth of talented RHDs with Kevin's skill set, I imagine you'd not have trouble finding a way to make it happen.

I was just curious to see what you all would come up with in terms of what additions from each team would even up the value, from your perspective.

You've all been very civil, and I appreciate that.

A) Brooks only "leaks" what NYR tell him to. It's always misinformation / misdirection / intentionally attempting to publicly drive up or down a certain price.

B) I wouldn't trade Kreider straight up for Shattenkirk. Kreider is still controllable, and could still turn into a 30-30 guy. Shattenkirk, while certainly the better player right now, is older, didn't have the best playoffs, and most importantly here is only signed for one more year. There's no guarantee he re-signs and there's no guarantee the NYR would be able to re-sign him. Too many unknowns.

If Shatt was signed for 3-4 or more years, then the value would be close. One year away from hitting his first UFA, and a gigantic raise? No way; the cost is more like Rick Nash with 2M retained.

And if Stepan is traded, it's Shattenkirk+. Stepan is one of the top two-way centers in the game, the points per 60 are higher than some of the so-called "elite" young players that HF drools over. AND, he's locked up long-term on a great deal for a #1C, even if you think he's a 1B, which according to the numbers he isnt. He's top 20 for centers in PPG/60 over the last 3 years. There's 30 teams. You do the math. You'd be adding significantly to Shattenkirk who's 5 months away from being a rental.

#reality

I do not condemn OP for having good taste.
that said, Kreider is difficult to replace, and without him NYR = Canadiens
we do NOT move him unless
1) massive overpayment
2) part of package for an elite [like Doughty, not Shatty]

IF all other things were equal --- and they are not will explain 1 sec --- then we could certainly have interest in shattenkirk using other currency. However, unless he extends, which is not likely, we are looking at rental price for a rental.

there is another x factor: the expansion draft
if ny acquires Shattenkirk, they have to protect him.
However, if they hold out, and KS reads between the lines, he sees we sign him AFTER the draft so we had one more slot to protect one more asset. THAT is smartest way to deal w/draft, using his UFA status to work for us, not vs us.

Finally, rangers want to move more senior vet Fs - Stepan, Brass, Zuc, Nash - not guys like Kreider, Miller, etc.

Not sure such a scenario works whether for Shattenkirk of as a throw in on a bigger deal, but either way, most likely NYR will take chance on getting S'kirk on the cheap.

 

[JTRAIN1966]

I do not condemn OP for having good taste.
that said, Kreider is difficult to replace, and without him NYR = Canadiens
we do NOT move him unless
1) massive overpayment
2) part of package for an elite [like Doughty, not Shatty]

IF all other things were equal --- and they are not will explain 1 sec --- then we could certainly have interest in shattenkirk using other currency. However, unless he extends, which is not likely, we are looking at rental price for a rental.

there is another x factor: the expansion draft
if ny acquires Shattenkirk, they have to protect him.
However, if they hold out, and KS reads between the lines, he sees we sign him AFTER the draft so we had one more slot to protect one more asset. THAT is smartest way to deal w/draft, using his UFA status to work for us, not vs us.

Finally, rangers want to move more senior vet Fs - Stepan, Brass, Zuc, Nash - not guys like Kreider, Miller, etc.

Not sure such a scenario works whether for Shattenkirk of as a throw in on a bigger deal, but either way, most likely NYR will take chance on getting S'kirk on the cheap.

What about then.......

Shattenkirk
Schwartz
A draft pick or, a prospect

For

Stepan
Kreider?

 

[trevorftw]

This is like the 55th proposal I've seen from BA Carroll that significantly undervalues Blues players. Take a break, man.

I like Stepan or Zuccs for Shatty if we're talking trade with NYR. 0 interest in adding our ELC future stars to any trade either.

 

[Dbrownss]

What about then.......

Shattenkirk
Schwartz
A draft pick or, a prospect

For

Stepan
Kreider?

Are you serious? That's a non starter from the Blues.

I love it now that Ranger fans are cautious of Shattenkirk due to his contract. Yet in just about any other thread we have to hear how he's basically a ranger already. Unbelievable.


As for Krieder, leave that enigma in NY

 

[eco's bones]

I wouldn't like to move Kreider but if it was straight up for Shattenkirk and I could get Kevin's signature on a multi-year deal I would do it.

Being right handed and being a puck moving defenseman with an excellent shot--there's not that many players like that. He's a quite a bit better and a couple years younger version of Yandle. Much better defensively than Yandle for one thing.

Kreider is unique in his way too. He just hasn't completely opened up his toolbox. If he ever does--and that's an if--he could be a big star. Just as he is right now he's still really good.

 

[MissouriMook]

Well if Larsson hauled in Hall, would asking for Fabbri be that far out of the question?

I think you're mistaken on which end of the value spectrum the Rangers lie. The Blues going after McDonagh would make them the Devils in the context of the Hall-Larsson deal, not the Oilers. The Blues would only target McDonagh as a value grab if the offer was too good to pass up. He would absolutely improve the team, but adding a LD is not a "need" for the Blues. Under the hypothetical we were discussing, the Rangers would be eager to re-make their team and perhaps their identity. They would be the ones overpaying.

 

[JT Kreider]

I think you're mistaken on which end of the value spectrum the Rangers lie. The Blues going after McDonagh would make them the Devils in the context of the Hall-Larsson deal, not the Oilers. The Blues would only target McDonagh as a value grab if the offer was too good to pass up. He would absolutely improve the team, but adding a LD is not a "need" for the Blues. Under the hypothetical we were discussing, the Rangers would be eager to re-make their team and perhaps their identity. They would be the ones overpaying.

So the Rangers take a lesser offer from the Blues? They would just take there business elsewhere.

If the Rangers make McDonagh available they would certainly return a young player in the ilk of Fabbri or Parayko.

Stepan, Brassard, Lundqvist, Nash we would probably have to take lesser pieces for and lose the trade in the present.

McDonagh, given his salary cap and the huge need for defense league wide, would probably be the only return we would feel happy with.

And even then, Fabbri for McDonagh we still lose in the present, and probably for the entirety of McDonagh's contract.

We are not that desperate to trade McDonagh where we would feel forced to take a lesser offer.

 

[MissouriMook]

So the Rangers take a lesser offer from the Blues? They would just take there business elsewhere.

If the Rangers make McDonagh available they would certainly return a young player in the ilk of Fabbri or Parayko.

Stepan, Brassard, Lundqvist, Nash we would probably have to take lesser pieces for and lose the trade in the present.

McDonagh, given his salary cap and the huge need for defense league wide, would probably be the only return we would feel happy with.

And even then, Fabbri for McDonagh we still lose in the present, and probably for the entirety of McDonagh's contract.

You've kind of taken this discussion in a different direction than when it started. I stated from the start that I couldn't see why the Rangers would do it, was putting together a Rangers presumed desire to re-make the roster and presumed desire on the part of the Rangers to bring in Shattenkirk as part of that re-make. If those hypotheticals don't both exist IRL, then I absolutely agree on your point of what they would be after with McDonagh. My question was, if they were interested in a McDonagh for (an extended) Shattenkirk+ swap, what would the "+" need to be. You know Fabbri and Parayko are non-starters, so what would a realistic ask be?

 

[JTRAIN1966]

So the Rangers take a lesser offer from the Blues? They would just take there business elsewhere.

If the Rangers make McDonagh available they would certainly return a young player in the ilk of Fabbri or Parayko.

Stepan, Brassard, Lundqvist, Nash we would probably have to take lesser pieces for and lose the trade in the present.

McDonagh, given his salary cap and the huge need for defense league wide, would probably be the only return we would feel happy with.

And even then, Fabbri for McDonagh we still lose in the present, and probably for the entirety of McDonagh's contract.

I don't even know why the Rangers even consider trading McDonagh ? I would figure if, they're trading for Shattenkirk, it would be to pair them together .

 

[JT Kreider]

You've kind of taken this discussion in a different direction than when it started. I stated from the start that I couldn't see why the Rangers would do it, was putting together a Rangers presumed desire to re-make the roster and presumed desire on the part of the Rangers to bring in Shattenkirk as part of that re-make. If those hypotheticals don't both exist IRL, then I absolutely agree on your point of what they would be after with McDonagh. My question was, if they were interested in a McDonagh for (an extended) Shattenkirk+ swap, what would the "+" need to be. You know Fabbri and Parayko are non-starters, so what would a realistic ask be?

I don't think that's a trade we would be making anyway. It's a sideways move, McDonagh and Shattenkirk are pretty similar in value. The only difference is that McDonagh is signed for 3 more years to a very team friendly cap hit, where as Shattenkirk is probably looking at getting at least $2 million more.

The add would be nothing significant, IMO, to make it worth it.

A good young player, or an almost NHL ready prospect.

 

[BA Carroll]

I don't think that's a trade we would be making anyway. It's a sideways move, McDonagh and Shattenkirk are pretty similar in value. The only difference is that McDonagh is signed for 3 more years to a very team friendly cap hit, where as Shattenkirk is probably looking at getting at least $2 million more.

The add would be nothing significant, IMO, to make it worth it.

A good young player, or an almost NHL ready prospect.

Again, I'm not Doug Armstrong, and I don't speak for Blues fans everywhere--but if I'm the Blues' GM, any trade for Shattenkirk has to address a team need. There would be lots of disagreement over how to prioritize those needs, but the way I see it, the Blues most desperately need:

-A #1A/#1B center
-A tough power forward to replace the physical presence of Backes/Brouwer
-Cap friendly contracts

As I said earlier, I absolutely believe Shattenkirk would gladly sign a new contract to play and stay in New York.

McDonagh is an enticing player--any team would want him--but the Blues' would have a hard time fitting him into their cap structure. If we could get out from Bouwmeester's contract, that would be a different story. As currently constructed, the Blues wouldn't want McDonagh as part of any trade. [edit: Blues are looking to move salary from defense and put it into upgrades on offense; long term, trading for McDonogh doesn't help them do that.]

Brassard would be a great addition to the Blues, but again, his salary would be problematic, and I don't think the NYR would move him anyway.

The only pieces I see that the Blues would want from NYR are Kreider, Stepan and Miller. Kreider straight up would be my preference, but it seems that most on here think I'm undervaluing Shattenkirk in that deal.

Someone else suggested a package around Shattenkirk and Schwartz for Stepan and Kreider. Schwartz is by far the best player mentioned, so that conversation would be pretty short, unless you were adding Miller--which tips the scales too far in the other direction. And I can't see NYR giving up that much youth--those players all project as core parts of the Rangers' future, and that's too many moving parts.

I suppose it's too ambitious to dream up a solid hockey trade for both teams, but that's what I'm looking for. Help me out.

 

[JTRAIN1966]

HELL ! I just hope the Blues can sign the kid that reentered the draft that the Blues got in the 5th round, & he can make an Albert Pujols type of impact . Meaning, the way Pujols came to the Cardinals in his rookie season .

Sorry for not knowing the kids name right off of the top of my head guys .

 

[bluesfan3109]

HELL ! I just hope the Blues can sign the kid that reentered the draft that the Blues got in the 5th round, & he can make an Albert Pujols type of impact . Meaning, the way Pujols came to the Cardinals in his rookie season .

Sorry for not knowing the kids name right off of the top of my head guys .

Connor Bleakley and he already signed 3yr ELC

 

[JTRAIN1966]

Connor Bleakley and he already signed 3yr ELC

Thank you !

 

[Brendonhayden]

If they get him and extend him what will they do in expansion draft when they have to protect Staal and Girardi, leave Mcdonaugh out?

Sign him after the expansion draft he already said he wants to go to nyr and he would take a discount so they could get a informal agreement in place and just make it formal after the expansion draft.

 

[One Winged Angel]

You've kind of taken this discussion in a different direction than when it started. I stated from the start that I couldn't see why the Rangers would do it, was putting together a Rangers presumed desire to re-make the roster and presumed desire on the part of the Rangers to bring in Shattenkirk as part of that re-make. If those hypotheticals don't both exist IRL, then I absolutely agree on your point of what they would be after with McDonagh. My question was, if they were interested in a McDonagh for (an extended) Shattenkirk+ swap, what would the "+" need to be. You know Fabbri and Parayko are non-starters, so what would a realistic ask be?

Ok so then McDonagh is a non-starter.

 

[DieByTheShield]

I do not condemn OP for having good taste.
that said, Kreider is difficult to replace, and without him NYR = Canadiens
we do NOT move him unless
1) massive overpayment
2) part of package for an elite [like Doughty, not Shatty]

IF all other things were equal --- and they are not will explain 1 sec --- then we could certainly have interest in shattenkirk using other currency. However, unless he extends, which is not likely, we are looking at rental price for a rental.

there is another x factor: the expansion draft
if ny acquires Shattenkirk, they have to protect him.
However, if they hold out, and KS reads between the lines, he sees we sign him AFTER the draft so we had one more slot to protect one more asset. THAT is smartest way to deal w/draft, using his UFA status to work for us, not vs us.

Finally, rangers want to move more senior vet Fs - Stepan, Brass, Zuc, Nash - not guys like Kreider, Miller, etc.

Not sure such a scenario works whether for Shattenkirk of as a throw in on a bigger deal, but either way, most likely NYR will take chance on getting S'kirk on the cheap.

Krieder is not Jesus, contrary to what you think. He's good, but very streaky and easily tradeable. If Kreider was traded for Shattenkirk I would drive him to LaGuardia myself.

 

[Captain Creampuff]

I would rather have Rick Trash with salary retained over Kreider.

 

[Ranksu]

Rags gets Shattery for free next summer, don't waste assets for him now.

 

[Mike Liut]

Kreider + ? For Shatty?

 

[Irishguy42]

Shattenkirk has already expressed that he likes the Rangers and indicates he wants to play there eventually.

Just sign him when he's a UFA. Spend no assets getting him. Done.