Confirmed with Link: Sharks acquire Cody Ceci and 2025 3rd for Ty Emberson

[Sendhelplease]

There is of course a cap dump which is obviously different than a salary dump. I am not sure what the difference is but I am sure someone can figure it out.

 

[weastern bias]

Pinkfloyd saying it's okay to admit when you're wrong?

Hodge decrying an appeal to authority?

This thread has everything!

 

[Pinkfloyd]

lol we need to define cap dump now. Is it:

A) a player DUMPed for CAP reasons
B) a CAP hit DUMPed for other reasons
C) a player and CAP DUMPed for unknown reasons

A would be like Ceci, B would be like Burns, C would be like Walman

I think there's definitely a sound argument where all three of those situations are considered cap dumps. I don't think a cap dump is a narrow definition. You can accomplish multiple things while doing something that involves dumping cap.

Pinkfloyd saying it's okay to admit when you're wrong?

Hodge decrying an appeal to authority?

This thread has everything!

That never happened. You're wrong. Stop.

 

[STL Shark]

What year is this? 2013? Who the hell is still using "CFrel" and "FFrel" to judge players? I assure you no NHL club is using Natural Stat Trick to decide whether to acquire a player. They have troves of RFID tracking data capable of generating granular analysis of how a player individually contributes to team success or failure rather than simply making an assumption based on what occurs when he's on the ice. They also have professional scouts.

I love that you accuse others of appealing to the authority of actual NHL coaches and management who clearly see some value in Ceci while you yourself appeal to the authority of dumb hockey fans who have come to this "universally known observation" that Ceci sucks.

When you look at xGF% amongst Ceci and his teammates, look at the other less telling but still real data points like CFrel/FFrel, and then listen to the people that watch him every night (i.e. Edmonton fans) say he stinks, odds are that he stinks. It isn;t taking one cherry picked stat to say a guy isn't good. It's a deal where when everything points in a single direction, odds are that is the direction.

If we all came here and said Ceci was great, you'd just be on the other side saying that he stinks because that is just the contrarian fool that you are and always have been around here. You're somehow in the minority of every single debate that ever comes through this site because you get off to the sheer joy of arguing.

 

[TheBeard]

listen to the people that watch him every night (i.e. Edmonton fans) say he stinks, odds are that he stinks.

I've heard fans here say the same about Mario Ferraro so I tend to take the extreme emotional opinions of some fans across the league with a grain of salt.

 

[Hodge]

Per usual, you can't read. When you look at xGF% amongst Ceci and his teammates, look at the other less telling but still real data points like CFrel/FFrel, and then listen to the people that watch him every night (i.e. Edmonton fans) say he stinks, odds are that he stinks. It isn;t taking one cherry picked stat to say a guy isn't good. It's a deal where when everything points in a single direction, odds are that is the direction.

If we all came here and said Ceci was great, you'd just be on the other side saying that he stinks because that is just the contrarian fool that you are and always have been around here. You're somehow in the minority of every single debate that ever comes through this site because you get off to the sheer joy of arguing.

"After looking at a bunch of outmoded decontextualized stats and informally polling a group of emotionally invested morons, it's clear that Ceci is garbage."

Yes, I was in the minority of posters here who effusively praised the Meier, Karlsson and Hertl trades as soon as they were made. It's almost like fan consensus is a terrible barometer of whether or not a trade was good.

 

[TheBeard]

"After looking at a bunch of outmoded decontextualized stats and informally polling a group of emotionally invested morons, it's clear that Ceci is garbage."

Yes, I was in the minority of posters here who effusively praised the Meier, Karlsson and Hertl trades as soon as they were made. It's almost like fan consensus is a terrible barometer of whether or not a trade was good.

From what I remember a majority of fans here praised all three trades. I think I was in the extreme minority when I came out against the Hertl trade, but admittedly it was an emotional reaction spawned mostly by the team he was traded to and not the return per se.

 

[Hodge]

From what I remember a majority of fans here praised all three trades. I think I was in the extreme minority when I came out against the Hertl trade, but admittedly it was an emotional reaction spawned mostly by the team he was traded to and not the return per se.

Feel free to read through the thread...

Confirmed with Link: - Tomas Hertl 17% retained, 2025 3rd, 2027 3rd to Vegas for C David Edstrom, 2025 1st

forums.hfboards.com

 

[TheBeard]

Feel free to read through the thread...

Confirmed with Link: - Tomas Hertl 17% retained, 2025 3rd, 2027 3rd to Vegas for C David Edstrom, 2025 1st

forums.hfboards.com

It reads like a bunch of people were initially upset the team traded their favorite player to their least favorite team and then me losing my mind. I understand you don't seem to have any emotion al connections to players, so I can understand why it had no immediate effect on you. Within like an hour it was apparent most excepted it was a solid trade for the Sharks (and me, continuing to lose his mind).

 

[Hodge]

It reads like a bunch of people were initially upset the team traded their favorite player to their least favorite team and then me losing my mind. I understand you don't seem to have any emotion al connections to players, so I can understand why it had no immediate effect on you. Within like an hour it was apparent most excepted it was a solid trade for the Sharks (and me, continuing to lose his mind).

Which is exactly why, as you wrote a few posts ago, the opinions of overly emotional fans should be ignored when it comes to judging trades. I don't care that some Oilers or Sens fans seem to hate Ceci. I simply do not trust them and don't understand why anyone would.

 

[TheBeard]

Which is exactly why, as you wrote a few posts ago, the opinions of overly emotional fans should be ignored when it comes to judging trades. I don't care that some Oilers or Sens fans seem to hate Ceci. I simply do not trust them and don't understand why anyone would.

I didn't say it about trades, I said it about judging players. Fans build up a narrative for themselves and many don't have the ability to walk it back. Narratives the get built up over time, sometimes years. Initial reactions to trade I FOR SURE take with a grain of salt though.

 

[Hodge]

I didn't say it about trades, I said it about judging players. Fans build up a narrative for themselves and many don't have the ability to walk it back. Narratives the get built up over time, sometimes years. Initial reactions to trade I FOR SURE take with a grain of salt though.

Same difference. The last people I would ever turn to for accurate judgments of a player are their team's fanbase.

 

[TheBeard]

Same difference. The last people I would ever turn to for accurate judgments of a player are their team's fanbase.

It depends, but for me personally knowing the poster and their willingness to admit ever being wrong makes a difference into how much stock I put into their opinion.

 

[jarr92]

Whether or not Ceci is a cap dump can easily be determined by Edmonton's valuation of Emberson, but we don't have that info.

IMO there is no possible way 24 year old Emberson, having only played 30 NHL games with a lack of great pedigree, would be worth a 3rd round pick. That means at least part of the value for Edmonton was shedding Ceci's cap. AKA a cap dump.

 

[jarr92]

"After looking at a bunch of outmoded decontextualized stats and informally polling a group of emotionally invested morons, it's clear that Ceci is garbage."

You're the only poster I can think of that is still posting JFresh to try to prove your point, so this is pretty funny.

 

[Hodge]

You're the only poster I can think of that is still posting JFresh to try to prove your point, so this is pretty funny.

Only in response to people who base their opinions on that stuff then try to claim Barabanov is good or whatever.

 

[tiburon12]

When you look at xGF% amongst Ceci and his teammates, look at the other less telling but still real data points like CFrel/FFrel, and then listen to the people that watch him every night (i.e. Edmonton fans) say he stinks, odds are that he stinks. It isn;t taking one cherry picked stat to say a guy isn't good. It's a deal where when everything points in a single direction, odds are that is the direction.

If we all came here and said Ceci was great, you'd just be on the other side saying that he stinks because that is just the contrarian fool that you are and always have been around here. You're somehow in the minority of every single debate that ever comes through this site because you get off to the sheer joy of arguing.

EDM fans don't think Ceci stinks tho. They thought the Nurse/Ceci pairing was awful but they did not think Ceci was awful. This post is pretty much the prevailing sentiment on this site and in real life. I watched far too many oilers games this year with EDM fans.

Toronto fans think Ceci stinks. And because of that goofy ass missed shot in the playoffs everyone has drank the TOR media koolaid and just regurgitates that he stinks. THAT is the reality. Let's not pretend it's otherwise

 

[gaucholoco3]

There's a difference but not in whether or not it's a cap dump trade. And you did say that earlier. You are still wrong. It is still a cap dump and still makes Ceci a cap dump. Plenty of useful players have been traded as cap dumps.

If they matched on Broberg then you could argue it was a cap dump. But by not matching on the offer sheets it was clear they didn’t value Ceci at $3 million as much as Emberson at $700k. That is not a cap dump even though they get cap saving since they didn’t need to dump him to match the offer sheets. They have space to fit Ceci under the cap but they are choosing to slot a cheaper player in that spot.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If the matched on Broberg then you could argue it was a cap dump. But by not matching on the offer sheets it was clear they didn’t value Ceci at $3 million as much as Emberson at $700k. That is not a cap dump even though they get cap saving since they didn’t need to dump him to match the offer sheets. They have space to fit Ceci under the cap but they are choosing to slot a cheaper player in that spot.

I don't see how that argument makes it not a cap dump. Cap dumps don't necessarily have to be out of need.

 

[gaucholoco3]

I don't see how that argument makes it not a cap dump. Cap dumps don't necessarily have to be out of need.

At this point it is arguing semantics (which is what message boards are for). I think for a move to be considered a cap dump it needs to be a position of need or a future considerations trade such as Walman or Glass.

Player value in a cap league is inherently tied to their cap hit. It is entirely plausible that Edmonton with prior connections to Emberson value him at $925k as worth significantly more than Ceci at $3.25 million. You could say the value they place on Emberson at that cap hit over Ceci at his cap hit is worth a 3rd round pick to Edmonton.

This doesn’t mean Edmonton had to dump cap. Also for those saying no way Emberson was worth a 3rd round pick it is clear he was. Not for his on ice play entirely but his play at that cap hit was worth a 3rd round pick to Edmonton especially with his AHL coach wanting him.

Grier capitalized on a coach wanting one of his guys to get Ceci who is a player that provides more value and certainty to the Sharks as they integrate their young stars.

This is a win win trade which is what all trades are, but it is not “sexy” enough or interesting enough to say a trade is a mutually agreed upon transaction that both teams feel happy about.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

At this point it is arguing semantics (which is what message boards are for). I think for a move to be considered a cap dump it needs to be a position of need or a future considerations trade such as Walman or Glass.

Player value in a cap league is inherently tied to their cap hit. It is entirely plausible that Edmonton with prior connections to Emberson value him at $925k as worth significantly more than Ceci at $3.25 million. You could say the value they place on Emberson at that cap hit over Ceci at his cap hit is worth a 3rd round pick to Edmonton.

This doesn’t mean Edmonton had to dump cap. Also for those saying no way Emberson was worth a 3rd round pick it is clear he was. Not for his on ice play entirely but his play at that cap hit was worth a 3rd round pick to Edmonton especially with his AHL coach wanting him.

Grier capitalized on a coach wanting one of his guys to get Ceci who is a player that provides more value and certainty to the Sharks as they integrate their young stars.

This is a win win trade which is what all trades are, but it is not “sexy” enough or interesting enough to say a trade is a mutually agreed upon transaction that both teams feel happy about.

I think that's too narrow an interpretation of a cap dump trade. If we assume your Emberson point with Edmonton is true where they value his cap hit at 925k at a 3rd round pick, then they dumped Ceci to us for nothing. That's a cap dump. The Patrik Laine trade is a similar example. Columbus didn't need the cap space either but they pretty clearly made the move to dump the cap hit and term for a cheap return. Lots of teams will dump cap ahead of when they need to in order to maintain cap flexibility but that's still dumping cap.

I still agree that it's more or less a win-win trade for the two teams and a positive for the team but it's perfectly reasonable to classify it as a cap dump trade. The Oilers deciding not to match doesn't change that because their intentions are still to use that space whether that's now or at the deadline.

 

[TheBeard]

I hate the concept of cap dump because it doesn’t take into account the needs of both teams. Did Vegas take Hertl only because he was a cap dump? No, they needed him for where their team is now. Edmonton didn’t need Ceci whereas we do.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I hate the concept of cap dump because it doesn’t take into account the needs of both teams. Did Vegas take Hertl only because he was a cap dump? No, they needed him for where their team is now. Edmonton didn’t need Ceci whereas we do.

Vegas didn't take Hertl only because he was a cap dump but a cap dump deal isn't mutually exclusive to other things occurring during a trade. It's not one or the other. You can accomplish multiple objectives in the trade but part of that deal for the Sharks was absolutely dumping Hertl's long term cap hit. And I don't think we needed Ceci.

 

[STL Shark]

I don't see how that argument makes it not a cap dump. Cap dumps don't necessarily have to be out of need.

And even then, it was still out of need. Edmonton is better off without Kane on LTIR so that they can accrue cap space throughout the season and therefore bring in a more expensive TDL piece and/or play Kane whenever he's healthy enough to do so.

 

[TheBeard]

Vegas didn't take Hertl only because he was a cap dump but a cap dump deal isn't mutually exclusive to other things occurring during a trade. It's not one or the other. You can accomplish multiple objectives in the trade but part of that deal for the Sharks was absolutely dumping Hertl's long term cap hit. And I don't think we needed Ceci.

Well that was my point except I do think the sharks needed Cody Ceci. If not Cody then A Cody Ceci type of minute muncher. Relying on old guys like Ruuta and Vlasic or glass disguised as hockey players like Emberson and Benning won’t help the forwards and putting too much on the plates of young guys like Thrun or Makh won’t help them either. All that’s left are Ferraro who struggles when asked to do too much and Wallman.

And even then, it was still out of need. Edmonton is better off without Kane on LTIR so that they can accrue cap space throughout the season and therefore bring in a more expensive TDL piece and/or play Kane whenever he's healthy enough to do so.

I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if there’s already a handshake sweetheart deal between Edmonton and SJ for either Ferraro or Ceci at the deadline.