News Article: Shane Pinto suspended 41 games for violating gambling rules

[Sens of Anarchy]

Why? Because it's crap. He's a wanna be sports writer that never figured out that having a profoundly negative disposition towards your subject matter ultimately doesn't lead to continuous professional employment

Sounds like a factless rant vs a serious critique

No. He'll just move on to bitching about the next thing. It's his disposition. Some people are just like that.

More of the same "crap" to use your words. Perhaps you should stick to reading people that agree with your views. Garrioch would seem to fit that.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I've read some of his stuff over the years. Imo, he looks at any given situation, finds an interpretation of the situation that makes something around the team look incompetent and that's what he stresses in his writing

Look at what I posted about. Pinto is "missing games of development" The ONLY way he missed games was if he signed leading up to camp.

So, like I said, leading up to camp, the team is informed of this situation and a potential suspension coming. And the team would have known the suspension was going to be serious. 41 games.

Imo, trying to sign Pinto stopped the moment they were aware of the NHL investigation. Why? Because it was the intelligent thing to do. You're not going to ditch NHL assets to sign a player that can't play. You're getting f***ed both ways.

We've already seen plenty of comments in the media that Pinto is appreciative of the team keeping it tight lipped. So all thru camp when we saw comments like "we're grinding hard to get him signed" it's pretty evident if you can put 2 and 2 together that they weren't grinding at all. They were keeping a delicate situation under wraps. What else could Dorion say? Ya, we're not in a hurry to sign Pinto because of his gambling issue. The entire thing was misdirection and done beautifully by all involved.

The media and the insiders are like blood hounds. But this situation came out of nowhere and Pinto is thanking the team for keeping it quiet.

But then you've got this "missing games" comment. Frankly, you'd have to be pretty thick to come to the conclusion that signing him a month ago was the right play with this overhang. But here we are. I guess some concluded that. He's criticizing the team for Pinto missing development time. And had they signed Pinto a month ago, traded Joseph and a 2nd to make it happen, he'd never stfu about the incompetence of having done that

You are twisting his words to fit your narrative and interpretation of the chain of events or you have a reading comprehension issue which based on many of your other rebuttals/responses I won't discard.

 

[mouser]

So this bit is new info;

"Under the terms of the ban, Pinto isn’t allowed to practice with the Senators or spend time at the Canadian Tire Centre. He won’t be able to return to the rink until 10 days before he’s eligible to return and that’s scheduled for Jan. 21 against the Philadelphia Flyers"

Seems like an odd stipulation.

I believe that’s been standard protocol with longer suspensions (maybe 10+ games?) for a while. Player can only use team facilities, team personnel, and team practices when the suspension is nearing its end.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Ok. So imagine this. The Sens sign Pinto to a 2 year 2.5 M deal on the eve of camp, moving Joseph's contract to make it all happen

And people are jumping up and down with joy that Pinto is signed and screaming about asset management because it cost a 2nd to move Joseph

Then on the eve of the season, the league announces Pinto's suspension and news breaks that the Senators were aware of the league's investigation into Pinto a week prior to camp starting

So we're down Pinto, Joseph and a 2nd.

Can you imagine the heat Dorion takes for that? The only way Pinto is missing "games worth of development" is if he is signed and playing a few preseason games with this investigation hanging over his head.

But guys like Nichols and various posters here would be talking about Dorion's stupidity for years had he signed him and moved Joseph. Christ if that 2nd turned into a player, they'd be bitching about it 10 years from now.

the issue has always been that Dorion put himself in a position where he couldn't sign a valuable player without it costing a valuable asset just for the right to get rid of another valuable player.

He is paid to manage and he f***ed that shit up proper. we aren't some team that has contented for 5 straight years that we should be having cap issues like that.

5m in dead salary. it's a joke. and all on dorion.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Ok. So imagine this. The Sens sign Pinto to a 2 year 2.5 M deal on the eve of camp, moving Joseph's contract to make it all happen

And people are jumping up and down with joy that Pinto is signed and screaming about asset management because it cost a 2nd to move Joseph

Then on the eve of the season, the league announces Pinto's suspension and news breaks that the Senators were aware of the league's investigation into Pinto a week prior to camp starting

So we're down Pinto, Joseph and a 2nd.

Can you imagine the heat Dorion takes for that? The only way Pinto is missing "games worth of development" is if he is signed and playing a few preseason games with this investigation hanging over his head.

But guys like Nichols and various posters here would be talking about Dorion's stupidity for years had he signed him and moved Joseph. Christ if that 2nd turned into a player, they'd be bitching about it 10 years from now.

Signing him without knowledge of the investigation is a faultless offense. Bad luck but not on Dorion.

Signing him after the league told them not to and to cease negotiations would indeed have been stupid as hell.

 

[Larionov]

So in terms of salary, Pinto's leverage is now hovering around zero. As such, I think he signs in January for a pro-rated one million with perhaps a few makeable bonuses tossed in just to throw him a bone.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

So in terms of salary, Pinto's leverage is now hovering around zero. As such, I think he signs in January for a pro-rated one million with perhaps a few makeable bonuses tossed in just to throw him a bone.

The only way he has leverage is if the Senators are fighting for a playoff spot, and a player going on LTIR gives them an excess of cap space to use on Pinto beyond what they would get just by sending down a player.

The Senators may lose a draft pick because of the Dadonov fiasco. They are already low on picks if you look at the amount of past and future picks they have traded. So long as whatever Pinto gets on a 1 year deal this year is equal to or less than what the Senators think he will get on his next contract (re: qualifying offer), Pinto could force their hand to get a higher 1 year deal if they have the ability to do it due to LTIR.

For example, if they really think he deserves 1 year 1M, but they have the ability due to a player being on LTIR to pay him 1.5M, and they are fighting tooth and nail for a playoff spot, are they really going to turn down the shot at getting a free rental over a difference of 500k in space, which in this scenario where they don't want to burn a 1st or 2nd on a big rental, they won't use elsewhere anyways?

Without someone being on LTIR, it means they may have to trade someone away to pay Pinto more, which cancels out the idea that Pinto is a rental because they would lose a roster player to acquire him.

The above is moot if they are a basement team or a top team. In either of those situations, he would have a lot less leverage. He needs the Senators to be fighting for a playoff spot, but not comfortable.

 

[DrEasy]

The only way he has leverage is if the Senators are fighting for a playoff spot, and a player going on LTIR gives them an excess of cap space to use on Pinto beyond what they would get just by sending down a player.

The Senators may lose a draft pick because of the Dadonov fiasco. They are already low on picks if you look at the amount of past and future picks they have traded. So long as whatever Pinto gets on a 1 year deal this year is equal to or less than what the Senators think he will get on his next contract (re: qualifying offer), Pinto could force their hand to get a higher 1 year deal if they have the ability to do it due to LTIR.

For example, if they really think he deserves 1 year 1M, but they have the ability due to a player being on LTIR to pay him 1.5M, and they are fighting tooth and nail for a playoff spot, are they really going to turn down the shot at getting a free rental over a difference of 500k in space, which in this scenario where they don't want to burn a 1st or 2nd on a big rental, they won't use elsewhere anyways?

Without someone being on LTIR, it means they may have to trade someone away to pay Pinto more, which cancels out the idea that Pinto is a rental because they would lose a roster player to acquire him.

The above is moot if they are a basement team or a top team. In either of those situations, he would have a lot less leverage. He needs the Senators to be fighting for a playoff spot, but not comfortable.

Previous to Pinto's suspension, the fear was to lose one year's worth of contribution by Pinto to the team (the cap issues disappear after that, or at least until Dorion creates new ones, but I digress); now with the suspension the fear/potential loss is cut in half. When Pinto's suspension is over, if there's still no room to fit him under the cap (assuming because Pinto's side is playing hardball) it would be because the team has nobody on LTIR till the end of the year. That's not such an awful position to be in.

 

[JD1]

Sounds like a factless rant vs a serious critique


More of the same "crap" to use your words. Perhaps you should stick to reading people that agree with your views. Garrioch would seem to fit that.

Seems to me that Nichols never figuring out how to make a living as a sports writer is a fact.

Speaking of people that agree with one's views, it's really no surprise that you like his stuff.

 

[JD1]

You are twisting his words to fit your narrative and interpretation of the chain of events or you have a reading comprehension issue which based on many of your other rebuttals/responses I won't discard.

Ok then.

How about you lay out a scenario that makes sense out of "missing games of development"

My narrative is that with this hanging over his head, the rush to sign him was gone. And that if he signed, we needed to move people. And had we moved people to sign him, then lost him due to suspension we'd have to endure his bitching about that. And yours.

 

[JD1]

Signing him without knowledge of the investigation is a faultless offense. Bad luck but not on Dorion.

Signing him after the league told them not to and to cease negotiations would indeed have been stupid as hell.

And it seems the league informed the team prior to camp. That's the consensus right?

So what other interpretation is there other than they weren't trying to sign him thru camp? They were just keeping it quiet but had to address the media imo.

 

[Puikiou]

Does anyone have a clip of the Garrioch intermission segment?

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Ok then.

How about you lay out a scenario that makes sense out of "missing games of development"

My narrative is that with this hanging over his head, the rush to sign him was gone. And that if he signed, we needed to move people. And had we moved people to sign him, then lost him due to suspension we'd have to endure his bitching about that. And yours.

What exactly do you think you read in that nichols post?

 

[Mingus Dew]

And it seems the league informed the team prior to camp. That's the consensus right?

So what other interpretation is there other than they weren't trying to sign him thru camp? They were just keeping it quiet but had to address the media imo.

Yeah I’m not disagreeing and I didn’t read the Nichols post. I don’t think anyone is holding this against Dorion now that we have all the information.

 

[Micklebot]

How about you lay out a scenario that makes sense out of "missing games of development"

My narrative is that with this hanging over his head, the rush to sign him was gone. And that if he signed, we needed to move people. And had we moved people to sign him, then lost him due to suspension we'd have to endure his bitching about that. And yours.

I think Nichols was being presumptuous that a trade to open up space for Pinto wasn't going to be made prior to opening night if not for the league informing them of the investigation and they wouldn't get him signed but the crux of his point was the suspension doesn't absolve Dorion of putting the team in a position where you have to trade assets at a loss to make room for a player or see them miss time.

there is valid criticism to be made around how Dorion managed his roster and cap space this offseason, We signed 9mil in UFA before clearing the space needed to sign the guys we had. We waited until other team's rosters were mostly set in stone and they had limited to no cap space before presumably trying to unload a 2.5 to 3 mil contract to them, this is what is being cricized, not the hypothetical outcome in a parallel world where Pinto isn't suspended. Was he right about the potential ramifications of how Dorion managed his roster, maybe not, but the criticism was always about the management of the cap and roster, not the hypothetical outcome.


So in the end, he may have gotten the "so what" wrong, maybe the only ramifications of Dorions cap management are that we have to pay assets to dump a contract. Or maybe Pinto would have only missed part of camp and never any games. But the point was the criticisms are still as valid after the suspension as they were before it. The suspension affords Dorion more time to resolve the cap space conundrum, it doesn't remove it.

 

[Micklebot]

And it seems the league informed the team prior to camp. That's the consensus right?

So what other interpretation is there other than they weren't trying to sign him thru camp? They were just keeping it quiet but had to address the media imo.

All I saw was the sens were informed close to the start of camp, which could be before or after. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen it narrowed down more than that. The investigation however did start earlier in the summer.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I think Nichols was being presumptuous that a trade to open up space for Pinto wasn't going to be made prior to opening night if not for the league informing them of the investigation and they wouldn't get him signed but the crux of his point was the suspension doesn't absolve Dorion of putting the team in a position where you have to trade assets at a loss to make room for a player or see them miss time.

there is valid criticism to be made around how Dorion managed his roster and cap space this offseason, We signed 9mil in UFA before clearing the space needed to sign the guys we had. We waited until other team's rosters were mostly set in stone and they had limited to no cap space before presumably trying to unload a 2.5 to 3 mil contract to them, this is what is being cricized, not the hypothetical outcome in a parallel world where Pinto isn't suspended. Was he right about the potential ramifications of how Dorion managed his roster, maybe not, but the criticism was always about the management of the cap and roster, not the hypothetical outcome.


So in the end, he may have gotten the "so what" wrong, maybe the only ramifications of Dorions cap management are that we have to pay assets to dump a contract. Or maybe Pinto would have only missed part of camp and never any games. But the point was the criticisms are still as valid after the suspension as they were before it. The suspension affords Dorion more time to resolve the cap space conundrum, it doesn't remove it.

Except we don’t know that we would have had to move anyone to make space because we don’t know what Pinto actually was asking for.

We also don’t know if a trade was lined up, or what that may have looked like. We don’t know if Dorion was prepared to solve the situation before camp but simply didn’t have to in the end.

We do know that the team knew about it before camp, and possibly earlier than that given the investigation started in the summer.

In the end the situation becomes moot. Given what we do know and what we don’t know, there aren’t many conclusions that can be drawn about coulda woulda shouldas.

The problem with this guy is he does what some posters in here like to do which is to take a situation that wasn’t actually negative in term of the team, and actually a positive for the team in terms of how they dealt with Pinto, and try and insist that it is still a negative because they have already double and triple downed on the anger.

Some folks can’t just accept that they were wrong, which given how little information we actually have as fans should actually be second nature.

He appeals to fans who hate the current management at all costs.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Mendes

What's next for Shane Pinto, Pierre Dorion and Senators after gambling suspension?

Pinto has lost some leverage, but if Dorion manages to cut down Pinto's contract, it won't be the result of shrewd negotiating tactics.

theathletic.com

Dorion is a polarizing figure in Ottawa, and it isn’t surprising that his handling of the Pinto situation can be viewed through two vastly different prisms.

The first is that Dorion still deserves criticism for not locking up Pinto to a contract this summer — well before the news of his potential suspension came onto the radar. Dorion is still in the same predicament as he was before, with a roster that is at the salary-cap ceiling despite not having a young, team-controlled center under contract. Dorion prioritized signings of Vladimir Tarasenko, Joonas Korpisalo, Erik Brannstrom, Travis Hamonic and Zack MacEwen ahead of Pinto. He brought in $2.5 million of Kubalik for the 2023-24 season before he had anything with Pinto locked down.

Ottawa is still wearing salary-cap handcuffs — a situation that has nothing to do with Pinto’s gambling suspension. Dorion has been given some time, but he hasn’t created any extra salary-cap room. He shouldn’t be doing any victory laps for unexpectedly inheriting a peculiar situation that came out of left field.

Now, the flip side is that Dorion probably feels like he’s in a position of power in the contract negotiations with Pinto’s camp. Pinto has lost some leverage, since the most he can do is play half a season for Ottawa in 2023-24. And there is the school of thought that Pinto’s camp might appreciate the discretion shown by Ottawa management around this story, so maybe everybody will play a little nicer in the sandbox.

But if Dorion manages to cut down Pinto’s contract, the only reason he stumbled into that potentially advantageous situation is by sheer luck. This wasn’t the result of shrewd negotiating tactics.

Whenever Pinto comes back into the mix — whether that’s in late January or beyond — Dorion will need to create salary-cap room. As of Thursday, the Senators had just under $50,000 in salary cap space, according to CapFriendly. Thanks to an injury to Artem Zub, the Senators travelled to New York with the bare minimum 18 skaters and two goalies. They have no wiggle room.

 

[Micklebot]

Except we don’t know that we would have had to move anyone to make space because we don’t know what Pinto actually was asking for.

We also don’t know if a trade was lined up, or what that may have looked like. We don’t know if Dorion was prepared to solve the situation before camp but simply didn’t have to in the end.

We do know that the team knew about it before camp, and possibly earlier than that given the investigation started in the summer.

In the end the situation becomes moot. Given what we do know and what we don’t know, there aren’t many conclusions that can be drawn about coulda woulda shouldas.

The problem with this guy is he does what some posters in here like to do which is to take a situation that wasn’t actually negative in term of the team, and actually a positive for the team in terms of how they dealt with Pinto, and try and insist that it is still a negative because they have already double and triple downed on the anger.

Some folks can’t just accept that they were wrong, which given how little information we actually have as fans should actually be second nature.

He appeals to fans who hate the current management at all costs.

Well you're right,

We don't know what Pinto wanted, we only have insiders like Friedman saying he started by asking for 2.5

We don't know what move was to be made, we only had the speculation from insiders that it was going to be steep. I think it was Garrioch during one intermission saying flyers wanted Greig, prior to that it was apparently a 1st or Boucher

Im not sure we actually know when the sens were informed, my understanding was close to the start of camp, but we have insiders like Freidman talking about the offers right up to and into camp, so if the reporting that the Sens were informed to rescind all offers when they were advised of the investigation is true, then it suggests we didn't know early in the summer.

I don't think the situation becomes moot, I think we all agree that the team is evaluating Dorion and whether they'll be keeping him on going forward or replacing him. It only seems logical that his handling of the situation is relevant in that decision regardless of whether the suspension saved him from himself, or whether he handled the situation as best as possible given the circumstances.

It interesting that you claim Nichols views everything from the same lens, I don't necessarily disagree, but you're doing the same, viewing things from the opposite lens. Nothing wrong with different perspectives. Nichols makes some good points, and some bad ones. In fact, his point that the suspension doesn't change the fact that Dorion put himself in a tight position wrt the cap is one that Mendes also made, but Mendes doesn't get hated on for making that same point.

I will agree that Nichols appeals to fans that are unhappy with management, I think the appeal is a bit broader than that and includes those looking for diverse perspectives instead of just seeking out one side of the story, but he certainly won't appeal to those who are only seeking sunshine and rainbows.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Well you're right,

We don't know what Pinto wanted, we only have insiders like Friedman saying he started by asking for 2.5

We don't know what move was to be made, we only had the speculation from insiders that it was going to be steep. I think it was Garrioch during one intermission saying flyers wanted Greig, prior to that it was apparently a 1st or Boucher

Im not sure we actually know when the sens were informed, my understanding was close to the start of camp, but we have insiders like Freidman talking about the offers right up to and into camp, so if the reporting that the Sens were informed to rescind all offers when they were advised of the investigation is true, then it suggests we didn't know early in the summer.

I don't think the situation becomes moot, I think we all agree that the team is evaluating Dorion and whether they'll be keeping him on going forward or replacing him. It only seems logical that his handling of the situation is relevant in that decision regardless of whether the suspension saved him from himself, or whether he handled the situation as best as possible given the circumstances.

It interesting that you claim Nichols views everything from the same lens, I don't necessarily disagree, but you're doing the same, viewing things from the opposite lens. Nothing wrong with different perspectives. Nichols makes some good points, and some bad ones. In fact, his point that the suspension doesn't change the fact that Dorion put himself in a tight position wrt the cap is one that Mendes also made, but Mendes doesn't get hated on for making that same point.

I will agree that Nichols appeals to fans that are unhappy with management, I think the appeal is a bit broader than that and includes those looking for diverse perspectives instead of just seeking out one side of the story, but he certainly won't appeal to those who are only seeking sunshine and rainbows.

He's criticizing a hypothetical situation. No one knows what a) Pinto's contract was going to be, b) what it was going to take to offload salary to make room for him under the cap and c) when the salary was going to be offloaded. All the rest of the criticism is circumstantial because we never actually got to the point where we could evaluate the work done to create cap flexibility to sign Pinto.

Before they were told the NHL was investigating this gambling thing, they could have had a good trade lined up during training camp, Pinto would have been signed at $2.25M x 1 year and he would have never missed a regular season game. It's easy to imagine hypotheticals and evaluate them because no one knows what the alternative history would have been.

Criticizing cap management when you can't get to the original end point of the cap issue is asinine.

 

[Micklebot]

He's criticizing a hypothetical situation. No one knows what a) Pinto's contract was going to be, b) what it was going to take to offload salary to make room for him under the cap and c) when the salary was going to be offloaded. All the rest of the criticism is circumstantial because we never actually got to the point where we could evaluate the work done to create cap flexibility to sign Pinto.

Before they were told the NHL was investigating this gambling thing, they could have had a good trade lined up during training camp, Pinto would have been signed at $2.25M x 1 year and he would have never missed a regular season game. It's easy to imagine hypotheticals and evaluate them because no one knows what the alternative history would have been.

Criticizing cap management when you can't get to the original end point of the cap issue is asinine.

He's hardly the only one, most of the media was criticizing how the sense had managed their cap going into camp given Pinto was unsigned.

His point was the pressure from how Dorion managed the cap still exists, it's been pushed down the road, but the root cause is still there.

If discussing hypotheticals around a sports team is asinine to you, this might not be the site for you.

 

[Big Muddy]

He's criticizing a hypothetical situation. No one knows what a) Pinto's contract was going to be, b) what it was going to take to offload salary to make room for him under the cap and c) when the salary was going to be offloaded. All the rest of the criticism is circumstantial because we never actually got to the point where we could evaluate the work done to create cap flexibility to sign Pinto.

Before they were told the NHL was investigating this gambling thing, they could have had a good trade lined up during training camp, Pinto would have been signed at $2.25M x 1 year and he would have never missed a regular season game. It's easy to imagine hypotheticals and evaluate them because no one knows what the alternative history would have been.

Criticizing cap management when you can't get to the original end point of the cap issue is asinine.

Besides getting super focused on the Pinto thing, you still have to look at the big picture. There's still the question of whether the other trades that were made were done prior to getting the Pinto situation resolved.

If the priority was Pinto, you'd think that would be done first before other moves were made. Tarasenko was signed on July 27th. Seems like there was enough time to get Pinto done before locking down other trades.

 

[BankStreetParade]

He's hardly the only one, most of the media was criticizing how the sense had managed their cap going into camp given Pinto was unsigned.

His point was the pressure from how Dorion managed the cap still exists, it's been pushed down the road, but the root cause is still there.

If discussing hypotheticals around a sports team is asinine to you, this might not be the site for you.

And, again, we don't know what the natural resolution to the issue would have been because we never got there. Discussing hypotheticals is fine, criticizing a very narrow set of hypotheticals is not discussion. It's rage bait for the same people who keep posting his shit on this site and expecting thoughtful and engaging discussion to break out around it. It's not the intent of the subject matter.

 

[Micklebot]

And, again, we don't know what the natural resolution to the issue would have been because we never got there. Discussing hypotheticals is fine, criticizing a very narrow set of hypotheticals is not discussion. It's rage bait for the same people who keep posting his shit on this site and expecting thoughtful and engaging discussion to break out around it. It's not the intent of the subject matter.

The criticism is to the root cause of the situation, he put us in a bind. The end result is yet to be determined, does that mean there is no valid way to criticize him for his actions up until then?

Like I said, Nichols is hardly the only person who criticized Dorion wrt the handling of the situation. Mainstream media did as well. It was apparent that we didn't have a lot of leverage when it came to making space for Pinto, and that leverage got smaller and smaller the longer things dragged on.

This is the nature of sports coverage.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Besides getting super focused on the Pinto thing, you still have to look at the big picture. There's still the question of whether the other trades that were made were done prior to getting the Pinto situation resolved.

If the priority was Pinto, you'd think that would be done first before other moves were made. Tarasenko was signed on July 27th. Seems like there was enough time to get Pinto done before locking down other trades.

A player can be a priority to a team without coalescing to every demand they make, right? So in your interpretation, should all other business stop because the team has a player whose contract demands, despite little bargaining power, are not in line with theirs?