Shanahan's biggest gaffe shows he's out of touch: revisiting the "Discounts" quote

[socko]

That's genius.

Dubius.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Shanahan failed to create a culture where players wanted to play.

All of the big 4 were overpaid to stay.

Whether Marner got mad at Babcock or not, you just don't sign Marner or anyone for that money as it's money down the tubes.

Shanny must go.

 

[Stephen]

Apparently Brendan Shanahan at some point in this process thought turning his players into exalted individual identities outside of being Toronto Maple Leafs was a really really bad idea. What happened?

They’ve switched gears on that pretty much. I don’t think they’re hyping up the next crop and building celebrities out of them.

 

[HolyCrap]

You don't pay that much for a UFA when the rest of your team is shaky.

UFAs are too expensive

I don’t disagree. Especially the high end expensive ones. Money can be spent better elsewhere.

 

[hotpaws]

You don't pay that much for a UFA when the rest of your team is shaky.

UFAs are too expensive

i agree and you don't pay that much for a ufa when you're not filling a glaring need

 

[HamiltonNHL]

to trade out guys like Thornton, Kessel, Seguin and Hamilton who weren’t the right fit from a money or culture

The return was probably good.

 

[hamzarocks]

You genuinely think the Leafs' core is 7 mill overpaid combined... Some people seriously need a reality check.

Its closer to 5M at the term which they are at

Nylander is should have gotten 7 million at 8 years

Marner should have gotten 9.25 at 8 years

Tavares should have gotten 10 at 7 years

Matthews should have gotten 11M at 8 years

caphit wise it's maybe 2-2.5M but we seriously lowered our contention window and ability to integrate potential prospects like (amirov, Robertson, sandin, lilijgren, niemela, hirvonen, hallinder, abramov etc.) onto the team at a steady rate.

The first four won't be huge impact players next year and will be at that level in 2022-2023 at best. The next 4 we are looking closer to 2024 before they are valuable NHL players

Dubas giving less than full-term contracts at above UFA rates put huge pressure on him to obtain results quickly. He is selling and will continue to sell young assets this upcoming season to try and obtain some results as the players have failed to deliver 3 years after he came and he has only 3 years at best (if we either win a round at least or MLSE blindly gives him that time) until we are on the clock and in for a world of pain with Nylander + Matthews becoming UFA's.

Dubas should not have paid Matthews like he was a top 3 player in the world during his contract when he still 2 years after the fact isn't at that level.

Marner shouldn't have been paid as a generational game-breaking winger

Nylander should not have gotten 7M after 2 months of throwing away his season.

 

[Superstar]

The biggest disappointment about those 3 RFA contracts is that they aren't even fair market values, let alone discounts...they are significant overpayments.

 

[rumman]

bang on , our core isn't overpaid , it's just that everyone's else's core is underpaid , lol

NHLPA man of the year once again........Kyle Dubas........

 

[rumman]

A team like the Bruins have established a very strong organizational culture but it did come at a very high and painful price from a personnel point of view. You have to draft well and develop well to be able to trade out guys like Thornton, Kessel, Seguin and Hamilton who weren’t the right fit from a money or culture point of view. But the guys who do stick around will go through a wall for you.

Bruins are masters at "fish or cut bait" on players. If your a Diva, your gone..........

 

[egd27]

You don't pay that much for a UFA when the rest of your team is shaky.

UFAs are too expensive

You don't hand out the second highest cap hit in the entire league (at the time) for player that will be on the second line.

Seems quite obvious.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

You don't hand out the second highest cap hit in the entire league (the the time) for player that will be on the second line.

Seems quite obvious.

Well said.

 

[Antropovsky]

You don't pay that much for a UFA when the rest of your team is shaky.

UFAs are too expensive

Scoring chance generating plays in Tavares first year as a leaf:

1) McDavid
2) Crosby
3) Matthews
12) Tavares
22) Nylander
26) Marner

Tavares is fine... Marner is the problem. The right move, in hindsight of course, was to trade Marner for a boatload of assets. That year Marner had 94 point he was 26 in scoring chance generating plays, the same year Aho was 12th. Aho got 8.454 while Marner got 10.893.

Sure Aho produced around 10 points less than Marner but I've pointed it out millions of times Carolina scored like 40 goals less than Toronto and allowed like the same amount less.

Tavares "actually" turned down more money to play in Toronto... Marners agent said he received one offersheet and was in talks with a different team about a contract too. Why wasn't it released that Marner took less to stay in Toronto? Because he didn't... nobody offered him more than his own GM did.

I'd like Toronto to take the Boston route... trade skill and build a culture unfortunately it looks like that ship may have passed and wed have to start all over or else trade Nylander and Marner.

Nylander ... oh yea can you believe he released to the media that Dubas promised him he wouldn't trade him. Yet another example of Dubas being disrespected and walked on by the young guys.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Why wasn't it released that Marner took less to stay in Toronto? Because he didn't... nobody offered him more than his own GM / friend did.

FTFY.

 

[horner]

He’s not wrong. Now that the 4 forwards chew up a large share of the cap, everyone else will have to take discounts.

Taveras
When they signed him before dealing with Mathews and Marner it screwd up everything.
JT was a good player for around 9 mil.
I really think they jumped the gun on the process.

Mathews and Marner both said well if JT is worth we are just as good .

They had dubas under the gun and he gave the farm to both Mathews and Marner.

Obviously money is more important to Mathews and Marner than building a team .

Again what was marleau teaching this young players how to be gready , I never thought he was that great of a player or a leader .
And to boot we had to give up a 1st to get rid of him .

What a stupid organization.

 

[baton elevated]

A team like the Bruins have established a very strong organizational culture but it did come at a very high and painful price from a personnel point of view. You have to draft well and develop well to be able to trade out guys like Thornton, Kessel, Seguin and Hamilton who weren’t the right fit from a money or culture point of view. But the guys who do stick around will go through a wall for you.

I've been saying that for years

 

[Antropovsky]

FTFY.

Ive enjoyed the interviews where Marner talks about how great and smart of a gm Dubas is.... Marners tone is like he is Dubas' boss. Guess he's trying to make Dubas feel better about his agent taking advantage of him.

 

[613Leafer]

Lmao matthews is not providing surplus value.

3rd highest cap hit with the shortest term of anyone in the top ~25.

He's overpaid by at least 1 mil when taking term into account.

You also have to keep in mind what he had accomplished by the time he signed his contract - zero top 10 finishes in points by age 21. McDavid got his contract after winning the Hart and Art Ross as a teenager.

At 5 years? Matthews should be at most 9.5M, and that's generously interpreting his stats in a favourable light. It's higher than the Kane/Toews contracts post-ELC (after accounting for cap growth) and about equal to Stamkos who won a Rocket Richard and had back-to-back top 5 finishes in points during his ELC.

At 8 years, I still don't know if he gets to 11.6M. McDavid was head and shoulders and then some above Matthews at the same age and comparing ELC performances.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

I really think they jumped the gun on the process.

Speculation: - Leafs rushed the rebuild

Yep.

 

[Antropovsky]

Taveras
When they signed him before dealing with Mathews and Marner it screwd up everything.
JT was a good player for around 9 mil.
I really think they jumped the gun on the process.

Mathews and Marner both said well if JT is worth we are just as good .

They had dubas under the gun and he gave the farm to both Mathews and Marner.

Obviously money is more important to Mathews and Marner than building a team .

Again what was marleau teaching this young players how to be gready , I never thought he was that great of a player or a leader .
And to boot we had to give up a 1st to get rid of him .

What a stupid organization.

Matthews is top 5 in the league... maybe as good as #2. Look at his stats... he scores no matter who his linemates are. When Marner was with Hyman and Tavares and Nylander was holding out... Matthews still was on a 94 point pace. He's 6'2 and plays center... oh and the best goal scorer in the entire NHL. You pay him the 11.6 no questions asked. Tavares... you do any day of the week at 11 million... he was a UFA, only 27, a #1 center and very coachable.

Marner and Nylander you put them in there place.... and trade them if need be. Both are wingers and would have gotten top assets in return and could have been someone else's headache. Instead Nylander gets a verbal "I won't trade you as long as I'm gm" and Marner gets overpaid and an assistant captain letter slapped on his chest for his troubles.

Damn Dubas.... damn.

 

[Trapper]

Signing Tavares was fine.
Making Matthews the franchise guy would have been fine if it was for 8 years.He might just be someone else’s franchise guy in 3 years a la JT.

You don’t sign 2 wingers for almost 20 million after that.
2 5/6 million wingers are fine.

Nylander 6.9 and a 6 mil guy who can drive the net, get dirty and score some goals.

And the money for an entire 3rd line that can go the same.

 

[horner]

Matthews is top 5 in the league... maybe as good as #2. Look at his stats... he scores no matter who his linemates are. When Marner was with Hyman and Tavares and Nylander was holding out... Matthews still was on a 94 point pace. He's 6'2 and plays center... oh and the best goal scorer in the entire NHL. You pay him the 11.6 no questions asked. Tavares... you do any day of the week at 11 million... he was a UFA, only 27, a #1 center and very coachable.

Marner and Nylander you put them in there place.... and trade them if need be. Both are wingers and would have gotten top assets in return and could have been someone else's headache. Instead Nylander gets a verbal "I won't trade you as long as I'm gm" and Marner gets overpaid and an assistant captain letter slapped on his chest for his troubles.

Damn Dubas.... damn.

At the timof the signing he had been injured 2 seasons in a row .

All iam saying is that management got all giddy and jumped the gun by signing Taveras.

Hell we didn't even have a good defence at that time .

Now we are stuck with JT we are a mediocre team that hasn't won a round in the playoffs and will have to trade one of our young stars to build a team .

Again great Shanahan.

 

[horner]

Matthews is top 5 in the league... maybe as good as #2. Look at his stats... he scores no matter who his linemates are. When Marner was with Hyman and Tavares and Nylander was holding out... Matthews still was on a 94 point pace. He's 6'2 and plays center... oh and the best goal scorer in the entire NHL. You pay him the 11.6 no questions asked. Tavares... you do any day of the week at 11 million... he was a UFA, only 27, a #1 center and very coachable.

Marner and Nylander you put them in there place.... and trade them if need be. Both are wingers and would have gotten top assets in return and could have been someone else's headache. Instead Nylander gets a verbal "I won't trade you as long as I'm gm" and Marner gets overpaid and an assistant captain letter slapped on his chest for his troubles.

Damn Dubas.... damn.

Taveras was the wrong signing at the time period.

 

[Kurtz]

In terms of cap hits:

- JT signed for less here than what SJ and NYI offered - so no overpayment there.
- Matthews had all the leverage as he was going to get big RFA offers from Arizona and other American teams. Still maybe a slight overpayment given what Eichel and McDavid got.
- Marner signed at the same time as Rantanen, for $1.5 more. Clear overpayment.
- Willy signed a fair deal but Dubas set a bad precedent for making him whole with the bonus structure - ensuring that Willy didn't lose any money for sitting out. That was weak.

Overall, maybe $3 mil overpayment for the core 4, in my opinion.

 

[Antropovsky]

Taveras was the wrong signing at the time period.

Yup 47 goal 88 point 28 year old center for free (but cap space) is the wrong move.