TV: Severance - Apple TV

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It's hard to imagine where they go in S3 that makes sense, but I said the same thing after S1 and they seemed to have made it work. Agree with everyone else re: the common criticisms of this season.

Glad to hear they have things mapped out to an extent. Though as much as I love the show I somewhat hope they don't go past 3 seasons, 4 max. I feel like eventually you reach a point where quality can dip in service to manufacturing plot.
Unbelievable thrill ride of an episode and a surprising amount of humor for such a high stakes episode.
Regarding your 3rd and last paragraphs...
creepy guy on the bottom floor already hints at this strongly with "you'll kill them all."
It seems like the show is at least honest enough that a lot of peeps were able to accurately predict the reveals of the season, so things are all done with intention (hell, even in S1, the goat guy's comment alludes to what we figured and now know was a sacrafice). Obviously that does seem too on the nose, to an extent, in terms of a harbinger, but I wouldn't at all be surprised with the endgame for this show being, uh, not exactly happy.
 
one issue i had with the episode, and i've expressed this to @HanSolo separately - At no point in the show do they mention that severed employees aren't uniformly severed. Why didn't Mark change when he went into the Cold Harbor room? it seems as though if there's certain rooms you'd be programmed to, the Birthing Retreat room wouldn't be one of them. In fact, the last person who would be programmed to change in the birthing retreat would be a man who works on the severed floor. Unless i missed something, it feels like a bit of a plot hole.
 
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one issue i had with the episode, and i've expressed this to @HanSolo separately - At no point in the show do they mention that severed employees aren't uniformly severed. Why didn't Mark change when he went into the Cold Harbor room? it seems as though if there's certain rooms you'd be programmed to, the Birthing Retreat room wouldn't be one of them. In fact, the last person who would be programmed to change in the birthing retreat would be a man who works on the severed floor. Unless i missed something, it feels like a bit of a plot hole.
I think it can be rationalized that there's just a general Severance chip, and Gemma has an experimental one that activates differently in all the different rooms. That's why she doesn't change into Miss Casey when leaving the Cold Harbor room - that base level of Severance from Mark S and Miss Casey only kicks in on the Severed floor, and presumably the birthing retreat has that same level of Severed access. But these are things the show should show the audience, rather than leave up to the imagination of the viewers to fill in.

Still a great finale though. I do really wonder which version of Helly / Helena was in the hallway at the end. It really seemed like Helly... But that slight smirk she gave to Gemma is making me doubt everything.

Also, Mark S was a total hero this episode. He got his ass kicked to save a woman he doesn't even really know, literally risked life and limb, and when he had a chance for a clean escape to experience reintegrated life he refused to take it so he could try and rescue the woman he loves as well as liberate his fellow innies. Narratively I see why fans are mad at him, but he did everything right based on his own intuitions and motivations.

That, and Cold Harbor wasn't able to prevent the blank slate Gemma from trusting her husband, but Severed Mark still wanted to go his own way rather than be with his outie's wife to be with the woman he, Innie Mark, loves. In both cases love found a way. Fantastic writing and storytelling.
 
Just started watching the finale and I can’t believe I never noticed this before but Adam Scott bears an amazing resemblance to a young Alan Alda. He even sounds a bit like him.
I noticed the same thing, but mostly when watching Outie Mark, who's unshaven and more casual than suit-and-tie Innie Mark. Adam Scott looks like a more compact, less handsome version of Alda.

1742653273198.png
 
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It's hard to imagine where they go in S3 that makes sense, but I said the same thing after S1 and they seemed to have made it work. Agree with everyone else re: the common criticisms of this season.

Glad to hear they have things mapped out to an extent. Though as much as I love the show I somewhat hope they don't go past 3 seasons, 4 max. I feel like eventually you reach a point where quality can dip in service to manufacturing plot.

Regarding your 3rd and last paragraphs...
creepy guy on the bottom floor already hints at this strongly with "you'll kill them all."
It seems like the show is at least honest enough that a lot of peeps were able to accurately predict the reveals of the season, so things are all done with intention (hell, even in S1, the goat guy's comment alludes to what we figured and now know was a sacrafice). Obviously that does seem too on the nose, to an extent, in terms of a harbinger, but I wouldn't at all be surprised with the endgame for this show being, uh, not exactly happy.
So

I think what Dr. Mauer meant was leaving would mean killing all 25, 26 if you count Ms. Casey, of Gemma's innies. In a weird way Dr. Mauer was like those innies' father but also like...wanted to find love with at least one of them?

I'm going to kind of continue the conversation @Sombastate and I were having by elaborating on my thinking. My interpretation of the way the testing floor worked is there's a difference between the Severance doors on the testing floor and those on the severed floor/birthing cabin. I think each of the doors MDR helped prepare are specifically and separately coded to unlock a part of Gemma's chip for a different innie that can only exist on the testing floor. Like if Gemma went into the birthing cabin from the finale, she would revert to Ms. Casey, not one of her 25 other innies (or all of them at once which would probably overload her brain and kill her). To put it a different way, I think innies like Ms. Casey, Mark S., Helly, etc. are what could be considered generation 1 innies, while Gemma's innies are generation 2, and generation 2 is still in the development stage and can only exist on the testing floor. I think that's what Dr. Mauer means. If they take Gemma from the testing floor and she never returns, all those innies effectively die.


From there, whether the end goal was having Gemma's testing floor innies replicated for the anti pain/trauma/discomfort Severance chip the show was implying was the purpose of the experiments so those innies could serve as generic blank slates to be be the ones to endure the pain and suffering of the general public, I don't know. Part of me thinks that's implausible since an innie is still a construct of an individual's own psychological wiring. I would think that overwriting 25 versions of another person into a different person's brain would result in psychological chaos if not driving people to sheer insanity. But I don't know how else we were supposed to interpret Dr. Mauer telling Gemma that "you will see the world again and the world will see you"

But the point may be moot if they can't get Gemma and her chip back.

In any case, maybe there's a double meaning and he's thinking long term that if Gemma and her story are leveraged to destroy Lumon, it would mean the end of the lives of the innies, the way i!Mark speculated. The thing is, we have two seasons of this show not quite being Game of Thrones, as in, while bad things happen to these characters it's never quite as tragic as the worst possible outcome (e.g. Ned's death, the Red Wedding, Tyrion losing trial by combat, etc.)

I think bad things are still to come for the innies and outies and there will be continued struggle and conflict with Lumon, but I feel like Lumon mass wiping the innies is a bit too dark an outcome for this show. Maybe it happens as the season 3 big finale moment, but my expectation is that the eventual compromise solution is that the good guys will find a way to reintegrate everyone who severed. In a way, that's a loss for the innies because they lose their unique and separate identities and autonomy over their separate lives. But if an innie decides to live in perpetuity as their innie selves, then that just kills their outies and I can't see this show taking the moral stance that outies deserve to die as penance for creating the innies in the first place. Reintegration was introduced as a concept for a reason and I think that's the endgame. Convincing innies and outies alike that Severed existence is not feasible and that they should reintegrate to make their two halves whole.
 
I think it can be rationalized that there's just a general Severance chip, and Gemma has an experimental one that activates differently in all the different rooms. That's why she doesn't change into Miss Casey when leaving the Cold Harbor room - that base level of Severance from Mark S and Miss Casey only kicks in on the Severed floor, and presumably the birthing retreat has that same level of Severed access. But these are things the show should show the audience, rather than leave up to the imagination of the viewers to fill in.

Still a great finale though. I do really wonder which version of Helly / Helena was in the hallway at the end. It really seemed like Helly... But that slight smirk she gave to Gemma is making me doubt everything.

Also, Mark S was a total hero this episode. He got his ass kicked to save a woman he doesn't even really know, literally risked life and limb, and when he had a chance for a clean escape to experience reintegrated life he refused to take it so he could try and rescue the woman he loves as well as liberate his fellow innies. Narratively I see why fans are mad at him, but he did everything right based on his own intuitions and motivations.

That, and Cold Harbor wasn't able to prevent the blank slate Gemma from trusting her husband, but Severed Mark still wanted to go his own way rather than be with his outie's wife to be with the woman he, Innie Mark, loves. In both cases love found a way. Fantastic writing and storytelling.
I didn't see a smirk on first watch and after checking it right now, I still don't see a smirk. She's pretty expressionless and on the next shot, while running, looks back worried.
 
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I didn't see a smirk on first watch and after checking it right now, I still don't see a smirk. She's pretty expressionless and on the next shot, while running, looks back worried.
Yeah I think that was much ado about nothing.

The only thing I've seen that gives the theory any credence whatsoever is the catch that the elevator tone was different when Helly/Helena came back to the severed floor to join Mark. I rewatched the episode and it's true. It's not the same tone that plays when it's showing an outie to an innie. That's the only reason I'll keep my mind open to a reveal that it was Helena with Mark all along, that and we really didn't see what Helena was up to between the scene between Helly and Jame and her joining Mark for the completion of Cold Harbor.

But I'd agree that "the look" that made this theory catch fire stemmed from people thinking it was a smirk. If you look really closely it looks like Helly or Helena looks sad for Gemma. Not sad enough to try to force Mark to go to her, but a look of recognition for the loss Gemma is about to experience.

Britt Lower weighed in on the subject and if any of you feel like getting actor insight, an interview is out there.

Either way, people really thought they cooked with "HELLY WAS NEVER CRUEL OMG" and misread the facial expression.
 
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Yeah I think that was much ado about nothing.

The only thing I've seen that gives the theory any credence whatsoever is the catch that the elevator tone was different when Helly/Helena came back to the severed floor to join Mark. I rewatched the episode and it's true. It's not the same tone that plays when it's showing an outie to an innie. That's the only reason I'll keep my mind open to a reveal that it was Helena with Mark all along, that and we really didn't see what Helena was up to between the scene between Helly and Jame and her joining Mark for the completion of Cold Harbor.

But I'd agree that "the look" that made this theory catch fire stemmed from people thinking it was a smirk. If you look really closely it looks like Helly or Helena looks sad for Gemma. Not sad enough to try to force Mark to go to her, but a look of recognition for the loss Gemma is about to experience.

Britt Lower weighed in on the subject and if any of you feel like getting actor insight, an interview is out there.

Either way, people really thought they cooked with "HELLY WAS NEVER CRUEL OMG" and misread the facial expression.
I'm not 100% sure on this but I feel Helena and Helly walked differently too. Helly has a very masculine type of "f*** this all" type of walk and I don't think Helena could replicate it . Granted she was mostly seen pretending to be Helly in the outdoors episode where we didn't see her "indoor walk". It was definitely Helly that Jame Eagan talked to the previous night.
 
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One other thing I really appreciated was the juxtaposition between the two Marks interacting and the two Dylans interacting. Mark Scout started off with an apology to Innie Mark, which I do think was sincere, but he missed the mark (sorry) when it was clear he just wanted Mark S to do what he wanted, without really considering Mark S's agency.

Outie Dylan opened up with a literal F U to his Innie, but then became very thoughtful and clearly considered his innies' motivations and wants - and that was after being painted in a relative negative light all season. He may have actually given Innie Dylan his first sense of agency in literally his whole severed life.

Really outstanding characterization, and I'm so impressed by the writers' and the actors' ability to portray these characters with separate personas. Complete prestige television.
 
So

I think what Dr. Mauer meant was leaving would mean killing all 25, 26 if you count Ms. Casey, of Gemma's innies. In a weird way Dr. Mauer was like those innies' father but also like...wanted to find love with at least one of them?

I'm going to kind of continue the conversation @Sombastate and I were having by elaborating on my thinking. My interpretation of the way the testing floor worked is there's a difference between the Severance doors on the testing floor and those on the severed floor/birthing cabin. I think each of the doors MDR helped prepare are specifically and separately coded to unlock a part of Gemma's chip for a different innie that can only exist on the testing floor. Like if Gemma went into the birthing cabin from the finale, she would revert to Ms. Casey, not one of her 25 other innies (or all of them at once which would probably overload her brain and kill her). To put it a different way, I think innies like Ms. Casey, Mark S., Helly, etc. are what could be considered generation 1 innies, while Gemma's innies are generation 2, and generation 2 is still in the development stage and can only exist on the testing floor. I think that's what Dr. Mauer means. If they take Gemma from the testing floor and she never returns, all those innies effectively die.


From there, whether the end goal was having Gemma's testing floor innies replicated for the anti pain/trauma/discomfort Severance chip the show was implying was the purpose of the experiments so those innies could serve as generic blank slates to be be the ones to endure the pain and suffering of the general public, I don't know. Part of me thinks that's implausible since an innie is still a construct of an individual's own psychological wiring. I would think that overwriting 25 versions of another person into a different person's brain would result in psychological chaos if not driving people to sheer insanity. But I don't know how else we were supposed to interpret Dr. Mauer telling Gemma that "you will see the world again and the world will see you"

But the point may be moot if they can't get Gemma and her chip back.

In any case, maybe there's a double meaning and he's thinking long term that if Gemma and her story are leveraged to destroy Lumon, it would mean the end of the lives of the innies, the way i!Mark speculated. The thing is, we have two seasons of this show not quite being Game of Thrones, as in, while bad things happen to these characters it's never quite as tragic as the worst possible outcome (e.g. Ned's death, the Red Wedding, Tyrion losing trial by combat, etc.)

I think bad things are still to come for the innies and outies and there will be continued struggle and conflict with Lumon, but I feel like Lumon mass wiping the innies is a bit too dark an outcome for this show. Maybe it happens as the season 3 big finale moment, but my expectation is that the eventual compromise solution is that the good guys will find a way to reintegrate everyone who severed. In a way, that's a loss for the innies because they lose their unique and separate identities and autonomy over their separate lives. But if an innie decides to live in perpetuity as their innie selves, then that just kills their outies and I can't see this show taking the moral stance that outies deserve to die as penance for creating the innies in the first place. Reintegration was introduced as a concept for a reason and I think that's the endgame. Convincing innies and outies alike that Severed existence is not feasible and that they should reintegrate to make their two halves whole.
Certainly plausible, but multiple characters also said that Gemma would be dead after Cold Harbor. I guess it's then up to interpretation yet again it they're referring to her outie personality or her physical being.
 
Certainly plausible, but multiple characters also said that Gemma would be dead after Cold Harbor. I guess it's then up to interpretation yet again it they're referring to her outie personality or her physical being.
Could be that but I think the alternative to killing Gemma's original consciousness is that they were literally going to kill her. I mean Cobel told Mark that after Cold Harbor he was done at Lumon because he served his purpose. After Cold Harbor, Gemma would have served hers. We don't have hard confirmation that the point of the experiments cold harbor was a part of was a multipurpose sever from pain/discomfort/trauma Severance chip but it was heavily implied. Whether that means Gemma's innies would live on in the new model chip is unknown and we might never get an answer.

The point is I have a hard time believing Dr. Mauer had some deeper meta concern for all the severed floor innies in that moment. It seems Project Gemma was his life's work and he was voicing his fear that all the innies in Gemma's head would die if they left. Why he'd think Gemma or Mark would give a shit is a different question.

My bigger concern is we've seen that Lumon has the capability of remotely overriding Severance chips (OTC and Glasgow we've already seen). I've spent a lot of time thinking about how next season's story can function and that's a huge complication for everyone involved. I'd have to assume that to free Gemma of those remote commands they'd either have to get her out of range of any Lumon HQs or go to Reghabi to remove or render the chip inert (unless Cobel has the medical training to do it without killing). As for the innies, I think the "clean slate" command is pretty self explanatory, it likely resets the innies to their day 1 state. So how do they manage to prevent this from happening to innie Mark? I've been thinking about the circumstances from the perspective that Lumon lost hard since the finale but I think they're going to go hellfire and fury going into the beginning of Season 3. But there has to be windows of possibility for the innies to resist. Still tough to think about how it all plays out.
 
Could be that but I think the alternative to killing Gemma's original consciousness is that they were literally going to kill her. I mean Cobel told Mark that after Cold Harbor he was done at Lumon because he served his purpose. After Cold Harbor, Gemma would have served hers. We don't have hard confirmation that the point of the experiments cold harbor was a part of was a multipurpose sever from pain/discomfort/trauma Severance chip but it was heavily implied. Whether that means Gemma's innies would live on in the new model chip is unknown and we might never get an answer.

The point is I have a hard time believing Dr. Mauer had some deeper meta concern for all the severed floor innies in that moment. It seems Project Gemma was his life's work and he was voicing his fear that all the innies in Gemma's head would die if they left. Why he'd think Gemma or Mark would give a shit is a different question.

My bigger concern is we've seen that Lumon has the capability of remotely overriding Severance chips (OTC and Glasgow we've already seen). I've spent a lot of time thinking about how next season's story can function and that's a huge complication for everyone involved. I'd have to assume that to free Gemma of those remote commands they'd either have to get her out of range of any Lumon HQs or go to Reghabi to remove or render the chip inert (unless Cobel has the medical training to do it without killing). As for the innies, I think the "clean slate" command is pretty self explanatory, it likely resets the innies to their day 1 state. So how do they manage to prevent this from happening to innie Mark? I've been thinking about the circumstances from the perspective that Lumon lost hard since the finale but I think they're going to go hellfire and fury going into the beginning of Season 3. But there has to be windows of possibility for the innies to resist. Still tough to think about how it all plays out.
I hear ya, but if they were literally going to kill her, then doesn't that render "you'll kill them all" moot? Like, how can he be concerned that they were going to 'kill' all of Gemma's severed personalities when the actual Lumon plan that he was actively helping them achieve was going to result in her death anyway? I think if anything his comment, true or not, was more of a last ditch effort to make them reconsider, not that outtie Mark would give a shit.

As far as S3 is concerned, I think the easy answer is the reintegration tease plays a much bigger factor. I suspect we'll have a moderate to heavy helping of outtie Mark on the severed floor.

A couple other general thoughts:

-Interesting now that both Marks are effectively killers. outtie Mark literally, and innie Mark with his team at the beginning of the season. I thought Dylan's comment of "they deserved to die" merited more of a considered response from Mark instead of him barely registering the consequences. Hopefully this is revisited in some capacity.

-Ricken was a waste this season. He was integrated so brilliantly in S1, and all we get in S2 is the notion of selling out, and then...nothing. I'm not sure he has much of a role to play moving forward, so at the very least, I hope they bring back some of his comedic relief.

-I thought the outtie to innie Dylan letter was surprisingly touching, and a nice little juxtaposition to the fractured nature of Mark's situation.

-I know don't where the rumor of John Turturro wanting to be written out of the show came from. By all accounts he'll be back. And even if it's in a limited capacity, that doesn't mean whoever he's talking to on the pay phone couldn't have a more prominent role. Speaking of that.....a pay phone?Damn that is niche. I felt compelled to look it up and I guess there are still a very limited # still in operation.

-Gemma is trending to be an all-time tragic character. Would love to see her with a bit more agency in S3. I saw a theory she was in on the whole death-faking thing. I can't imagine a justification for that which would make sense, even if it was Lumon misrepresenting the circumstances for what they were hiring her for.
 
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I hear ya, but if they were literally going to kill her, then doesn't that render "you'll kill them all" moot? Like, how can he be concerned that they were going to 'kill' all of Gemma's severed personalities when the actual Lumon plan that he was actively helping them achieve was going to result in her death anyway? I think if anything his comment, true or not, was more of a last ditch effort to make them reconsider, not that outtie Mark would give a shit.

As far as S3 is concerned, I think the easy answer is the reintegration tease plays a much bigger factor. I suspect we'll have a moderate to heavy helping of outtie Mark on the severed floor.

A couple other general thoughts:

-Interesting now that both Marks are effectively killers. outtie Mark literally, and innie Mark with his team at the beginning of the season. I thought Dylan's comment of "they deserved to die" merited more of a considered response from Mark instead of him barely registering the consequences. Hopefully this is revisited in some capacity.

-Ricken was a waste this season. He was integrated so brilliantly in S1, and all we get in S2 is the notion of selling out, and then...nothing. I'm not sure he has much of a role to play moving forward, so at the very least, I hope they bring back some of his comedic relief.

-I thought the outtie to innie Dylan letter was surprisingly touching, and a nice little juxtaposition to the fractured nature of Mark's situation.

-I know don't where the rumor of John Turturro wanting to be written out of the show came from. By all accounts he'll be back. And even if it's in a limited capacity, that doesn't mean whoever he's talking to on the pay phone couldn't have a more prominent role. Speaking of that.....a pay phone?Damn that is niche. I felt compelled to look it up and I guess there are still a very limited # still in operation.

-Gemma is trending to be an all-time tragic character. Would love to see her with a bit more agency in S3. I saw a theory she was in on the whole death-faking thing. I can't imagine a justification for that which would make sense, even if it was Lumon misrepresenting the circumstances for what they were hiring her for.
I'd imagine because the innies were coded to her chip and nowhere else. To get and replicate the innies created on the testing floor they'd need to kill her to remove the chip. Or removing the chip would kill her. I mean these are just my best guesses. I'm not gonna pretend to have the answers until the show confirms anything, but we might not get answers. I would think that effectively the Gemma project is dead unless they get it back. I mean part of me wonders if they could just use the data they gathered on Gemma to press on but Jame Eagan, Dr. Mauer and the nurse were all in a state of panic. Drummond was ready to kill Mark S to prevent him from interfering. I have to imagine thats either because they know Gemma escaping could doom the company or they needed her chip or both.

Agree on Ricken but I'm not sure if he needed to have more of a role than that really. Ricken was important in season 1 because his shitty writings inspired the innies' eventual rebellion (since the innies have no real concept of "good writing". All they had was Kier's handbook). Maybe they can write in his trying to manipulate Devon from working against Lumon so he can keep getting paid, but I never really loved the idea that he was secretly an Eagan or an inside man for the company. Either felt like a twist for the sake of it.

Agreed. At first I read it as, okay...hes saying he should just stay and continue living a disappointing existence? Cool outie Dylan, maybe yall should swap for a week and see how you like it? But after thinking about it some more, he gives his innie the agency to decide what he wants even if it comes at the expense of a steady paycheck.

That's another really compelling thing I keep thinking about. Who Turturro was talking to. I still think he was talking to someone in this secret organization Petey mentioned in season 1. The not whole mind collective that is resisting Lumon. I might need to rewatch season 1 but I think I remember the way he framed it was that they helped him resever, which means Reghabi is involved with them too. If that's who Irv was talking to, then those are the only three characters we know who are involved with them. I really hope we find out more but I'm not sure, if Turturro really wanted out, if he really needs to be involved. I'd prefer it but whoever is behind that group can be something of a standin. Like an anti-Name Eagan figure.

Agreed on Gemma. We don't know if she volunteered to be there or not. It's possible, but I'm struggling to see how. Like she'd have to knowingly disappear without saying goodbye to Mark. Even if Lumon lied and told her they'd tell Mark she'd be gone for a while or pass a message from her, you're right. It seems implausible. But it ultimately doesn't matter. She was held as a prisoner for human experimentation that really amounted to the torture of her but especially her innies. To go through all that and reunite with her husband who fought through hell to get to her only to watch him turn her back on her for another woman...I mean assuming Devon gets her out I'm sure she'll have it explained to her that his innie fell for Helly and didn't know who she was, but in that moment she had no way of knowing. And even beyond that, Mark is not leaving Lumon any time soon. Whether Lumon holds him as prisoner or not, innie Mark knows the second he steps past the Severance barrier, his outie is never coming back. The only wrinkle I can see with that is if Mark naturally continues and completes reintegration. But I wonder if that's even possible. There is such a clash in the desires and wants of both, I can see him getting close without a proper merging of two consciousnesses. But maybe the rub is that his health continues to deteriorate without Reghabi's medication. It was pretty heavily implied that Petey died because he wasn't taking the meds Reghabi prescribed him.

Rabid rant aside, the only improvement in Gemma's circumstances is she can see the world again and she's not being tortured by weird Lumon experiments anymore. She has to trade it for the torture of not knowing if the person she loves most is safe or if she can ever see him again. Lumon has inflicted suffering to a great deal of people, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that anyone has suffered more than her. Especially if it somehow gets revealed that Lumon interfered with her fertility. Because she was suffering before she ended up at Lumon.
 

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