Series Discussion: Columbus (3) vs Pittsburgh (2)

[Double-Shift Lasse]

direct cosmic retribution

I remember catching those guys at Little Brothers.

 

[Speedy Sanderson]

I really thought the Jackets would make this a battle and maybe win the series (suppose they still could, but we know that's not happening). However, I didn't think Bob would look this bad. I don't think he's injured, just totally messed-up between the ears right now. Real questions about whether he's the guy to win big in the postseason with.

All that said, I still consider this season a success even if they lose tomorrow. I didn't expect the team to make the playoffs, let alone be close. A pretty good young core of guys to build around, and a coach that knows what it takes to win it all.

Not to look too far ahead, but I wonder if this series has provided some insight for Jarmo and Davidson as to who to protect for the expansion draft.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I hope you're right, but when I look at the TBL roster for their cup year, I see a whole lot more offensive production.

2002-2003: total points from their top six forwards (Prospal, Lecavalier, Richards, St Louis, Boyle, Modin): 394
2003-2004: (St Louis, Stillman, Richards, Lecavalier, Modin, Andreychuck): 415.

Lecav, Richards and St Louis would have to rate as three of the top offensive threats of that general time period.

By contrast this year:
CBJ (Atkinson, Wennberg, Saad, Foligno, Gagner, Werenski): 322
Capitals: 376
Chicago: 364
Pittsburgh: 379

The ones that are really, to me, indicative of how bad our situation is vis-a-vis scoring are the other two young teams:
Toronto: 369
Edmonton: 363

Both those teams are already giving their first round opponents all they can handle without all this talk of "you have to learn how to win in the playoffs" that we're hearing for the CBJ. There's no substitute for players who are dangerous each time they handle the puck.

Great data/post!

Washington's top 6 scorers score 18% more points than the CBJs do. Pittsburgh's 16% and Chicago's 13%.

 

[DarkandStormy]

http://triblive.com/sports/kevingorman/12195731-74/gorman-blue-jackets-play-to-hit-penguins-to-win

“We're going to hit. That's a big part of who we are,” Tortorella said before the start of the series. “I think we lost some of that. I talked to our guys, during when we had that 16-game winning streak. We were filling the net. We forgot about who we were and what our foundation is, and that's a team that's going to bang and have some grind to its game.”

Torts is a dumb***. All the goodwill he built up...well, it's basically gone for me. We won a bunch of games, scored a lot, and he wasn't happy with our style of play. What an idiot.

 

[Viqsi]

http://triblive.com/sports/kevingorman/12195731-74/gorman-blue-jackets-play-to-hit-penguins-to-win



Torts is a dumb***. All the goodwill he built up...well, it's basically gone for me. We won a bunch of games, scored a lot, and he wasn't happy with our style of play. What an idiot.

It's not quite "all gone" for me, but yeah, I'm back to daydreaming about Ralph Krueger behind the bench.

 

[rICK88*]

Wouldn't have gotten to that point if the Werenski play and Kessel's horsecollar tackle were called correctly.

I'd like a call to go our way that isn't direct cosmic retribution for a bad call that went against us first.

There was a clear trip on Sid in game 1 or 2, can't remember but they missed an easy call on that. There were two high sticks that hit Pens players in the face that were not called, and Johnson should have been called for interference on Rust on a play that looked like it may have caused an injury, Rust went straight to the locker room after that, thank God he came back. Add in the puck going out of play and you get.......HOCKEY. The refs aren't all-seeing and they will miss things, it happens. But, good teams find ways to win even when things aren't going their way, it is part of the sport. That being said, so far the refs have been bad pretty evenly to both clubs, I can't see anyone saying the refs determined the outcome of this series at the end of the day.

 

[JKinCLE]

There was a clear trip on Sid in game 1 or 2, can't remember but they missed an easy call on that. There were two high sticks that hit Pens players in the face that were not called, and Johnson should have been called for interference on Rust on a play that looked like it may have caused an injury, Rust went straight to the locker room after that, thank God he came back. Add in the puck going out of play and you get.......HOCKEY. The refs aren't all-seeing and they will miss things, it happens. But, good teams find ways to win even when things aren't going their way, it is part of the sport. That being said, so far the refs have been bad pretty evenly to both clubs, I can't see anyone saying the refs determined the outcome of this series at the end of the day.

 

[rICK88*]

HAHA nice. Just pointing out the obvious really. Its like the whole baseball debate going on right now, people are talking about getting rid of the home plate umpire and using cameras and computers instead. To me, getting some calls wrong is part of the game and if it was too perfect that takes away from the game. BUT, that's just my opinion.

 

[Forepar]

I hope you're right, but when I look at the TBL roster for their cup year, I see a whole lot more offensive production.

2002-2003: total points from their top six forwards (Prospal, Lecavalier, Richards, St Louis, Boyle, Modin): 394
2003-2004: (St Louis, Stillman, Richards, Lecavalier, Modin, Andreychuck): 415.

Lecav, Richards and St Louis would have to rate as three of the top offensive threats of that general time period.

By contrast this year:
CBJ (Atkinson, Wennberg, Saad, Foligno, Gagner, Werenski): 322
Capitals: 376
Chicago: 364
Pittsburgh: 379

The ones that are really, to me, indicative of how bad our situation is vis-a-vis scoring are the other two young teams:
Toronto: 369
Edmonton: 363

Both those teams are already giving their first round opponents all they can handle without all this talk of "you have to learn how to win in the playoffs" that we're hearing for the CBJ. There's no substitute for players who are dangerous each time they handle the puck.

A+ post right there.

While you both have a valid point that CBJ lacks the top-level elite scorers in the top 6, CBJ is right there in overall goals scored for the season, whether that be bottom 6 or D scoring. Therefore, I am speculating that your point is that the elite goal scorers are the ones who score in the playoffs. To a degree yes, although that is not necessarily the case (see, e.g., Chicago, Washington).

CBJ has not played poorly. For the most part CBJ has played right with Pens, primarily due to top 4 D (other than when ZW was out last night). They just have not gotten a result. It's easy to think CBJ was right with the Pens during regular season until last 7 games of regular season when looking at point totals, etc... soo should beat them in playoffs, but that makes it easy to forget that the Pens are the defending SC champions - minus Letang, but mostly intact otherwise. and were incredible at home all season long.

Bob has been disappointing; his first gaffe in game 2 was a killer momentum-wise, but CBJ cannot expect to beat the Pens scoring 1 goal in each of games 1 and 2. Last night was predictable - CBJ spent huge emotion/energy in the first 7 minutes building a 3-1 lead, with 53 minutes still to play. The got back on their heels, with our (and maybe their) expectation that Bob would carry them home. Could he have - maybe; but he didn't, and frankly that was way too much time to think Pitt would be held to 3.

The twists and turns of last night's game, both against and for, were almost beyond comprehension (horsecollar non-call against Jones on Pens' goal, not blowing the whistle on ZW's bloodletting, the puck hitting the CBJ door on the tying goal, Dubi taking aim at Fleury's forehead in OT.) I generally don't like ifs and buts; just wins and losses matter in the present. But ifs and buts do have some relevance to planning for the future. If a few "ifs and buts" are the only things separating CBJ and Pens from a 1-2 or 2-1 series instead of 0-3, then that sucks for this year, but the talent level will take care of itself over time, assuming the pipeline is properly primed (PLD, Abramov, Bjorkstrand still a prospect in my mind, and Milano). If there are more than a few "ifs/buts" and CJB is far-removed from being at Pens level, then need for immediate influx of elite talent is needed. 3-0 in a playoff series sounds/feels horrible and not at their level -down 1-2 would feel like "GAME ON."

If you would have told me that we would start Gabe Carlsson with 3 AHL games with Harrington on D and be in any game, let alone all 3, and would lose ZW for latter part of 2nd, early part of 3rd and all of OT in last night's game, the guess would be losses of 6-2 in games 1 & 2 and a quick OT last night if we even got that far.

I don't think the skill level is that far off. (A) With regard to skill level, what I see s our veteran play in the F group has been atrocious (veteran meaning Hartnell, Foligno, Dubi and Gagner). None of those 4 have ever been considered elite.
Foligno can't find his behind or the puck with either or both hands right now. Hartnell needs a rocking chair (sorry, what I saw last night without any misgivings). Gagner is invisible. Dubi is a mix of really good plays with some not-so-smart plays. 3 of the 4 are too much alike. (B) The skill is Cam/Saad, whom I both still consider young, and Wennberg (Bjorkstrand just not there), with good grinders with some goal scoring in Boone and Andy. However, Wennberg (and Wild Bill) have been getting schooled primarily by Malkin (imagine that). Wild Bill is not a big concern to me, he is 3rd/4th liner who generally does his job, but cannot score. Wennberg has faded of late, not sure if worn out, not big enough, not shooting enough, not talented enough or simply on a line with Foligno and others struggling to get going. I think he's got 1C capability - imo he's the one Torts is primarily talking about when Torts speaks to young guys getting the experience of the hunt and playoffs. (C) The D corp creates tough issues for us at both ends when 53-54 are on the ice. The offense is non-existent with them - they have not moved the puck quickly enough, we chip it out, so we either get hemmed in or simply give up possession and change as a successful shift. That was not our mantra when going strong. It wasn't just 4 lines, it was also 3 D pairings that we had no concerns about when anyone went over the boards. Not bashing 53 or 54, how would it not be this way against the Pens with their limited experience and lack of ZW talents. Maybe they will be better in future years - not now. (D) Bob isn't the Bob we needed to have; we needed Vezina Bob, got Bob Lite. He needed to be outstanding every game for CBJ to win in 7 games. He was fine in game 1, bad mistake in game 2, nervous in game 3. Some of that is seeing 53-54 as a D combo - and thus trying to do too much. 53-54 have NOT moved Pens out of the front of the net - the Pens are camped there. They may not have been the direct cause for a few of the goals, but they are part of the 40+ SOG against and the tension level. I understand Torts concern about speed (i.e. Quincey's lack thereof), but I disagree with that level of that concern. Neither 53 or 54 have moved anyone out of the crease. And that is exactly what the D corp has done for Bob all year, and Quincey can do. Pittsburgh is camped in front, and that is exhausting even when you do get a decent view of the puck later. And the limited minutes 53-54 play together resulted in the top 3 (minus ZW) D playing so many minutes they couldn't move Pens out in OT either. This team is not constructed on elite talent but on balance, and Torts went away from that with the D corp in the playoffs - and that hurt Bob as much as anyone.

Had CBJ won any one of games 1, 2 or 3, the series would be 1-2, Tuesday's game 4 at home would be to even it up, and we (and the Jackets themselves) would feel very much alive (well, if ZW were still in the lineup). So before the nightmares of a sweep change the long-term picture, maybe we should look at the entire year and determine what the need really is as the window of opportunity opened this year. The CBJ scored by committee in November/December; if you can show me that doesn't work in late April as a matter of general hockey sense, then I get it. But if the late-season and playoff offensive dropoff instead is because this just happens to be when it happened, but not why, then imo I'd rather not go get Duchene but count on Wennberg and Bjorkstrand getting stronger/better, on a few studs getting their act timed up with playoffs better (Saad, Cam until last night's welcome explosion), and getting the PLDs, Bjorkstrands and Abramovs in here in place of Hartnell, Gagner and even Foligno in the next few years - and Dubi too. We will find out if Bob is playoff capable or not - no real choice there for 2 years. He was beyond stellar for the entire season when it counted (until March 28) but didn't re-find stellar by April 12 (game 1). The entire team cratered upon the clinch -so who affected whom is difficult to say.

I know, I am stepping on Foligno fans here....he has great possession stats, he's the C, etc...
I'm not much on advanced stats - the eye test still matters most to me. What I see is a lack of ability to handle a puck over what is now an extended period (outright whiff last night); if he's overpaid on a 3rd/4th line, fine, but to put him out there with Wennberg/Saad is draining on everyone. Was glad to see Nick moved to a different line last night, but would have preferred to have seen Boone with 13-17 rather than Foligno.

Rambling - frustrated, sad, but not angry or seeing a massive move needed, other than to keep the young guns moving up. The ride this year has been joyful, wishing it would continue for another 6-7 weeks.

 

[EspenK]

I'm not sure I buy this whole we have played with them the whole series...they have dominated keeping possession in our zone, they have completely flummoxed us trying to enter their zone. They have had better scoring chances and their goalie has outplayed Bob.They have had more odd man rushes.

 

[JKinCLE]

I'm not sure I buy this whole we have played with them the whole series...they have dominated keeping possession in our zone, they have completely flummoxed us trying to enter their zone. They have had better scoring chances and their goalie has outplayed Bob.They have had more odd man rushes.

You shouldn't buy it. I agree with you 100%. The Pens have been flat out better aside from a few spurts here and there. They can turn it on when they want and control the play. Bob has been awful. Half of the goals scored have gone in off of his pads. If I wasn't so disgusted with his play, I'd feel sorry for him. We all know how hard Bob works, but he is getting a bad rep as a playoff choker.

 

[Heinze 57]

There was a clear trip on Sid in game 1 or 2, can't remember but they missed an easy call on that. There were two high sticks that hit Pens players in the face that were not called, and Johnson should have been called for interference on Rust on a play that looked like it may have caused an injury, Rust went straight to the locker room after that, thank God he came back. Add in the puck going out of play and you get.......HOCKEY. The refs aren't all-seeing and they will miss things, it happens. But, good teams find ways to win even when things aren't going their way, it is part of the sport. That being said, so far the refs have been bad pretty evenly to both clubs, I can't see anyone saying the refs determined the outcome of this series at the end of the day.

The refs have been pretty bad to both clubs, but not equally bad. You can't disown that two of your goals last night were directly caused by poor officiating missing obvious calls. Our guy got shot in the face and they did nothing about it and you scored because of it. Your gripes pale in comparison.

 

[End of Line]

Jackets are young, and it's showing; Pens are champs, and it's showing, too. CBJ are missing a bona-fide offensive talent, I believe- in this vein, it's fair to suggest Saad has been a bit of a disappointment.

First off I'm not here to start anything lol. I was at the CBJ/Flyers game a couple of weeks ago and was chatting with the CBJ fan who I went with and I mentioned the need for a better 1-2 punch other than Dubisnky/Wennberg. I personally feel that someone like Duchene would do wonders for your team. The person kind of blew it off. Your depth on the wings especially prospect wise is DEEP. I'd do anything to have Bjorkstrand on the Pens. I just feel that once the CBJ get that center you could be unstoppable. Wennberg could always take that next step and become that piece in the upcoming seasons though and he's still only 22. Anyways, flame away if you want lol.

 

[rICK88*]

I'm not sure I buy this whole we have played with them the whole series...they have dominated keeping possession in our zone, they have completely flummoxed us trying to enter their zone. They have had better scoring chances and their goalie has outplayed Bob.They have had more odd man rushes.

You are exactly right on all points here. It is not that difficult to see what is happening in this series....the Pens just have too much for CBJ to handle. The Pens are keeping CBJ on the edges and clogging up the middle which is not allowing CBJ to have clear runs at he net. The biggest weapon the Pens have, and I watch every game they play so trust me when I say this, they can almost score at will. They are able to handle the rush from teams in the first period and then come back and attack once CBJ starts to settle into the game. Once that happens, they turn up the speed and teams are chasing them around the second half of the game.

I should look the numbers up, but the amount of games the Pens have been down 2-3 goals after the first period and then come back to win is astonishing. They have been doing that since last year on a regular basis.

Another thing I see a lot of people here saying is "CBJ dominated them through most of the game" through games 1 and 2. In both games CBJ did do that in the first, but the 3rd period in those games is deceptive. By the 3rd in games 1 and 2, the Pens have a lead and started hanging back and playing D so of course it is going to look like the other team is outplaying them.

The Pens seem to be able to turn the speed up at any time, and when they start skating, they are really fast. It seems like other teams run out of gas from playing so hard in the 1st half of the game and that when the Pens lay it on them. Most teams can not afford to sit back and wait for their opponent to gas out, but it seems the Pens can since they can score goals in bunches.

Who knows, I may just be a total homer (which I admit I am, I grew up 30 miles from Pitt and have been a fan since I was a kid in the 70s) so maybe I am biased and just think that's what I am seeing. But time and time again I see teams come out doing one of two things.......either trying to play super fast to match the Pens speed, or come out chasing Pens players trying to check them and wear them down. Problem is, teams that come out playing that fast normally get tired around halfway through the 2nd. And teams that try to wear them down through checking, well I can't put my finger on why, maybe conditioning, but that just doesn't seem to work against the Pens....they just play through it. I heard one of the guys say it in between periods last game, can't remember who but he said "CBJ is trying to check them and wear them out but that doesn't work on this Pens team....they are a different type of cat" and from what I have seen he is right. I guess you can say that is one of the strengths of the Pens, they are forcing teams to leave their usual game plan and try one of those styles instead of just doing what they normally do and play their regular style of hockey. Anyhow, sorry for rambling on and on.....I am a huge fan of Hockey above all else and I have a lot of respect for your team. I think this series is the next step in building a good rivalry between our two clubs and I am looking forward to alot of great games front these teams in the future!

 

[Dirtfloor]

There was a clear trip on Sid in game 1 or 2, can't remember but they missed an easy call on that. There were two high sticks that hit Pens players in the face that were not called, and Johnson should have been called for interference on Rust on a play that looked like it may have caused an injury, Rust went straight to the locker room after that, thank God he came back. Add in the puck going out of play and you get.......HOCKEY. The refs aren't all-seeing and they will miss things, it happens. But, good teams find ways to win even when things aren't going their way, it is part of the sport. That being said, so far the refs have been bad pretty evenly to both clubs, I can't see anyone saying the refs determined the outcome of this series at the end of the day.

Ran out of gloat over at the Pens board?

 

[CharlotteJacket]

Whatever the question was, Sonny Milano is not the answer. He only got 6:47 of ice time in a 70+ minute game. The time he was out there, he was very pedestrian.

In the limited time and games Milano has played over the last two years, has he given anyone a reason to say "Damn, where has this kid been?"

 

[CharlotteJacket]

Saad and Bob are the two biggest disappointments of this series. Hartnell is just about done being relevant in this league.

Only have two more years of a $4.75 mm cap hit

 

[rICK88*]

Ran out of gloat over at the Pens board?

If it looks like I am gloating, I apologize......not my intention at all!! I enjoy hockey, have been a fan since I played as a 3 year old kid. I register for whatever team we have a series with every year to discuss hockey and I try my best not to be a jerk. If I have come across that way on this board I am sorry, honestly not what I am here to do. I just like discussing the series with both sides.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I'm not sure I buy this whole we have played with them the whole series...they have dominated keeping possession in our zone, they have completely flummoxed us trying to enter their zone. They have had better scoring chances and their goalie has outplayed Bob.They have had more odd man rushes.

CBJ fans who are saying that the Jackets are playing as well as the Pens are in a deep state of denial.

And, yes, Bob has sucked. I still say if you give them Bob and us Fleury, they're still probably leading 3-0, at worst 2-1. Fleury gave up 3 ****ing goals in the first 6 minutes yesterday.

 

[rICK88*]

CBJ fans who are saying that the Jackets are playing as well as the Pens are in a deep state of denial.

And, yes, Bob has sucked. I still say if you give them Bob and us Fleury, they're still probably leading 3-0, at worst 2-1. Fleury gave up 3 ****ing goals in the first 6 minutes yesterday.

Yeah but he only gave up 2 goals total in the previous 2 games!

 

[Privet]

I predicted Columbus winning in 7 for my NHL bracket. Could still happen... technically...

 

[Viqsi]

First off I'm not here to start anything lol. I was at the CBJ/Flyers game a couple of weeks ago and was chatting with the CBJ fan who I went with and I mentioned the need for a better 1-2 punch other than Dubisnky/Wennberg. I personally feel that someone like Duchene would do wonders for your team. The person kind of blew it off. Your depth on the wings especially prospect wise is DEEP. I'd do anything to have Bjorkstrand on the Pens.

Anything?

* * *​

CBJ fans who are saying that the Jackets are playing as well as the Pens are in a deep state of denial.

I don't think anyone's made that assertion.

 

[OnYourIgnoreList]

Therefore, I am speculating that your point is that the elite goal scorers are the ones who score in the playoffs. To a degree yes, although that is not necessarily the case (see, e.g., Chicago, Washington).

I think I'd break it down like this:
1. Hockey is a sport where chaos (or improvisation) tends to dictate success.
2. Skill is the ability to both create and take advantage of chaos.

Simultaneously, I think the biggest difference between regular season and playoff hockey is systemic: teams tend to play a little looser on the regular season and then tighten up their (defensive) systems in the playoffs. So a team like the CBJ can succeed with a simpler, proverbial "north south" style in the regular season but will be stymied in the playoffs, when improvisation is the currency of success.

What really stood out to me was the fundamentally simple approach Pittsburgh has taken to shutting down our offense: collapse into the slot, between the circles and create so much traffic that pucks can't get through. They're not worried about puck movement at all, and I think that's because fundamentally we don't have really effective/dangerous/creative passers on the team.

Wennberg may be our best puck distributor, but he tends to do it from the perimeter - he's not dealing across lanes in traffic typically. So Pittsburgh is challenging us to "pull" on their alignment - force them to float out of the collapse by virtue of the dangerous angles, etc we're going to create/find, and we don't have the puck skill to do it. Atkinson is a great scorer, but he's not a dynamic threat. He reminds me a little of James Neal: Neal is not a guy I say "oh crap" when he's hadling the puck. When he's not scoring, he's basically not threatening, and I think we have a lot of those guys on the team right now.

 

[Kev22]

I've got to quit reading the mains. JFC, I'm pretty sure that Penguins translates to insufferable in yinzer. For fans that root for the reigning champs, I've never seen such a heavy persecution complex. I guess I've been watching a different Jackets team all year because apparently the Jackets are the dirtiest team in the history of the league because someone has the gall to touch Crosby. Just enjoy rooting for your team, holy hell, the Jackets only wish they had that much skill and can flip the switch like they can.

 

[TheStatican]

Its like the whole baseball debate going on right now, people are talking about getting rid of the home plate umpire and using cameras and computers instead. To me, getting some calls wrong is part of the game and if it was too perfect that takes away from the game.

I'm done with baseball until they do that.
This isn't the 1900's anymore, we have the technology to do things better so why the hell would you not want to? Having said the equivalent wouldn't be as easy to do in hockey. You can't exactly determine whats a penalty by some physical measurement.

For fans that root for the reigning champs, I've never seen such a heavy persecution complex.

Part of our complex about it is because of how many injuries we get year in year out. It doesn't help that a couple of our core players seem to be made out of glass.